Will Riker refusing own command

[velour]

Frankly, I don't see Starfleet going out of its way to offer Riker anything after his performance in Chain of Command. He proved himself to be insubordinate, immature, apparently unable to flow the simplest command from his CO without pitching a hissy fit, and all of this at a point where Enterprise was potentially going into a combat situation. clearly he does not have the temperament needed for a command/leadership position. He's luck he didn't face a courts-martial after his escapades, and he was probably just lucky to have kept the job he had. Riker should never see anything even close to a starship command and would probably end up retiring from a desk job at best.

That's pretty harsh. I know Riker haters love to cite Jellico as an example of how Riker sucks, but Jellico was written to be an asshole (which is why they cast Ronny Cox, because he is so GREAT in those roles!).

I assume the writers intended for Jellico to be the villain in the Jellico-Riker dustup. We were suppose to be rooting for Riker. But it had the opposite effect on me. Although Jellico may have been a hard ass, I thought he came across as the mature reasonable officer, not Riker.

As a viewer, I thought Shelby and Jellico provided the one two punch that were extremely damaging to Riker’s reputation. What Shelby and Jellico said about Riker were spot on and it was devastating. But in the Trek universe, I suppose it didn’t really matter because what each said about Riker was between Shelby and Riker and Jellico and Riker.

As such, I think Jellico could have left out specifics of relieving Riker in the final report to Starfleet, maybe in part in gratitude, and in part to cover his own ass, because of his hubris going into the situation in the first place and also there was a whole crew, or at the very least the entire E-D command staff (who are all decorated Starfleet officers) and Picard, who would have sided with Riker.

You are probably right. Jellico didn’t seem like a petty or vindictive person. He would say what he said in front of Riker's face, but not behind his back in a report. He probably didn’t mention Riker’s petulant behavior in his report, so there would not have been a bad mark next to Riker's name.

That all said, I think if you wanted to take an incident in Riker's past that could have delayed his promotion, I think the Pegasus would be it. In fact, while Riker ultimately redeemed himself and did the right thing, the fact remains that he assisted Pressman. Picard actually put Riker in the brig, and Riker was going in front of an inquiry board to answer "tough questions," and Picard even says at the end of the episode Riker reputation was damaged, would probably loose a lot of respect, and would have to work hard to regain that respect, so that could explain why it took another 8 years for Riker to make captain.

Riker did seemed too comfortable in his position on the Enterprise. Riker was spoiled by the comfortable situation that the Enterprise provided him. Picard ran a relatively lenient, laid back operation. Picard would have been a good captain for a pleasure cruise ship.

Shelby was right when she said, “All you know how to do is play it safe. I suppose that’s why someone like you sits in the shadow of a great man for as long as you have, passing up one command after another.”

Riker should have been prosecuted for what he did on the Pegasus, like Pressman was. However, Riker got away scot-free. He was put in the brig, but it was only symbolic. Picard let him go. Riker was spoiled by Picard.

I don’t blame Picard for Riker’s insecurities and for Riker's behavior that were unbecoming of an officer, though. Riker couldn’t deal with the likes of a Jellico, so Riker acted up, imho.

 

[Phantom]

Question: did Spock ever actually turn down a command? Can't take something that is never offered.

There is this ambiguous exchange from 'The Enterprise Incident':

COMMANDER: You are a superior being. Why do you not command?
SPOCK: I do not desire a ship of my own.
COMMANDER: Or is it that no one has offered you, a Vulcan, that opportunity?
SPOCK: Such opportunities are extremely rare.

That supports the idea that Spock hasn't been offered command, but it also supports the idea that Spock had rejected command.

At that point. Some time after TMP he did accept command, because Enterprise was his ship at the beginning of WoK.

