Problem is? Trek doesn't show this happening, we never saw the guy vacuuming the floors at Starfleet Academy in the act of volunteering.
We never see anyone paying at Sisko's restaurant, but neither is there dialog that the food is free.
How Dose Starfleet Pay For Stuff?
- Thread starter elax92
- Start date
We never see anyone paying at Sisko's restaurant, but neither is there dialog that the food is free.
Why?
Why not volunteer to build star ships? Or volunteer to eat cakes on a beach while you write that novel, paint that picture, write that song?
Put me in the Federation and I'll volunteer to fix waste extraction units for the rest of my days.
But this brings up another point. What you mean to say is fix toilets. Who volunteers to fix broken toilets as their life's bliss? Well honestly, if they've mastered FTL travel, matter-energy teleportation, material replication, etc why the hell wouldn't they have created a bathroom roomba?
When Trek get's lazy, it assumes everything will be as it is today, only called something else. A "waste extraction unit" instead of toilet. "Grab your space-wrench, Johnson! I've got a hover-pipe loose, and you're just the holo-plumber to fix it!"As Riker said in "Up the Long Ladder," "the ship will clean itself."
"He said clean itself, not fix itself!" ...They've mastered FTL, I think they've got this.
I Posted at some length earlier, to the OP Original Question, but this little turdlette of an issue, regarding Star Fleet "Excretion Acceptence and Deposit Recepticles" deserves some attention.
With regard to breakdowns and needed maintenance of "toilets";
I am picturing (!) a scaled-down, specialized version of a transporter with its pattern detectors set to recognize excreta from human or other beings (except Neelix; No Poop for Him!). One enters the EADR, energizes, and viola; excreta is transported out of the corpus, and organs are intact, due to the detector settings.
Why the need for a Chamber?
The Chamber is, of course, for the privacy of those who have a little theater going on with their excretions, such as that "ahhhhhhhhhhhhh" sound some (not me) make as they experience a particularly excellent and relieving urine stream, or, the virtually orgasmic face some make (again, not me) when unloading one of those "Play-Dough Fun Factory-Like" NeverEnders that manage to touch the water before they actually detach. You know what I'm talking about.
And, as to the Theatrexcretion, setting are available for those who want/need (Nope, I don't need) the special sounds that go with that "Quality Time" that would be missing in an EADR Chamber.
LCARS 001: "Rustle of Sunday Morning Paper"
LCARS 002: "Coffee Mug On Porcelain"
LCARS 003: "Domestic Partner Speaking Through Door"
LCARS 004: "Appreciative Expletives", e.g., "damn!", "nice!"
IMHO
But there is a lot of dialog that either say outright that people don't use money anymore, and that there's no need or want anymore.
So, imagine the replicator won't work anymore if you can't pay. Great motivation to work.
But no way. If you cant pay, the replicator wont work????
That would never fit with Trek's utopian idea of everyone being well fed and clothed and having no wants or needs.
I don't think Trek would ever want anyone to think that about 24th century earth. It's much better to send the image that earth is flowing with abundance at the touch of a button.
Because I, Arpy circa Earth 2015, would take that job to see the Trek Earth circa 2315.
Why would I Arpy circa 2315 take that job? Keeping in mind my last post how that job wouldn't exist-duh, I'd still take it if need be because I'm not an a writer, painter, or musician as you suggest (nor am I a doctor, lawyer, policeman, etc) and I'd rather not live my life as some kind of existential masturbator never having done anything to benefit anyone. It's equivalent to being a junkie living for your next fix of something that feels not quite as satisfying as something real despite its being wonderfully distracting in the moment, but ultimately is just you in a corner lost in your own mind. It's another kind of alienated solipsistic nightmare.
If you told me I'd get to live in Utopia if everyone took a little bit of time between breakfast on an island the South Pacific, lunch in Madrid, and dinner on Luna, to keep the show running, I'd be there with my space-wrench in a heartbeat.
There seem to be a lot of illogic and contradictions in the Trek economy.
I suppose the biggest industry in the Trek universe would have to be the replicator industry since that is the magical machine that makes the Trek economy work.
Is every household, or individual, provided a replicator for free? or does he/she have to pay for it?
If nobody is to go hungry or have their needs go unfulfilled, then the replicator should be for free, right? And if the replicator breaks down, the repair should be done for free too, right? or be provided a new one, lest that household goes hungry.
What if someone can't afford a replicator? Is he allowed to leech off someone or business that has a functioning replicator? Or are there replicator centers that are open and free to all? Then what is the point of working?
If every thing is working just fine, then what are the people, who actually work, working for? If Trek is a moneyless society and people are not being compensated, what's the motivation to work? or to work hard? Just take a vacation.
As Picard said in "The Neutral Zone", "the challenge ... is to improve yourself. To enrich yourself." By enrich, Picard didn't mean material, monetary enrichment.
What if someone wants to pursue his artistic dreams that don't provide much if any benefit to society, is that still consider "work" that is worthy of getting a replicator?
