Will Riker refusing own command

[Ithekro]

Starfleet cannot abandon the rest of its borders to fight the war. They can afford to take ships off the Klingon and Romulan borders as allies. But space is vast. Within the area this is all likely taking place, the 10,000 light year diameter centered on Sol, there are 600 million stars.

 

[Phantom]

This is the second time this week I've seen someone quoting numbers like this. Is there any canon basis for the idea that Starfleet has tens of thousands of ships. In looking back at the Dominion War, which easily showed the greatest concentrations of ships in the canon, I mainly recall even the largest fleets numbering around 100-200 ships, with no indication given that there were more than 10-20 fleets at most.


Thousands of space stations, planetary facilities, etc, sure, but I don't see starships existing in these numbers.

Well for the Second Battle of Deep Space Nine they assembled a fleet of some 700 ships, true that was comprised of ships from various fleets, but you still have to think they left enough ships in the fleets from which they pulled those ships to defend the places they were assigned to defend. So yes it might not be in the tens of thosuands but it could certainly be in the high thousands

That was a pivotal battle in the war - if Dominion reinforcements came through the wormhole, the Alpha quadrant was lost. The fact that it only involved 700 federation starships would seem a huge argument against the number being in the high thousands.

That was the number of ships they had at that exact moment. They were expecting more, but they got word the minefield was about to come down and went with what they had.

If I take the highest end of my previous estimates (20ish fleets at 200-ish ships each) I get around 4,000 ships in the fleet, which, considering that, in peacetime, there's often 'only 1 ship in the area' and even in wartime, most places seem to make do with the protection of only a few ships, if any, I'd say that's roughly enough to provide 700 ships to retake DS9 while also maintaining a defensive perimeter.

Lets do some simple math, using known numbers. The Federation covers some 8,000 light years in the 24th century, per a statement from Picard in "First Contact".

Assuming that's a diameter, we take half (4000) and put it into a volume calculator. We get a total potential volume of the Federation thus as 268,082,573,106 cubic ly and change.

A standard sector is generally considered to be 20 ly across. That's a volume of 4,188 cubic ly and change.

Doing the math, using the "only ship in the sector" notion, 1 ship/sector would yield a total fleet of 64,012,075 starships. Even I think that's a tad excessive (and not supported by registries that top out in the early/mid 80,000s).

Let's go with a standard of 10x the 'accepted' size (a 200 ly sector). That's still 6,401,207 starships. (Still too large a number to justify by the registries, IMO)

So there's plenty of room for (and a need of) a big fleet. Even an active force of 10,000 starships would be pushed to Herculanean levels of effort to try to explore/defend that much space.

Have NCC numbers ever been proven to have anything to do with the number of ships in the fleet?

No. They're just gibberish.

Yeah, that's what I always thought, as well.

No, they're not "gibberish". The general trend is earlier ships = lower numbers and later ships = higher numbers. Any given class can serve (under the right conditions) for 150 years or more, which is why you still have ships with registries in the 2000s in active service 100 years later.

 

[Ghrakh]

Spock-GOOD Riker-BAD. Because Spock "never wanted command" even though he was 2nd in command and would jump in the Captain's chair without hesitation. Must be an indication of TOS-era Starfleet incompetence to put a reluctant "commander" in that position.

But anyway:

Riker was on the Enterprise 3 whole seasons by the time BOBW pt. 1 aired. But SHELBY was female so there's a different standard. It's fine for her to want to be on the Enterprise, but Riker? GTFO! You're in the way of this punk bitch's career. Tits trump beard, unless you're Spock.

Ain't hindsight wonderful?

 

[darkshadow0001]

What do you think of Riker's decision to refuse his own command for so long?

Elizabeth Shelby couldn't understand it, while Jean-Luc enjoyed his Number One quite for a long time. It wasn't Picard, though, who kept him from leaving the Enterprise.....

I think he just enjoyed staying on The Enterprise. I mean, I would if I were in his position.