Later, after they first get word about a potential problem with the Genesis Project, there is this exchange:

KIRK (OC): I told Starfleet all we had was a boatload of children but ...we're the only ship in the Quadrant. Spock, these cadets of yours, how good are they? How will they respond under real pressure?
SPOCK: As with all living things, each according to his gifts. Of course, the ship is yours.
KIRK: No, that won't be necessary, just get me to Regula I.
SPOCK: As a teacher on a training mission, I am content to command the Enterprise. If we are to go on actual duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command.
KIRK: It may be nothing, ...garbled communications. You take the ship.
SPOCK: Jim, you proceed from a false assumption. I am a Vulcan. I have no ego to bruise.
KIRK (OC): You're about to remind me that logic alone dictates your actions.
SPOCK: I would not remind you of that which you know so well. If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material.
KIRK: I would not presume to debate you.
SPOCK: That is wise. In any case, were I to invoke logic, logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
KIRK: Or the one.
SPOCK: You are my superior officer. You are also my friend. I have been and always shall be yours.

[Enterprise bridge]


KIRK: Stop energisers.
SULU (OC): Stop energisers.
KIRK: Prepare speakers. ...An emergency situation has arisen. By order of Starfleet Command, as of now, eighteen hundred hours, I am assuming command of this vessel. Duty officer so note in the ship's log. Plot a new course, for Space Laboratory Regula I. Engine room. Mister Scott!
SCOTT (on intercom): Aye sir.
KIRK: We'll be going to warp speed.
SCOTT (on intercom): Aye sir.

 

[J.T.B.]

Not to mention, Riker really didn't get much of a punishment, either. Riker was only replaced by Data as first officer, and that is the captain's prerogative. Had Riker done nothing, he still could have been replaced by Jellico simply because Jellico hated his beard! Also, Riker was only confined to quarters, and for all we know, that was the extent of his punishment. Other people have received that punishment, without any ill effects to their career.

Again, something that probably shouldn't be scrutinized too closely. For one thing, I don't think it is within the captain's normal prerogatives to just switch first officers. When Riker showed up he said he had been assigned as F/O and Picard didn't know much about him, so it seemed like the decision was made above the captain's level. It doesn't make sense that the captain could overturn that decision without some kind of judicial process. And putting an officer in the position of being subject to the orders of one of a lower rank is a pretty serious step to take. And, IIRC, Data started wearing commander's pips, which, unless Jellicoe has the power to issue promotions at will, implies that Riker's position was vacant, at least temporarily. In other words, if it was just someone random you'd think "he's in pretty deep shit." But the way things happen to the central characters, it makes it seem that they are on some exceptional level where normal standards don't apply.

I assume the writers intended for Jellico to be the villain in the Jellico-Riker dustup. We were suppose to be rooting for Riker. But it had the opposite effect on me. Although Jellico may have been a hard ass, I thought he came across as the mature reasonable officer, not Riker.

Agreed. The way it was written undercut Riker's entire position. Jellico called Riker a bad first officer, Riker called Jellico a bad captain. But everything Jellico did worked out and made the mission a success, which made him seem like a good captain, while basically all Riker had done was not support him, so he did indeed look like a bad second-in-command.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Yeah, so? Makes it even worse. 15+ years time in grade as a commander in the same job? Not exactly the picture of a motivated go-getter. There must be plenty of other talented professional officers in the fleet deserving of a command before Riker.

And back to Chain of Command: not only did he openly defy his CO, he did absolutely nothing to discourage the same sorts of behavior from his subordinates. If I was in the admiralty at Starfleet I would have turfed Riker's butt so fast it'd make your head spin.

Agreed about Riker in COC. I know the intent was to make Jellico look like an asshole and Riker the victim, but it came off as Riker just being pissed Jellico wasn't Picard and didn't like the way Jellico did things.

In fairness though Riker wasn't alone. Geordi got upset that Jellico asked him to get the engines up to peak performance for combat. Crusher was appalled that he asked her to get sick bay ready because he might actually take a warship into combat and people could be hurt. Troi was speechless that, after he listened carefully to her concerns, he asked her to address crew morale because had a battle to prepare for. What a ridiculous request I mean she's only the ship's counselor, I don't see where it's her job to help the crew feel better. He also ordered her out of those fat ass clothes she wore and into an actual uniform.....the horror.

Aside from Data and Worf, who both have duty built into them, the crew were just a bunch of crybabies who didn't like that meanie head Jellico.