What if someone wants to stay in the 24th century equivalent of college for the rest of his/her life, is that pursuit of personal enrichment considered worthy of receiving a replicator? It beats working for a living.
By the way, whoever controls the replicator industry would be quite powerful and will be able to manipulate the economy and politics.
I suppose if they are asked how exactly does the Trek economy work, they would give the magical answer, "very well, thank you".
Aside from the inacurate view that artists are existential masturbators and art doesn't benefit anyone, I'm pretty sure you could still take part in the 24th century without having to reduce yourself to a fixer of shitters.
Additionally, if you grew up in that kind of society you wouldn't be comparing yourself to the life of a 21st century work monkey, you'd be comparing yourself to your 24th century peers.
They build Starship for free, you fix the crapper for free. I'm suggesting you'd look in the mirror and the words... hang on a minute... would pop into your mind.
NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME. One can't just choose between painting and warp-field mathematics. I draw and design all the time, but it's fun and meditative for me. Some things I think might be really rather brilliant, but I don't have the talent to make art a profession. I think most people are like that. Similarly, I'd be utterly useless as a warp-field theoretician. The world doesn't need millions of mediocre warp-field theoreticians just because it sounds impressive to the status-fixated.
Existential masturbators would be those who'd live off the replicator doing no work of any kind, or who would do really bad work high off a replicator-supplied fix. Occasionally playing your space-guitar between doing holo-babes and teleportations around the globe would not make you a musician.
In the real world, most of the patent clerks downtown are not a replicator away from being the next Einstein. That doesn't speak badly of them so much as it does the disgusting fantasy that that's what we'd all be if we just had more money.
I have a comfortable middle-class job and am in school training for another comfortable middle-class job. Give me a replicator and after a period of indulgence and adjustment, I'd settle into another job that allows me to keep my head on straight and be a part of something other than my next distraction.
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Put me in the Federation and I'll volunteer to fix waste extraction units for the rest of my days.
But this brings up another point. What you mean to say is fix toilets. Who volunteers to fix broken toilets as their life's bliss? Well honestly, if they've mastered FTL travel, matter-energy teleportation, material replication, etc why the hell wouldn't they have created a bathroom roomba?
When Trek get's lazy, it assumes everything will be as it is today, only called something else. A "waste extraction unit" instead of toilet. "Grab your space-wrench, Johnson! I've got a hover-pipe loose, and you're just the holo-plumber to fix it!"
"He said clean itself, not fix itself!" ...They've mastered FTL, I think they've got this.
You know, I seriously was going to use 'toilet' but I was pretty sure the argument would be that toilets don't exist in the future, so there would be no need to have someone clean them.
Whatever fancy name they came up with, it was a pooper, for gross stuff.
Somebody's got to fix them when they break, so the question is whether they get paid, or volunteer for this filthy, smelly, vomit, poop filled job.
If I got paid in extra credits to do it, maybe. If the replicator worked for free anyway, would I still do it? For the privilege of living in this society where everything is free? Hmmmm
Lol, That's interesting. Even desirable, but I can't buy into that. The image is just too wild. An exteme level of technological based laziness.
You're basing your judgement on a 21st century interpretation of the 24th century. As such the comparisons lead you to think... "this is a pretty good deal." The problem is, people in the 24th century won't be thinking that. They'll be thinking why am I doing this when I could be doing that. The argument that people will just conveniently do the jobs that need to be done (because they're happy doing them) just isn't convincing.
Except that's the point. Yes it would. Again, you're making judgments based on 21st century concerns. Jake IS a journalist. His talent is irrelevant. That's what he wants to be therefore that's what he is. Sisko's father IS a chef. Again his talent as a cook is irrelevant (his cooking might be OK but it might also be considered mediocre by comparison to the top chefs of the day).
All irrelevant. You are what you want to be.
You are now living in a world where you can be and do whatever you want. Since money doesn't exist, art can no longer be bought. So if your art isn't being bought, who cares? I bet you could still get it exhibited somewhere. If art isn't your talent and you prefer to work with electrics, wood, metal etc then you could design and build boats. You could work with electrics. You could be involved in housing projects. You could work with tools doing all manner of interesting and challenging work.
The point is. You don't have to fix toilets. So with that in mind the question remains... why are you?
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If humanity could survive famine, disease, natural disasters, prejudice, the Third World War, and Borg invasions, I don't think the replicator would be the end of them. It would be the end of life as we know it, but that wouldn't be the worst thing. Again, we've already ended life as our ancestors knew it.
No, not "a lot." There's a single character who says money doesn't exist. Then we get various characters saying thing like they don't carry money, don't use money, don't need money. But we also get characters (non-Ferengi) buying, selling, and possessing money.
But just how far does that statement go?.
I think this would be exactly the case. No you won't starve or be out on the streets, but if you don't pay your bills then yes your replicator, power, information, water, and even dwelling would be turned off or taken away. Your standard of living would be less, until your re-established yourself. Assuming you do.
Stop, in the Trek universe we have alway seen people who work, where were these moochers anyway?
The way TOS did it was probably best, 23rd century Earth was only vaguely referred to.
