Boom. That's the answer. Will Riker heads off and gets his own command and that side of him is fulfilled. Tom Riker and Deanna become a couple and that side of him is fulfilled.
Will Riker refusing own command
- Thread starter Kilana2
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Boom. That's the answer. Will Riker heads off and gets his own command and that side of him is fulfilled. Tom Riker and Deanna become a couple and that side of him is fulfilled.
Going back to the real world don't some people make great second in commands but aren't really suited for being in command all of the time. Would Starfleet really force a promotion on to someone if they felt that the person was best in the role they currently did.
Not saying this was the case with Riker but in general.
Not saying this was the case with Riker but in general.
Here are some things people forget, when it comes to Riker turning down his own command:
1. By the 24th century, captains were rarely supposed to leave the ship on away missions. I think Riker understood this, especially when he brings this up to Picard, himself. Perhaps Riker felt he was too young to give up away missions.
2. Riker was only 35 at the time of Encounter at Farpoint, and McCoy was 135! People live a lot longer by TNG. So, what is the rush? Riker, in fact, ANY starfleet officer will likely have a career spanning at least 50 to 60 years by the 24th century. Picard did, at least (from 2323 to at least 2379!). If that is the case, what is the rush for Riker to assume a command at age 35?
3. The ships Riker was offered in TNG were DOOMED. The only reason they were brought up narratively, was basically to show Riker dodged a bullet and actually made the CORRECT choice in turning them down.
USS Drake (Destroyed just before the events of Arsenal of Freedom)
USS Melbourne (Destroyed by the Borg
USS Aries (doomed to be boring: deep space sensor sweeps...hardly a career builder, there. Riker would have been bored doing it)
4. Riker DID make captain, TWICE. Had he not saved Picard, he would have remained captain of the Enterprise. Therefore, technically speaking, Riker achieved his goal of becoming captain before 40, and when he did captain the Enterprise, he proved himself much like NuKirk did. Then, of course, there is Titan.
5. Let's not forget that under Riker, Earth was saved in BOBW. Riker would have had a command of his choice, possibly even the Enterprise, if he really wanted it and pushed for it. Picard would likely have even let him have it for saving his life, because it is revealed in Family, he was considering leaving Starfleet anyway. After saving Earth, I think Starfleet would wait as long as Riker felt he was ready to accept a command. Obviously, they did, hence his command on the Titan. And really, after saving Earth, if Starfleet dinged Riker for not taking a command right away, would they be an organization worth working for, anyway, if that's the kind of thanks he got?
6. Everyone bashes Riker for not taking a captain's chair, saying it hurt his career. Well, by that logic, why aren't we questioning why Picard turned down the admiralty on multiple occasions? The answer is that both Riker and Picard had distinguished careers, and stayed where they believed they would do the most good. AND I think Starfleet recognized that.
7. As previously pointed out by others, Riker felt it was better to be second in command of the Federation Flagship with all the adventure that goes along with it, than to command an insignificant, older ship in the hind end of space.
8. Riker felt the Enterprise crew was his family. Riker didn't have much of a real family growing up and was estranged from his father. In many ways, Picard was probably a father figure to Riker. Riker was good friends with Worf, Data, Crusher, and Geordi. Also, Troi, who ultimately became his wife was on the Enterprise, and I think that played no small part in his decision to stay (It did in the Icarus Factor, and re-affirmed with his jealously of Worf and Tom Riker, and ultimately marrying her in Nemesis).
9. Ultimately, serving as Picard's XO for 15 years, and assuming command at age 50, made Riker a far better captain than if he jumped on the first command that came his way, IMHO. Age 50, in the 24th century is not OLD. In fact, that is probably the average age people make captain, anyway.
1. By the 24th century, captains were rarely supposed to leave the ship on away missions. I think Riker understood this, especially when he brings this up to Picard, himself. Perhaps Riker felt he was too young to give up away missions.
