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How Dose Starfleet Pay For Stuff?

I think how it's worked is:

Inside UFP = no money
Outside UFP = Federation Credits (as in the charge account Beverly used)

How does it work exactly? Same way as Mike Okuda said about how the transporter works: "Very well, thank you."

Also, the point is that they accommodate the locals. Credits for money economies; barter in barter economies; no money in UFP-similar economies. I can't imagine the Organians care about money. The Ferengi absolutely need it. The Terellians maybe will trade a holoprojector for a hypospray, but demand something material and useful rather than a credit or a lump of metal. Remember, they're aliens. Each will view things differently.
 
And when the Federation wants to recruit a new world, all they have to do is hand replicator technology to that world. It will ruin their economy overnight. After that, they have no choice but to join.

Quark has access to replicators. Federation people are clearly not paying him with replicated stuff (if replicators could produce precious metals etc, Quark would just stay in all day replicating rubies etc). Trill have access to replicators but Ezri's family runs a mine on a depressing planet full of shady characters. Replicators clearly have limits.

Outside UFP = Federation Credits (as in the charge account Beverly used)

But where do the credits come from? Who put them in Beverly's account (why do she even have an account?). Wouldnt it be easier just to say... she gets paid.
 
The problem is expecting the 'credits' to function as a present day currency, ie: it has independent value, with replicators and limitless energy, credits could be very different. For instance everyone could be entitled to 3 meal credits/day, they can be redeemed at a replicator, a restaurant, the type/amount of food is irrelevant as long is it equivalent to one meal (over ordering isnt a problem as all leftovers are recycled in the replicator). Similarly there could be credits for clothes (say a fraction of an item/day) a person's 'account' merely keeps track of this.

Mining is still required as even replicators require raw material and it is more efficient to replicate a steel knife out iron and coal than it is to make it out of hydrogen (just because you have limitless energy doesn't mean you are wasteful)

The federation can always transfer raw materials to foreign powers to settle individuals accounts, most likely this takes place as part of a trade agreement (all those federation diplomats have to be doing something!).

This kind of economy does require some leaps of imagination and assumption, but is theoretically possible given a certain level of technology, mainly limitless energy and replicators.
 
The problem is expecting the 'credits' to function as a present day currency, ie: it has independent value...
Currency has no value of it's own, it represents value.

For instance everyone could be entitled to 3 meal credits/day ...
What about creatures analogous to Hobbits, who eat seven meals a day (breakfast, second breakfast, elevenses, luncheon, afternoon tea, dinner, and supper), why would they get "paid" more food that a Human? One of the novels had a Federation species that was the size of elephants, you can imagine how much they eat. Sound like an inequitable pay scale.

Similarly there could be credits for clothes (say a fraction of an item/day) a person's 'account' merely keeps track of this.
I have (confession) 32 pairs of shoes or boots. In all honesty I don't need this many, however I want that many. There would have to be some mechanism (like income) for people who wish to have more than is allocated to obtain their desires. Unless you want some group (the government?) to decide how many shoes a person is allowed to have.

Instead of allocating meals and clothing, just pay people for their labors and then leave it to the individual to decide on meals and clothing without concerning themselves with how much they're permitted to have.

If they want something from the replicator (or a non-replicated source) pick-out/order it, and pay the cost for what the replicator produces.

Unless the whole purpose isn't food and clothing, but rather control of the populace.
 
I tend to limit the "no money" thing to earth, rather than Starfleet and the Federation. The way it works in my mind is that among humans there has been a cultural paradigm shift. Humans have gathered into small tribal communities of about 200 people. Among these related communities all resources are given to the tribe. The needs and wants of individual tribal members are met from the tribal resources. People contribute because it both benefits themselves and their family. They do not need to charge money for those things they produce because they have access the resources they need through the tribe.

Determining what a individual is given cannot be trusted to the heavy hand of a government. Rather it would be determined through joint consensus between the tribe and individual.

Still confused? Think of it like this. A couple get married. They pool all their resources into one account. They both have access to the account for their needs and wants. But those needs and wants are determine by joint consensus.

This seems strange to use because of our highly individualistic and metropolitan nature. We frequently live among and deal with people we are not related to and thus have no vested interest in. By bringing communities back to small tribal-family groups individualism can be broken down and our social nature can take over.

These tribal groups could then be gathered into Bands or Clans of more distant relations. These could then be group together into even more distant relations; until the entire planet is grouped together.

This way the entire planet could operate without money, because everyone receives their needs and wants from their tribe.