 

[Ghrakh]

 

[Ithekro]

If he gets a fourth pip does he get a third woman hanging off him?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Well for the Second Battle of Deep Space Nine they assembled a fleet of some 700 ships, true that was comprised of ships from various fleets, but you still have to think they left enough ships in the fleets from which they pulled those ships to defend the places they were assigned to defend. So yes it might not be in the tens of thosuands but it could certainly be in the high thousands

That was a pivotal battle in the war - if Dominion reinforcements came through the wormhole, the Alpha quadrant was lost. The fact that it only involved 700 federation starships would seem a huge argument against the number being in the high thousands.

That was the number of ships they had at that exact moment. They were expecting more, but they got word the minefield was about to come down and went with what they had.

That's a fair point. I'd forgotten how much the attack had to be organized on the fly.

Lets do some simple math, using known numbers. The Federation covers some 8,000 light years in the 24th century, per a statement from Picard in "First Contact".

Assuming that's a diameter, we take half (4000) and put it into a volume calculator. We get a total potential volume of the Federation thus as 268,082,573,106 cubic ly and change.

A standard sector is generally considered to be 20 ly across. That's a volume of 4,188 cubic ly and change.

Doing the math, using the "only ship in the sector" notion, 1 ship/sector would yield a total fleet of 64,012,075 starships. Even I think that's a tad excessive (and not supported by registries that top out in the early/mid 80,000s).

Let's go with a standard of 10x the 'accepted' size (a 200 ly sector). That's still 6,401,207 starships. (Still too large a number to justify by the registries, IMO)

So there's plenty of room for (and a need of) a big fleet. Even an active force of 10,000 starships would be pushed to Herculanean levels of effort to try to explore/defend that much space.

This assumes that every sector of Federation space is heavily inhabited with lots of important areas to protect and requires active protection from Starships. I don't think that's a reasonable assumption.

When I mentioned the 'only ship in the sector' trope, I was simply pointing out that Starfleet typically doesn't bunch up its ships very much unless it absolutely has to, not trying to establish a standard that every sector would have on average 1 ship - I'd expect the actual number would likely be much lower, considering how often we've seen planets that had no ships around except when the Enterprise came through for a single episode.

You're also assuming that every single border of the Federation requires significant active defenses. The Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians are major rivals who've gone to all out war with the Federation in the past. I seriously doubt Starfleet spends many resources trying to man the border with the Ferengi...

No. They're just gibberish.

Yeah, that's what I always thought, as well.

No, they're not "gibberish". The general trend is earlier ships = lower numbers and later ships = higher numbers. Any given class can serve (under the right conditions) for 150 years or more, which is why you still have ships with registries in the 2000s in active service 100 years later.

Higher numbers for later ships is hardly evidence that the numbers must be actual counts of how many ships are currently active.

If that were the case, registry numbers would be constantly in flux as old ships were destroyed or decommissioned - or at least, new ships would be constantly reusing the low numbers vacated by the old ones (and if that was all happening so quickly that the numbers could still skyrocket into the 70,000s, we would have already seen the Enterprise AAA). Which would again lead to confusion anytime someone needed historical information pertaining to registry numbers.

 

[BillJ]

Spock-GOOD Riker-BAD. Because Spock "never wanted command" even though he was 2nd in command and would jump in the Captain's chair without hesitation. Must be an indication of TOS-era Starfleet incompetence to put a reluctant "commander" in that position.

Problem being Spock was only first officer, that we know of, for five years. On a five-year deep space expedition. Which probably meant they wouldn't cycle personnel in the same way a craft close to home would.

Riker was on the Enterprise 3 whole seasons by the time BOBW pt. 1 aired. But SHELBY was female so there's a different standard. It's fine for her to want to be on the Enterprise, but Riker? GTFO! You're in the way of this punk bitch's career. Tits trump beard, unless you're Spock.

This is non-sense, of course. Would it had made any difference if Shelby was a man. Some people are more driven than others.

 

[Phantom]

This assumes that every sector of Federation space is heavily inhabited with lots of important areas to protect and requires active protection from Starships. I don't think that's a reasonable assumption.