2. Riker was only 35 at the time of Encounter at Farpoint, and McCoy was 135! People live a lot longer by TNG. So, what is the rush? Riker, in fact, ANY starfleet officer will likely have a career spanning at least 50 to 60 years by the 24th century. Picard did, at least (from 2323 to at least 2379!). If that is the case, what is the rush for Riker to assume a command at age 35?
3. The ships Riker was offered in TNG were DOOMED. The only reason they were brought up narratively, was basically to show Riker dodged a bullet and actually made the CORRECT choice in turning them down.
USS Drake (Destroyed just before the events of Arsenal of Freedom)
USS Melbourne (Destroyed by the Borg
USS Aries (doomed to be boring: deep space sensor sweeps...hardly a career builder, there. Riker would have been bored doing it)
4. Riker DID make captain, TWICE. Had he not saved Picard, he would have remained captain of the Enterprise. Therefore, technically speaking, Riker achieved his goal of becoming captain before 40, and when he did captain the Enterprise, he proved himself much like NuKirk did. Then, of course, there is Titan.
5. Let's not forget that under Riker, Earth was saved in BOBW. Riker would have had a command of his choice, possibly even the Enterprise, if he really wanted it and pushed for it. Picard would likely have even let him have it for saving his life, because it is revealed in Family, he was considering leaving Starfleet anyway. After saving Earth, I think Starfleet would wait as long as Riker felt he was ready to accept a command. Obviously, they did, hence his command on the Titan. And really, after saving Earth, if Starfleet dinged Riker for not taking a command right away, would they be an organization worth working for, anyway, if that's the kind of thanks he got?
6. Everyone bashes Riker for not taking a captain's chair, saying it hurt his career. Well, by that logic, why aren't we questioning why Picard turned down the admiralty on multiple occasions? The answer is that both Riker and Picard had distinguished careers, and stayed where they believed they would do the most good. AND I think Starfleet recognized that.
7. As previously pointed out by others, Riker felt it was better to be second in command of the Federation Flagship with all the adventure that goes along with it, than to command an insignificant, older ship in the hind end of space.
8. Riker felt the Enterprise crew was his family. Riker didn't have much of a real family growing up and was estranged from his father. In many ways, Picard was probably a father figure to Riker. Riker was good friends with Worf, Data, Crusher, and Geordi. Also, Troi, who ultimately became his wife was on the Enterprise, and I think that played no small part in his decision to stay (It did in the Icarus Factor, and re-affirmed with his jealously of Worf and Tom Riker, and ultimately marrying her in Nemesis).
9. Ultimately, serving as Picard's XO for 15 years, and assuming command at age 50, made Riker a far better captain than if he jumped on the first command that came his way, IMHO. Age 50, in the 24th century is not OLD. In fact, that is probably the average age people make captain, anyway.
I don't understand the "ruined career" speech every time someone mentions Riker not accepting a command of his own. If there was a larger paycheck for captains than 1st officers, then I would get it, but destroying a career by staying where he is? What does he have to lose? Why leave a comfortable situation just to receive more responsibility?
Maybe Riker was just waiting for the right ship to be offered to him, not some 20 year old repaired Excelsior class thing...
Maybe he just felt that the big chair is too much for him, too much responsibility?
There are a lot of reasons. Maybe he didn't want to leave his friends? I wouldn't want to.
Maybe Riker was just waiting for the right ship to be offered to him, not some 20 year old repaired Excelsior class thing...
Maybe he just felt that the big chair is too much for him, too much responsibility?
There are a lot of reasons. Maybe he didn't want to leave his friends? I wouldn't want to.
At one point, the rumor was that this was exactly the plan. A way to "reboot" the character but ultimately they didn't do it.
Even if the economics of the 24th century are different, the needs of the service aren't. Officers "parking" in ship slots prevent other officers from moving up through the system. They can't just shut down the Academy after all.
If Starfleet has just 5,000 ships, then that's only 10,000 CO/XO slots from a population of many trillions, and a Starfleet personnel pool that probably numbers in the many millions.