 

[velour]

In fairness though Riker wasn't alone. Geordi got upset that Jellico asked him to get the engines up to peak performance for combat. Crusher was appalled that he asked her to get sick bay ready because he might actually take a warship into combat and people could be hurt. Troi was speechless that, after he listened carefully to her concerns, he asked her to address crew morale because had a battle to prepare for. What a ridiculous request I mean she's only the ship's counselor, I don't see where it's her job to help the crew feel better. He also ordered her out of those fat ass clothes she wore and into an actual uniform.....the horror.

Aside from Data and Worf, who both have duty built into them, the crew were just a bunch of crybabies who didn't like that meanie head Jellico.

The look on Troi's face was priceless when Jellico ordered her to change out of her boob showing outfit. Troi looked positively constipated. She couldn't even manage to get out her usual whimpering response.

Riker and the rest of the crew had it too easy under Picard. The TNG crew seemed to have become soft under Picard's lenient command style, that is, if they weren't already soft to begin with. Riker's behavior was merely the most obvious. Riker was like the spoiled brat who couldn't deal with the new stern taskmaster.

 

[Disco]

In fairness though Riker wasn't alone. Geordi got upset that Jellico asked him to get the engines up to peak performance for combat. Crusher was appalled that he asked her to get sick bay ready because he might actually take a warship into combat and people could be hurt. Troi was speechless that, after he listened carefully to her concerns, he asked her to address crew morale because had a battle to prepare for. What a ridiculous request I mean she's only the ship's counselor, I don't see where it's her job to help the crew feel better. He also ordered her out of those fat ass clothes she wore and into an actual uniform.....the horror.

Aside from Data and Worf, who both have duty built into them, the crew were just a bunch of crybabies who didn't like that meanie head Jellico.

The look on Troi's face was priceless when Jellico ordered her to change out of her boob showing outfit. Troi looked positively constipated. She couldn't even manage to get out her usual whimpering response.

Riker and the rest of the crew had it too easy under Picard. The TNG crew seemed to have become soft under Picard's lenient command style, that is, if they weren't already soft to begin with. Riker's behavior was merely the most obvious. Riker was like the spoiled brat who couldn't deal with the new stern taskmaster.

I feel Jellico was unnecessarily harsh and out of line and Riker did the right thing to stand up to him.

 

[Jedman67]

Yeah, so? Makes it even worse. 15+ years time in grade as a commander in the same job? Not exactly the picture of a motivated go-getter. There must be plenty of other talented professional officers in the fleet deserving of a command before Riker.

And back to Chain of Command: not only did he openly defy his CO, he did absolutely nothing to discourage the same sorts of behavior from his subordinates. If I was in the admiralty at Starfleet I would have turfed Riker's butt so fast it'd make your head spin.

Agreed about Riker in COC. I know the intent was to make Jellico look like an asshole and Riker the victim, but it came off as Riker just being pissed Jellico wasn't Picard and didn't like the way Jellico did things.

In fairness though Riker wasn't alone. Geordi got upset that Jellico asked him to get the engines up to peak performance for combat. Crusher was appalled that he asked her to get sick bay ready because he might actually take a warship into combat and people could be hurt. Troi was speechless that, after he listened carefully to her concerns, he asked her to address crew morale because had a battle to prepare for. What a ridiculous request I mean she's only the ship's counselor, I don't see where it's her job to help the crew feel better. He also ordered her out of those fat ass clothes she wore and into an actual uniform.....the horror.

Aside from Data and Worf, who both have duty built into them, the crew were just a bunch of crybabies who didn't like that meanie head Jellico.

The look on Troi's face was priceless when Jellico ordered her to change out of her boob showing outfit. Troi looked positively constipated. She couldn't even manage to get out her usual whimpering response.

Riker and the rest of the crew had it too easy under Picard. The TNG crew seemed to have become soft under Picard's lenient command style, that is, if they weren't already soft to begin with. Riker's behavior was merely the most obvious. Riker was like the spoiled brat who couldn't deal with the new stern taskmaster.