How much more of a discount do you want? I went back and checked my numbers (doubling sector diameter each time) and got:

• Volume of the Federation: (8,000 ly diameter) 268,082,573,141 cubic ly
• Volume of a sector (20 ly dia): 4,188 cubic ly (64,012,075 starships @ 1/sector)
• Volume of a sector (200 ly dia): 4,188,790 cubic ly (64,000 starships @ 1/sector)
• Volume of a sector (400 ly dia): 33,510,321 (8000 ships @ 1/sector)

Using 20 ly diameter sectors, at Warp 9 (a speed most ships cannot maintain indefinitely) it would still take a ship 5 days to cross just 1 sector 1 time. (Not allowing for corrective factors such as subspace sandbars, warp "highways"/"currants", etc.)

A ship assigned a 400 ly sector would take 93 days to traverse it's diameter once.

When I mentioned the 'only ship in the sector' trope, I was simply pointing out that Starfleet typically doesn't bunch up its ships very much unless it absolutely has to,

Because that would make things worse in terms of response times. Bunching ships up (as in wartime or to handle busy regions of space) would require even more starships to ensure adequate coverage.

not trying to establish a standard that every sector would have on average 1 ship - I'd expect the actual number would likely be much lower, considering how often we've seen planets that had no ships around except when the Enterprise came through for a single episode.

I did numbers above for a 20 times reduction factor and still got 8,000 starships. Taking travel times into account, I think that's too big of a reduction.

You're also assuming that every single border of the Federation requires significant active defenses. The Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians are major rivals who've gone to all out war with the Federation in the past. I seriously doubt Starfleet spends many resources trying to man the border with the Ferengi...

Probably not, but when you consider (again) travel times, you have the Cardassians on the "west coast" of the Federation, and the Klingons/Romulans on the "east coast", with many 100s if not 1000s of light years between them.

Higher numbers for later ships is hardly evidence that the numbers must be actual counts of how many ships are currently active.

I never said that they were. No one is certain exactly how the numbers fall out, how many were actually built vs ones contracted for that were cancelled, etc.

If that were the case, registry numbers would be constantly in flux as old ships were destroyed or decommissioned - or at least, new ships would be constantly reusing the low numbers vacated by the old ones

That's not the way the bureaucracy of a registry system works. Each hull has it's own unique number that stays with it throughout it's lifetime. The only known case of a registry change is the the ship that became the Enterprise-A, which took on the 1701 designation with the A suffix to keep it's records straight from other Enterprise-es. The DS9 producers said that time prevented them from "repainting" the registry for the new Defiant (ex Sao Palo) on the model. For the record, her registry (shown on the dedication plaque) is NCC-75633.

 

[Ithekro]

In theory, it would take starships on the other side of the Federation several years to cross it at the widest point. So if the Dominion threat was such that Starfleet decided to recall several starship from all over Federation space and the side opposite from Bajor, starships would be repositioning themselves for years, or at the very least spend while returning to the core systems for refits for combat duty, then then get sent to the front line once the war started.

Starfleet lost a lot of ships in the War, but always seemed to have more even with nearly entire fleets being wiped out. Ships that left the opposite side of the Federation in 2371 or even 2373 would likely arrive at the end of the war in late 2375.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

This assumes that every sector of Federation space is heavily inhabited with lots of important areas to protect and requires active protection from Starships. I don't think that's a reasonable assumption.

How much more of a discount do you want? I went back and checked my numbers (doubling sector diameter each time) and got:

• Volume of the Federation: (8,000 ly diameter) 268,082,573,141 cubic ly
• Volume of a sector (20 ly dia): 4,188 cubic ly (64,012,075 starships @ 1/sector)
• Volume of a sector (200 ly dia): 4,188,790 cubic ly (64,000 starships @ 1/sector)
• Volume of a sector (400 ly dia): 33,510,321 (8000 ships @ 1/sector)

Using 20 ly diameter sectors, at Warp 9 (a speed most ships cannot maintain indefinitely) it would still take a ship 5 days to cross just 1 sector 1 time. (Not allowing for corrective factors such as subspace sandbars, warp "highways"/"currants", etc.)