And every year, the Academy graduates another class. Who can't even get lesser berths if the people in those berths are either parked themselves or waiting for higher slots that are themselves being parked in.
The thing is, the best way to find out whether someone will be a good CO is to try them out as XO. And even then there is a vast difference in responsibility, because if anyone screws up, even the XO, it's still ultimately the captain who's responsible. And some can't make the transition, but most can, they've been working toward it their whole career. One of the best books on the subject of the "weight of command" is Run Silent, Run Deep by Ned Beach, who received the Navy Cross as XO of a submarine in WW2 and then commanded his own boat after the war.
I disagree with that about Aries, as I mentioned above: "Routine" exploration in Trek frequently becomes very much not-routine and dangerous; you never know where an able captain might be needed. Besides, Picard also implied that it might be an important first contact mission, requiring exploration and diplomatic expertise. And if Riker picks and chooses his assignments because he might find them boring or too hazardous, he might be in the wrong line of work. It certainly seems a poor counterpoint to Picard's example of obligation to duty.
If the take on the Riker character is that he's someone who prefers to be comfortable and avoid further responsibility, I can see where you might get that. But I don't think that's what the writers had in mind.
One wonders if the Riker who was capable of producing miraculous results in dire situations about the Hathaway, or against the Borg, or the Sona subspace implosion weapons or such might have been able to do something that might have saved the Drake or the Melbourne.
I wouldn't have thought twice about Riker staying XO of the Enterprise for seven years, and actually quite unusual to be offered an independent command after only one year. But turning down commands is quite strange organizational behavior. Yes, it would mean leaving behind Deanna and other friends, but that's the way of the service, past present and future. There's something to be said for a captain not having too many close friends among the crew from before he became captain anyway.
The offer for USS Aries was probably too soon after getting the position of first officer on USS Enterprise. Only about a year, year and a half maybe. And that was at most two years after he turned down USS Drake for that position.
USS Melbourne on the other hand was probably about the right time, yet it was also at the start of a known crisis. That is not the time the shuffle the deck so to speak. You don't want a fresh captain on a ship he doesn't know with a crew he doesn't know, nor do the know him or his command style, jumping right into probably the largest battle Starfleet has been in for the last decade. That is just asking for trouble. Could Riker had beat the Borg at Wolf 359 in either an Excelsior or a Nebula (depending on which ship it really was) without having been in on the contact operations with Enterprise prior to the battle? While he might have been able to save the ship, Riker was willing to ram the Borg. He also would have wanted to rescue Picard if given the chance. We also can't be sure Enterprise would have survived or even made its discoveries with Shelby as XO then CO after they took Picard. Rotating shields and weapons frequencies was something discovered on Enterprise, as was the attempt of the deflector dish weapon. Would Riker had that knowledge? If Shelby didn't get to try it, would Riker have at Wolf 359? Would it have worked if it was from a different ship with a different frequency?
USS Melbourne on the other hand was probably about the right time, yet it was also at the start of a known crisis. That is not the time the shuffle the deck so to speak. You don't want a fresh captain on a ship he doesn't know with a crew he doesn't know, nor do the know him or his command style, jumping right into probably the largest battle Starfleet has been in for the last decade. That is just asking for trouble. Could Riker had beat the Borg at Wolf 359 in either an Excelsior or a Nebula (depending on which ship it really was) without having been in on the contact operations with Enterprise prior to the battle? While he might have been able to save the ship, Riker was willing to ram the Borg. He also would have wanted to rescue Picard if given the chance. We also can't be sure Enterprise would have survived or even made its discoveries with Shelby as XO then CO after they took Picard. Rotating shields and weapons frequencies was something discovered on Enterprise, as was the attempt of the deflector dish weapon. Would Riker had that knowledge? If Shelby didn't get to try it, would Riker have at Wolf 359? Would it have worked if it was from a different ship with a different frequency?
that's what I assumed.
And the post mentioning where Picard assumes command on Star Fleet's behalf. Although , pausing a moment here, and correct me if my memory is off, in First Contact I don't think he had time to call back up. The window to the past was closing quick. He had to act fast, not forgetting of course, his personal vendetta if you want to call it that.