The only good stuff in COC was Picards torture. You're in a military; you follow the orders even if they are seemingly unreasonable. Jellico's attitude "cause I say so" seems kind of petulant. Instead, he should have explained, to Riker only - "We may end up in battle with sneaky cardassians. Starfleet is putting us on a war advisory - hopefully that won't happen, but if it does, we need to kick some serious ass. Now you go and tell the crew".
Sure Picard was soft, but the enterprise was never really in battle conditions.

Re: Troi's boobs: the writers needed an excuse to put her back in proper uniform. Funniest scene in the episode.

I feel Jellico was unnecessarily harsh and out of line and Riker did the right thing to stand up to him.

An XO is required to support his captain, regardless of personal feelings or opinions. It's non-discretionary. In a real-world navy he could have been court-martialed or allowed to resign.

 

[BillJ]

I feel Jellico was unnecessarily harsh and out of line and Riker did the right thing to stand up to him.

You do realize that Starfleet is the military, not Summer camp?

I'm sorry, but I wonder what kind of vacation craft Picard and Riker were running? Jellico came in with a plan for upgrades that were clearly doable. Why weren't Picard and Riker already upgrading the ship?

Kirk would've been embarrassed to have someone come on his ship with plans for upgrades that should've already been done.

 

[Mojochi]

That's pretty harsh. I know Riker haters love to cite Jellico as an example of how Riker sucks, but Jellico was written to be an asshole (which is why they cast Ronny Cox, because he is so GREAT in those roles!). But seriously, what Riker did wasn't that bad. In fact, he was speaking up for the rest of the crew, which was his duty. Really, the only thing Riker was guilty of was raising his voice to Jellico the way he did, but his motives and concerns were sound.

For the record, I'm not a Riker hater. I think Frakes plays the role well. I think Riker is a good 1st officer FOR Picard, & the top 3 spots on the ENT-D work exceedingly well together as a command team. Riker's personal choice in not accepting 3 separate commands was a bit selfish & wishy-washy, but I let it go, because they swept it under the rug eventually. I don't really hold anything in The Pegasus against him either. He was a noob. I do think it could have been another blot on his reputation though. He can be a little pompous at times & exclusionary to anyone not in his inner circle, but not always.

However, the fact remains, that as long as things are right in Riker's world, he's is a good 1st officer, but more than once, when things go a little caddywampus on him, he just ceases to function very well, especially where his Daddy issues come into play. Name me a time when something bad happened to Picard, where Riker didn't have some kind of emotional oversight, where Troi, or Jellico, or Guinan for god sake is telling him to get a grip. He has been shown to work well in a crisis, but not so well under duress as a commander

He's supposed to be at the top of his game in CoC, & I must add that he wasn't only guilty of direct insubordinate behavior in his addressing of Jellico, when he got relieved. He had previously disregarded a direct order from that commanding officer, because he felt it was an ill-advised course of action, & intended to reverse the directive when the time presented itself. Thereafter, he shows increasing levels of attitude inappropriateness, from sighs & eye rolling to excuse making, & the capper for me is that he willfully undermined the chain of command when he spoke derisively about his captain to a subordinate (Geordi). That is the exact opposite of what he's supposed to be doing

I don't think that incident is a career ender

Neither do I. It's 1 incident of butting heads with 1 officer, who may or may not have even logged it as such, because he felt jilted on not being made the commanding officer for the mission himself. The mission succeeded. It all just got forgotten

Simply put, Jellico couldn't have succeeded without Riker on that mission.

I don't see it that way. Geordi said he could do the mission, which he wouldn't say if he couldn't, but he followed up by saying the best pilot for the mission was Riker. Riker has 1 close call in the field, that is remarked upon. Maybe he's the only guy who could've piloted through that, maybe not. I wouldn't say that made him indispensable to the mission

 

[Ghrakh]

Riker and the rest of the crew had it too easy under Picard.

Yeah, what a shitty TV show.

I'm sorry, but I wonder what kind of vacation craft Picard and Riker were running?

Yeah, what a shitty TV show.