A ship assigned a 400 ly sector would take 93 days to traverse it's diameter once.

When I mentioned the 'only ship in the sector' trope, I was simply pointing out that Starfleet typically doesn't bunch up its ships very much unless it absolutely has to,

Because that would make things worse in terms of response times. Bunching ships up (as in wartime or to handle busy regions of space) would require even more starships to ensure adequate coverage.



I did numbers above for a 20 times reduction factor and still got 8,000 starships. Taking travel times into account, I think that's too big of a reduction.



Probably not, but when you consider (again) travel times, you have the Cardassians on the "west coast" of the Federation, and the Klingons/Romulans on the "east coast", with many 100s if not 1000s of light years between them.

I appreciate the effort, but I'm not sure your real world mathematics actually match up to ST reality. I'm not the biggest canon expert in the world, so I'm certainly open to any opposing canon evidence, but the impression I always got was that DS9 was supposed to be way out on the frontier - yet the largest travel times I remember being quoted to any Federation location was a handful of weeks, not years. Not to mention the various times when starships have gone from Earth to Klingon space or romulan space or cardassian space in what seems like a matter of days, at most.

Really, I'm not sure I can recall a single instance in the entire ST canon of a starfleet ship actually needing years to get anywhere, with the obvious exception of the Voyager.

Higher numbers for later ships is hardly evidence that the numbers must be actual counts of how many ships are currently active.

I never said that they were. No one is certain exactly how the numbers fall out, how many were actually built vs ones contracted for that were cancelled, etc.

The person I was answering originally implied that the large registry numbers was proof of there being that many ships in the fleet. That's the only reason I was discussing the registry numbers in the first place.

If that were the case, registry numbers would be constantly in flux as old ships were destroyed or decommissioned - or at least, new ships would be constantly reusing the low numbers vacated by the old ones

That's not the way the bureaucracy of a registry system works. Each hull has it's own unique number that stays with it throughout it's lifetime. The only known case of a registry change is the the ship that became the Enterprise-A, which took on the 1701 designation with the A suffix to keep it's records straight from other Enterprise-es. The DS9 producers said that time prevented them from "repainting" the registry for the new Defiant (ex Sao Palo) on the model/
(For the record, her registry (shown on the dedication plaque) is NCC-75633.

That's basically what I would expect. Ie, that at most the registry numbers are indicative of the total number of starships that have ever been registered in the history of Starfleet, and quite possibly not even that (since we don't know that the numbers are assigned in numerical order rather than through some other system).

 

[TheSubCommander]

Frankly, I don't see Starfleet going out of its way to offer Riker anything after his performance in Chain of Command. He proved himself to be insubordinate, immature, apparently unable to flow the simplest command from his CO without pitching a hissy fit, and all of this at a point where Enterprise was potentially going into a combat situation. clearly he does not have the temperament needed for a command/leadership position. He's luck he didn't face a courts-martial after his escapades, and he was probably just lucky to have kept the job he had. Riker should never see anything even close to a starship command and would probably end up retiring from a desk job at best.

That's pretty harsh. I know Riker haters love to cite Jellico as an example of how Riker sucks, but Jellico was written to be an asshole (which is why they cast Ronny Cox, because he is so GREAT in those roles!). But seriously, what Riker did wasn't that bad. In fact, he was speaking up for the rest of the crew, which was his duty. Really, the only thing Riker was guilty of was raising his voice to Jellico the way he did, but his motives and concerns were sound. Not to mention, Riker really didn't get much of a punishment, either. Riker was only replaced by Data as first officer, and that is the captain's prerogative. Had Riker done nothing, he still could have been replaced by Jellico simply because Jellico hated his beard! Also, Riker was only confined to quarters, and for all we know, that was the extent of his punishment. Other people have received that punishment, without any ill effects to their career.