I'm too tired to go through the entire thread right now, but even though Riker was able to be promoted maybe he wasn't just emotionally ready to depart from everyone. Kind of like a kid and his parent waiting until he's willing to leave the house. But it probably did hurt his career waiting off.
The Riker turning down his own command was a Catch 22 situation.
Obviously as long as Frakes wanted to stay on the show he couldn't accept a promotion or else that would have been the end of him as a regular.
So the two options were to either give a reason why he chose to stay on the Enterprise, or to just ignore it completely. Neither of which were really good options from a story standpoint.
I think they could have had the situation come up once, have Riker say "No thanks" and give his reasons and let it drop. But it seemed at least once or twice a season the writers felt it was important to revisit the issue and it just got old.
The real problem is in the military if you refuse promotion, the service isn't very understanding to just let you keep your current position for as long as you want. They'll most likely kick you out of the way to some lesser position in favor of someone who wants to climb the ladder and more than likely have you take early retirement.
Obviously as long as Frakes wanted to stay on the show he couldn't accept a promotion or else that would have been the end of him as a regular.
So the two options were to either give a reason why he chose to stay on the Enterprise, or to just ignore it completely. Neither of which were really good options from a story standpoint.
I think they could have had the situation come up once, have Riker say "No thanks" and give his reasons and let it drop. But it seemed at least once or twice a season the writers felt it was important to revisit the issue and it just got old.
The real problem is in the military if you refuse promotion, the service isn't very understanding to just let you keep your current position for as long as you want. They'll most likely kick you out of the way to some lesser position in favor of someone who wants to climb the ladder and more than likely have you take early retirement.
The Enterprise is clearly where is all happens and Captain Picard is a superb bloke to have in charge, plus there is a bar, his Mrs is on board, there would be no pay rise as Captain and he probably thought Picard might kick the bucket on an away mission at some point.
I suppose there is some merit to that argument, but at least the way I interpreted the mention of the Aires, I have always had the sense that the writers were trying to convey Riker had a choice between a relatively insignificant command of a relatively insignificant ship with a boring mission just to please his estranged father, and being second in command of the flag ship while continuing to be mentored by one of starfleets greatest captains, as well as being around crew members who at that point became a surrogate family to him, as well as his (at that time) unrequited love, Troi.
So, seen in that light, I always had the sense that Riker made the right call on that one by staying.
Well, I suppose that can be argued. Maybe it wouldn't necessarily have turned out that way for those ships, had Riker been in command, but I have always interpreted those examples as Riker "dodging a bullet," and that the writers intended it to be seen that way: much like the stories you hear about someone who misses a plane, then later finds out that plane had crashed, and had they been aboard, they would have died.
Frankly, I don't see Starfleet going out of its way to offer Riker anything after his performance in Chain of Command. He proved himself to be insubordinate, immature, apparently unable to flow the simplest command from his CO without pitching a hissy fit, and all of this at a point where Enterprise was potentially going into a combat situation. clearly he does not have the temperament needed for a command/leadership position. He's luck he didn't face a courts-martial after his escapades, and he was probably just lucky to have kept the job he had. Riker should never see anything even close to a starship command and would probably end up retiring from a desk job at best.
Yeah, so? Makes it even worse. 15+ years time in grade as a commander in the same job? Not exactly the picture of a motivated go-getter. There must be plenty of other talented professional officers in the fleet deserving of a command before Riker.
And back to Chain of Command: not only did he openly defy his CO, he did absolutely nothing to discourage the same sorts of behavior from his subordinates. If I was in the admiralty at Starfleet I would have turfed Riker's butt so fast it'd make your head spin.
And back to Chain of Command: not only did he openly defy his CO, he did absolutely nothing to discourage the same sorts of behavior from his subordinates. If I was in the admiralty at Starfleet I would have turfed Riker's butt so fast it'd make your head spin.
They all died in the Dominion War ;p
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