I imagine this could be in place by the mid 22nd century. However, because cultures are constantly changing, this system would different by the 23rd and 24th centuries as presented in ST and ST:TNG.
 
It doesn't, Picard said so, next.
It does, Beverly Crusher said so in the pilot, next.

I'll see your Beverly and Picard, and raise you a Jake Sisko.

The whole concept is really convoluted, since Trek refused to take a single position.

Jake's statement and situation strongly suggests everything is free for humans as long as they stay on earth, but once they leave it they have to use money.

But the deeper you look into this, the stranger it gets. That means all the businesses on earth are giving away their services or goods, and people work for literally nothing-- no compensation.

And is there an all purpose replicator in every home that gives you whatever you want, whenever you want?

Or do you go to a separate facility to use a special clothes replicator? But wouldn't that be a store, and would need someone to run it -- who's a volunteer, no compensation?

The most logical (but unlikely) scenario to me is that everyone is employed, and thanks to replicators, everything is cheap and easily available to everyone.

The replicators may have a limit function if you run out of credits or whatever and then you can't get whatever you want. Maybe enough to keep you fed and clothed.


I don't think this scenerio is likely because it clashes with Trek's utopian view that on earth there's absolutely no poverty or want, so I don't think Trek would ever suggest anything less than that.
 
And is there an all purpose replicator in every home that gives you whatever you want, whenever you want?

Not in every home. The Picard family vineyard, for example, doesn't have replicators; Robert refused to allow them in the home.

Which begs the question, of course, that if the Federation economy supposedly depends on replicators, what happens with those who won't use replicators? ;)
 
Credits are canonical. There were used in "Trouble With Tribbles" by Cyrano Jones for tribble sales. There may have been other references, that's just the one that comes readily to mind. If it's all digital, closely and viciously monitored, regulated and brokered by a central subspace data hub with no actual physical currency, then it is replicator-proof. Much like bitcoin.

Then there is the curious Ferengi gold-pressed latinum. When Morn absconded with the latinum portion of his fortune in "Who Mourns for Morn?", Quark referred to the remains as "just worthless gold" (despite the stupid contradiction in "The Last Outpost" from earlier Ferengi about the high value of Fed comm badges being made out of gold). The implication being, gold is easily replicatable, but latinum is not. latinum infused or "pressed" into gold is what makes it valuable, and it must be a process which cannot be reproduced by a replicator.

So, in two forms, there is canonical proof that currency exists. Which does lead one to wonder why the blatant contradiction by countless characters, including Kirk and Picard, maintains that money no longer exists. Or perhaps it no longer literally exists in its current 20th/21st century form of paper currency, but as mentioned above, either in a highly regulated "bitcoin" fashion or in a non-replicatable "latinum" fashion.

Either way, like I mentioned in the "French Language" thread regarding the universal translator, and the ever-present "is Starfleet military?" debate, or the refit Constitution-class/Enterprise-class/Consitution II-class/Starship-class debate (is it even canonically referred to as a "heavy cruiser"?), the money thing should be viewed with extreme suspension of disbelief.
 
Then there is the curious Ferengi gold-pressed latinum. When Morn absconded with the latinum portion of his fortune in "Who Mourns for Morn?", Quark referred to the remains as "just worthless gold" (despite the stupid contradiction in "The Last Outpost" from earlier Ferengi about the high value of Fed comm badges being made out of gold). The implication being, gold is easily replicatable, but latinum is not. latinum infused or "pressed" into gold is what makes it valuable, and it must be a process which cannot be reproduced by a replicator.

I just rationalize it by saying that Latinum was discovered(or made) sometime between those two episodes. Perhaps large deposits of gold were also found during this time by the Ferengi.

Planets have different composition than earth so It is conceivable that some planet might have a higher gold content thus decreasing it's value.

I remember an episode of Lost in Space where they went looking for lost treasure. The treasure turned out to be bars of iron.
 
Outside UFP = Federation Credits (as in the charge account Beverly used)

But where do the credits come from? Who put them in Beverly's account (why do she even have an account?). Wouldnt it be easier just to say... she gets paid.

"Credits" probably come from a Federation bank. Maybe the Bank of Bolius is like the UFP Fed (humans invented Starfleet; Vulcans invented tractor beems; maybe this is a Bolian contribution).

Again, some aliens need to be dealt with with money. For others who want only barter, maybe there's a department of the "Federation Treasury" that processes those transactions.

The Sikarians from VOY's "Prime Factors" decided they have enough money and barterable goods and value only creative things like literature. With aliens like them, another system would need to be created...you can't just stick a copy of War and Peace in every Federation citizen's personal bank account: once one citizen sells their copy, everyone else's is obsolete; so again different systems need to be devised to accommodate needs of different economies.
 