I don't think that incident is a career ender, and in fact who is to say that Jellico's final report actually praised Riker, prior to leaving the Enterprise-D. It was Riker's efforts to place the mines that made Jellico's plan succeed. Simply put, Jellico couldn't have succeeded without Riker on that mission.

As such, I think Jellico could have left out specifics of relieving Riker in the final report to Starfleet, maybe in part in gratitude, and in part to cover his own ass, because of his hubris going into the situation in the first place and also there was a whole crew, or at the very least the entire E-D command staff (who are all decorated Starfleet officers) and Picard, who would have sided with Riker.


That all said, I think if you wanted to take an incident in Riker's past that could have delayed his promotion, I think the Pegasus would be it. In fact, while Riker ultimately redeemed himself and did the right thing, the fact remains that he assisted Pressman. Picard actually put Riker in the brig, and Riker was going in front of an inquiry board to answer "tough questions," and Picard even says at the end of the episode Riker reputation was damaged, would probably loose a lot of respect, and would have to work hard to regain that respect, so that could explain why it took another 8 years for Riker to make captain.

 

[Phantom]

I appreciate the effort, but I'm not sure your real world mathematics actually match up to ST reality. I'm not the biggest canon expert in the world, so I'm certainly open to any opposing canon evidence, but the impression I always got was that DS9 was supposed to be way out on the frontier - yet the largest travel times I remember being quoted to any Federation location was a handful of weeks, not years. Not to mention the various times when starships have gone from Earth to Klingon space or romulan space or cardassian space in what seems like a matter of days, at most.

Really, I'm not sure I can recall a single instance in the entire ST canon of a starfleet ship actually needing years to get anywhere, with the obvious exception of the Voyager.

Well, there was the time Riker got offered a command of his own:

RIKER: The Ares. She's in Vega-Omicron sector.
PICARD: And they have picked up indications of an intelligent life form, though nothing confirmed.
RIKER: Obviously, Starfleet will want to know more.
PICARD: That's why they're asking for you. Not for your military proficiency, but for your skill as an explorer and as a diplomat.
RIKER: Vega-Omicron. It'll take months at high warp just to get there.

Not years, but still an indication that parts of the Federation can take a long time to get to.

On the larger issue of how Trek portrayed it's travel times, you are correct. It's one of Trek's oldest bug-a-boos. The generally favored fan theory is/was that subspace is not uniform in it's "density" for want of a better term. Some spaces are easier to warp than others, based on gravitational fields, interstellar matter density, etc. So, for example, a region of higher population in terms of stars/planets/etc might be more difficult to warp through, while relatively "empty" reaches of space would be much easier travel.

In the technical fandom, this factor was often called chi (as in the Greek letter, not the Chinese mystical concept). Regions that had a high chi factor were sometimes called "warp highways" because they greatly increased the efficiency of the warp field, and sped up travel.

The theory never was confirmed in full, but the idea of variable subspace density did get confirmed finally in the Voyager episode "Bride of Chaotica". Further references to "currents" and "eddies" in subspace (TNG: "Best of Both Worlds Part II", VOY: "Renaissance Man" and "Real Life", DS9: "Battle Lines", ENT: "Impulse") imply that subspace behaves at least partially in ways understandable in terms of fluid dynamics.

So, it isn't strictly canon, but it is certainly consistent with canon and can be considered implied by canon.

The person I was answering originally implied that the large registry numbers was proof of there being that many ships in the fleet. That's the only reason I was discussing the registry numbers in the first place.

Ok, that's fair. I even agree.

That's basically what I would expect. Ie, that at most the registry numbers are indicative of the total number of starships that have ever been registered in the history of Starfleet, and quite possibly not even that (since we don't know that the numbers are assigned in numerical order rather than through some other system).