 

[Mojochi]

It's hard to condemn Riker completely, IMHO, when you look at an episode like Gambit. He may have been short sighted as a captain there, & got himself thrown all out of whack, but once he's in the mix WITH Picard, he, Picard & then even Data manage wonderful team work in that situation. As a command trio, they are pretty badass

 

[Ithekro]

Perhaps Riker subconsciously knew he wasn't ready for the Big Chair full time and refused commands until he was ready.

 

[BillJ]

Riker and the rest of the crew had it too easy under Picard.

Yeah, what a shitty TV show.

I'm sorry, but I wonder what kind of vacation craft Picard and Riker were running?

Yeah, what a shitty TV show.

Not even great TV shows are above occasional criticism.

 

[Ghrakh]

Riker and the rest of the crew had it too easy under Picard.

Yeah, what a shitty TV show.

I'm sorry, but I wonder what kind of vacation craft Picard and Riker were running?

Yeah, what a shitty TV show.

Not even great TV shows are above occasional criticism.

"Criticism"? LMAO, I can tell the difference between actual criticism and mere trolling. And please don't BS us with this "great TV shows" horseeshit, spinoff hater. And, by endorsing Shelby and Jellico, you negate the premise of TNG. It's a simple fact.

 

[J.T.B.]

"Criticism"? LMAO, I can tell the difference between actual criticism and mere trolling.

Really? Because there hasn't really been any trolling going on in this thread that I can see.

And please don't BS us with this "great TV shows" horseeshit, spinoff hater. And, by endorsing Shelby and Jellico, you negate the premise of TNG. It's a simple fact.

Believe it or not, most people can have criticisms of certain aspects of a production without feeling that it makes the whole show "shitty."

 

[BillJ]

And please don't BS us with this "great TV shows" horseeshit, spinoff hater.

You got me. I only spend money on spinoff DVD's, Blu-ray's, books, comics, ships and action figures because it is less effort than flushing money directly down the toilet.

And, by endorsing Shelby and Jellico, you negate the premise of TNG. It's a simple fact.

If the premise of TNG is people being fat and lazy then getting pissy when things change, then I guess you're right.

 

[BillJ]

Believe it or not, most people can have criticisms of certain aspects of a production without feeling that it makes the whole show "shitty."

I love the Abrams films and there are still things I'd have done differently.

 

[Ghrakh]

Believe it or not, most people can have criticisms of certain aspects of a production without feeling that it makes the whole show "shitty."

Yeah. I'm critical of TNG too. But there's no agenda behind it. And not being much of a DS9 or Voyager fan, I don't spend all my time "criticizing" those.

If the premise of TNG is people being fat and lazy then getting pissy when things change, then I guess you're right.

Thanks for letting us know what you truly think of TNG.

 

[Jedman67]

It's hard to condemn Riker completely, IMHO, when you look at an episode like Gambit. He may have been short sighted as a captain there, & got himself thrown all out of whack, but once he's in the mix WITH Picard, he, Picard & then even Data manage wonderful team work in that situation. As a command trio, they are pretty badass

And Data throws Riker in the brig at the end. Priceless!

Yeah, what a shitty TV show.

Yeah, what a shitty TV show.

Not even great TV shows are above occasional criticism.

"Criticism"? LMAO, I can tell the difference between actual criticism and mere trolling. And please don't BS us with this "great TV shows" horseeshit, spinoff hater. And, by endorsing Shelby and Jellico, you negate the premise of TNG. It's a simple fact.

It's just a TV show, chillax dude. One can criticize elements of a show without negating the entire premise. The problem is that the writers got too lazy towards the end, writing in unnecessary conflicts that just don't make sense with the rest of the show. As an example with Chain of Command; in a proper military Riker would have had the book thrown at him for insubordination and disobeying orders. But the insubordination and disobeying orders was stupidly written. And Jellico was written as an asshole instead of a competent officer with a significantly different (sharper) command style. Lazy writing, poor character development.

Despite not caring for one particular episode, i enjoy the series as a whole.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Umm - let's tone down the hostility here. I hate giving warnings but I'm getting close. This particularly applies to ghrakh. Cool it.