I tend to limit the "no money" thing to earth, rather than Starfleet and the Federation.

Agreed, except I'd say it seems unnecessary on starfleet vessels as well. That could just be due to universally accessed replicators tho, as well as military discipline.

But yeah, I'm going with the idea now that the moneyless utopia is pretty strictly Earth. Not the colonies, not trading vessels, not starbases. Maybe Vulcan and other systems don't use money but not due to anything humans did.
 
^ Because humans are better than everyone else? The elite humans of Earth especially?

How dystopian.
 
Agreed, except I'd say it seems unnecessary on starfleet vessels as well. That could just be due to universally accessed replicators tho, as well as military discipline.
There's a scene in TNG where Worf is "shopping" for a wedding gift, He considers a vase. If Worf replicated that vase I believe he would of had to pay for it, if only to compensate Starfleet for the power consumed. It would have come out of his pay. When people order drinks in TenForward, I think they buy them, just as modern naval officers would at a officers club.

Maybe Vulcan and other systems don't use money but not due to anything humans did.
Actually I could see the Vulcans running the Ferengi in circle in a business deal.
 
Agreed, except I'd say it seems unnecessary on starfleet vessels as well. That could just be due to universally accessed replicators tho, as well as military discipline.
There's a scene in TNG where Worf is "shopping" for a wedding gift, He considers a vase. If Worf replicated that vase I believe he would of had to pay for it, if only to compensate Starfleet for the power consumed. It would have come out of his pay. When people order drinks in TenForward, I think they buy them, just as modern naval officers would at a officers club.

Maybe Vulcan and other systems don't use money but not due to anything humans did.
Actually I could see the Vulcans running the Ferengi in circle in a business deal.
What the going rate for kevas and trillium on Ferenginar?
 
And is there an all purpose replicator in every home that gives you whatever you want, whenever you want?

Not in every home. The Picard family vineyard, for example, doesn't have replicators; Robert refused to allow them in the home.

Which begs the question, of course, that if the Federation economy supposedly depends on replicators, what happens with those who won't use replicators? ;)

That does raise some interesting questions that leaves you with some odd conclusions.

This would have to mean Robert Picard and all the others who don't use replicators, are vegetarians. Humans don't keep animals for food, and only the replicator seems to provide meat.

It's a taboo for humans to use animals for meat.

Plus, I think this creates two views on how replicators in an economy work-- one social, the other capitalist.

The socialist idea is based on defeating poverty. Replicators are provided and installed by the government. They supply the energy. You can get whatever you want whenever you want.

If it's capitalist, then the replicators are manufactured by various companies and you buy one. You pay someone to service them. You have to pay to make them work, but everything it provides is dirt cheap.

There's your motivation to work. You have a poverty destroying device that still requires payment in order to operate.

The problem is, Trek seems to lean strongly towards the socialist idea.

Abundance for everyone, just about everything is free, because we now have the technology to make it free.
 
i notice that a lot of this discussion focuses on replicators. What if we tried one of these discussions but limited it to pre-replicator times. What different conclusions would we come to?
 
^^^ I believe that's because all the statements made about not having money came from those who originate from eras with replication technology. The existence of said technology would necessarily change the fundamental nature of a currency-based system.

I can't remember if they gave any mention to financial exchange in Enterprise like that, either for or against. It's been so long. Anyone recall some passing line of dialog about "getting paid" or something?
 
It seems this thread about the Federation's economy has been hijacked by a debate over replicators. Luckily, I have opinions about both.

It's been mentioned several times behind the scenes that replicators definitely have limits. This is why they still need mining, trade relations, and the Utopia Planitia shipyards.

I would even challenge that replicators may only be able to synthesize organic compounds (food and clothing) and simple molecules (water). So, for instance, when Picard orders his Earl Grey, the replicator might provide the tea, but the glass or thermos is transported from the galley (or forged from a finite supply of raw materials on board that can't be replicated). Having said that, I would welcome any examples to the contrary, I just can't think of any off the top of my head.

The existence of strict replicator rations on Voyager further implies that replicated products can't appear from nothing; finite raw materials must be involved and the Laws of Thermodynamics (mainly, energy is lost in the process) still apply.