Again, fair enough. My only point originally was that the exigencies of a Federation that big certainly support the idea of a "big Starfleet". Taking registries into account, and keeping in mind that little "cutters" like the Runabouts have their own independent registry numbers, I wouldn't go lower than a total Starfleet size of ~8,000 ships. If 100% grouped into fleets and given your estimate of ~20 fleets, that would only be 400 ships/fleet, and that's pretty consistent with what we saw in DS9. I personally would be much more comfortable with a total Starfleet of closer to 10-12,000 so that it could at least provide minimal coverage to the other parts of the Federation and keep up with it's other duties as well as war-fighting.

 

[Deleted 69012]

Re: Picard is a walking trigger warning after a certain point

Bad writing. It was not the best idea to define early Riker's character trait of fast promotions and the desire to captain a starship on a character who needs to stay put on the series throughout its entire run. So when Riker does end up as first officer for the seven-year run, he comes off like he lost all ambition and drive. The ONLY way his character arc has its proper conclusion on the show is for Patrick Stewart to leave.

The alternative--and I want to apologize if this has been covered because this topic is 11 pages long and I joined yesterday--is that Picard, who was assimilated by the Borg and oversaw the deaths of thousands at Wolf 359--retires from Starfleet and acts as an ambassador and adviser attached to Enterprise for the next four years.

Riker can finally become captain. Picard can go on away missions. Data can have issues being XO. Crusher/Picard can move forward a bit. Riker's character isn't thrown under a bus. Patrick Stewart is still on Star Trek and the Enterprise still has a wise father figure. Picard has to figure out his new place in the universe. Everyone moves forward a bit instead of having the same jobs for 15+ years.

When Riker dies they will have on his gravestone the best first officer of Captain Picard.

They might make some room on that tombstone for "Guy who saved Earth from the Borg."

 

[BillJ]

Re: Picard is a walking trigger warning after a certain point

They might make some room on that tombstone for "Guy who saved Earth from the Borg."

Why would he be sharing a tombstone with Data?

 

[Ghrakh]

Problem being Spock was only first officer, that we know of, for five years. On a five-year deep space expedition. Which probably meant they wouldn't cycle personnel in the same way a craft close to home would.

Yeah, the unambitious "science office" that was placed sencond in command. Either Starfleet is incompetent or there's a double standard at work.

Tits or pointy ears rule. The evidence is in your bored spinoff-obsessed posts.

 

[BillJ]

Problem being Spock was only first officer, that we know of, for five years. On a five-year deep space expedition. Which probably meant they wouldn't cycle personnel in the same way a craft close to home would.

Yeah, the unambitious "science office" that was placed sencond in command. Either Starfleet is incompetent or there's a double standard at work.

Tits or pointy ears rule. The evidence is in your bored spinoff-obsessed posts.

I've read your post a couple times and it comes off as nonsensical.

Question: did Spock ever actually turn down a command? Can't take something that is never offered.

 

[Phantom]

^No, he didn't. In fact he was the Captain of the Enterprise in ST II.

 

[Deleted 69012]

Re: Picard is a walking trigger warning after a certain point

They might make some room on that tombstone for "Guy who saved Earth from the Borg."

Why would he be sharing a tombstone with Data?

Someone's unconventional tactics put Data (and Troi, and Crusher, and O'Brien) in a room with Locutus. Just because the Enterprise is filled with exceptional officers, it doesn't mean their commander doesn't deserve any credit.

Riker saved Earth and the Alpha Quadrant by gambling on a daring long shot. When Kira Nerys doesn't know who he is in "Defiant," I'm surprised Jadzia doesn't just say, "Y'know, that guy who saved Earth from those unstoppable aliens from the other side of the galaxy? Will Riker is kind of a big deal."

 

[Nebusj]

Question: did Spock ever actually turn down a command? Can't take something that is never offered.

There is this ambiguous exchange from 'The Enterprise Incident':

COMMANDER: You are a superior being. Why do you not command?
SPOCK: I do not desire a ship of my own.
COMMANDER: Or is it that no one has offered you, a Vulcan, that opportunity?
SPOCK: Such opportunities are extremely rare.

That supports the idea that Spock hasn't been offered command, but it also supports the idea that Spock had rejected command.