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I also asked/wondered about the same questions. If it is provided, then it is probably by the government, who would also provide the energy too.
Remember when the FCC made the switch from analog to digital TV? In order to watch free television, you needed a digital conversion box. You could buy your own, but the government also provided boxes for free.
Maybe it's not as far fetched.
That would sound like a replicator/welfare center. Which actually makes sense in some areas, except Trek would never support this concept.
The idea of a welfare replicator center wouldn't fit in with Trek's vision of poverty being eliminated.
Or why do some of them commit crimes and risk going to prison? See Vash, Kassidy Yates, Liam Bilby. None of of what they did, makes any sense.
And this is the key. He was responding to a question about earning a living.
His reply suggests that this has already been taken care of by the government. All you have to do is choose a passion and explore it.
Certain things in certain episodes point to yes. For a short time, Jake Sisko seemed to slum around a bit while working on short stories and such.
And consider that he admitted that as a human, he didn't carry or possess money.
Add Tom Paris and his comment about money going the way of the dinosaur.
The problem is, if we take their statements seriously, a lot of things that happens daily in earth's economy would look just damn crazy, by our standards.
Sisko catches live seafood, manually cleans and prepares them, cooks them, flip his "open"sign and invites people in.
The people come in, eat his food. Some may complain about his cooking. Some will give him compliments. And then they get up and leave. And that's that.
But Sisko does this everyday for self enrichment.
That's just it. It went pretty far because it was strongly implying everything was free.
I think this concept makes a lot of sense, and obviously establishes why people work at even "menial" jobs even when poverty has been eliminated. And keeps earth society from looking totally weird.
But once again, Trek would never support that idea. It would clash with the utopian vision that it strongly established dozens of times. Everyone has access to abundance, courtesy of the replicator.
The idea of 24th century humans going without because their money or account ran out? No way.
The workers are the moochers, because....... everything is provided free anyway, according to some characters
Yes, TOS left you with the notion that people did work. And at the same time expressing that poverty and money worries were long gone.
The thing is, having 24th century humans needing to work in order make a living would allow for some interesting, realistic stories.
Exactly. Everyone is a hobbyist. That's 24th century life now.
How many God awful bands do you hear all the time. A lot. Yet they exist so clearly somebody, somewhere does like them. How many people have to like your music before you get to call yourself a musician? Some people will be moved by what you consider unbearable music.
So in a world where you can do whatever you want, why are you fixing a broken shitter? You don't have to, you don't get paid to and you don't want to... so why are you?
It's a future where we all get to comfortably pursue our ambitions no matter how unrealistic they might be. So unless someone's ultimate ambition is to fix toilets, I don't see how they get fixed (unless someone is given an incentive to do so).
But only a few episodes before, Jake engaged in a series of business deals that earned Jake some money, so he did possess money at that time. By the time of In The Cards that money was gone, so Jake does spend his own money, when he has it.
In the 22nd century, however subsequent to that (in the 23rd century) there is definitely money in use, during TOS.
Think about how often in a series set in modern day that we don't see character in restaurant and bars paying, it just not a part of the scene.
Voice print, by ordering food and accepting it, you entered into a agreement with the proprietor of the restaurant to have the cost of the meal transferred o out of your financial account.
Like with Beverly in the TNG pilot, it's all verbal. I think most fans would agree that they're not using physical currency.
And (on top of that) he makes a comfortable living too.
I don't know that he catches it himself. I seem to remember a scene where he is returning to the restaurant after a trip to the market (with Jake?).
I come back to Riker's statement that he doesn't carry money (to put in a tip jar), if money doesn't exist, his statement becomes confusing.
Not everyone has a replicator, it's not the only source of things.
Yes way, again you won't starve or be on the streets, but the nice condo is gone, and access to the replicator is gone, interstellar vacations are gone, jumping dance clubs are gone.
Having access doesn't translate to "free."
Lack of poverty came later in TNG.
We did hear about money during TOS. We heard people haggling over money in Tribbles and the women (in Mudd's Women) did sound like they came from a lower economic class.
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It seems like I recall something on DS9 about gold pressed latinum having value and used for currency because it can't be replicated, but apparently regular gold can. Did I just imagine that or was that a line in one of the episodes?
I know I've heard references to credits in the various shows. Wasn't Quark trying to sell Harry Kim cheap gemstones in the premier of Voyager? Which I believe he would have authorized with a thumb print. If Paris hadn't come to his rescue.
Now I know Trek novels are not considered canon, but I was reading the novel "Spock's World". McCoy is doing research in a Vulcan library/archive. And he has to pay for his printouts. It says in the book, he uses a Starfleet credit chip.
I know I've heard references to credits in the various shows. Wasn't Quark trying to sell Harry Kim cheap gemstones in the premier of Voyager? Which I believe he would have authorized with a thumb print. If Paris hadn't come to his rescue.
Now I know Trek novels are not considered canon, but I was reading the novel "Spock's World". McCoy is doing research in a Vulcan library/archive. And he has to pay for his printouts. It says in the book, he uses a Starfleet credit chip.
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