Which leads us to the economy. While the details are often vague, Roddenberry's intent is not. He clearly meant to show a society that does not base its health or long-term success on economic growth. By the 23rd/24th century, a cultural shift has taken place whereby values like individual growth and sustainable lifestyles trump the desire to horde materials or accumulate wealth for its own sake. FYI: This is not fantasy. Current day economists contemplate and debate the feasibility of switching to a global, post-capitalist, zero-growth economy as an important aspect of reaching a sustainable society.

I would expect that Federation credits are used as a kind of allowance that allows people to accumulate a reasonable amount of nonessential products based on personal taste. And I assume that some sort of macro-bartering trade system allows the Federation to import and export goods and raw materials based on need.

I've always viewed the Federation as something more analogous to the European Union rather than the United States. That is to say that all members agree to a unified code of justice, basic sentient-life rights, and common defense, but other aspects of society like economies and trade are largely left to individual members. As such, we may often see one member world that participates in the common Federation Credit currency, and another which does not (just like the Euro).
 
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It seems this thread about the Federation's economy has been hijacked by a debate over replicators.
"Hijacked"? That's a bit harsh. When it comes to resource allocation in the 23rd/24th century, replicators are at the very core of the discussion.

It's been mentioned several times behind the scenes that replicators definitely have limits. This is why they still need mining, trade relations, and the Utopia Planitia shipyards.

I would even challenge that replicators may only be able to synthesize organic compounds (food and clothing) and simple molecules (water). So, for instance, when Picard orders his Earl Grey, the replicator might provide the tea, but the glass or thermos is transported from the galley (or forged from a finite supply of raw materials on board that can't be replicated). Having said that, I would welcome any examples to the contrary, I just can't think of any off the top of my head.

The existence of strict replicator rations on Voyager further implies that replicated products can't appear from nothing; finite raw materials must be involved and the Laws of Thermodynamics (mainly, energy is lost in the process) still apply.
No debate on the physical material limitations of replicators, but so long as their is a large supply of deuterium or some other replenishable raw material, the replicators can just keep on chugging at any scale and quantity.

As for examples of large-scale replicators, Memory Alpha speaks true on the concept of "Industrial Replicators" as being more than glorified Earl Grey Tea delivery systems:
An industrial replicator was a large-scale replicator, typically used for construction purposes.
In 2373, Pascal Fullerton claimed that Risa was an illusion created by industrial replicators, seismic regulators and a weather control network. (DS9: "Let He Who Is Without Sin...")
Later that year, Odo discovered that a saboteur overrode the security blocks on the industrial replicator on Level 17 of Deep Space 9. He was unable to determine what was replicated because the memory core had been wiped. (DS9: "By Inferno's Light")
In 2374, following the outbreak of the Dominion War and the capture of Deep Space 9, the Cardassian government gave fifteen industrial replicators to Bajor. (DS9: "Sons and Daughters")
Which leads us to the economy. While the details are often vague, Roddenberry's intent is not. He clearly meant to show a society that does not base its health or long-term success on economic growth. By the 23rd/24th century, a cultural shift has taken place whereby values like individual growth and sustainable lifestyles trump the desire to horde materials or accumulate wealth for its own sake.
Roddenberry's "vision" is not at debate here. What is at debate are Picard's and Kirk's canonical (and not-vague) assertions that no money exists in the 23rd and 24th century which are strongly contradicted by equally canonical (also not-vague) proof of the opposite notion, and the existence of Gold Pressed Latinum which, if replicators can replicate anything, how is that Ferengi currency not materially worthless as well?
FYI: This is not fantasy.
Yeah. It is.
Current day economists contemplate and debate the feasibility of switching to a global, post-capitalist, zero-growth economy as an important aspect of reaching a sustainable society.
Economists can contemplate and debate all they like. Until their ruminations become feasible in practice, it remains all that it is, a leftist utopian fantasy that invariably fails to take into account that sticky little business called human nature and the need to hoard resources. Some would call it self-absorbed, others would call it survival. Regardless of the nomenclature, to assume otherwise is, by definition, fantasy.

I've always viewed the Federation as something more analogous to the European Union rather than the United States. That is to say that all members agree to a unified code of justice, basic sentient-life rights, and common defense, but other aspects of society like economies and trade are largely left to individual members. As such, we may often see one member world that participates in the common Federation Credit currency, and another which does not (just like the Euro).
Since Roddenberry conceived of the Federation in TOS Trek long before the EU, and 2 of its 3 primary characters are from the former United States (Kirk from Iowa and McCoy from Georgia), it's far more American in analogy.

I agree that TNG might flirt more with EU-like socialist/globalist principals, but it, too, was conceived and produced in the mid-late 80's, 5-10 years before the EU was constituted in the early 90's.
 
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