The Federation and Starfleet
- Thread starter telerites
- Start date
The writers just hadn't figured out the finer details yet.
Yup, no real intent involved.
Basically, we never hear of UESPA again until the last season of ST:Enterprise, where the organization name is seen along "Starfleet Command" in a decorative symbol - although many starship dedication plaques of TNG and DS9 also featured UESPA, even if the small print was invisible to the audience.
So even to this day, everything is open to speculation. Is UESPA a separate, parallel organization to UFP Starfleet? An integral part and sub-segment of the United Earth Starfleet? Both? Neither? Does the "United Earth" part in the name mean the organization represents the whole Earth and nothing but the Earth? Or is it just an inaccurate trade name of some sort? Does it become anachronistic at some point of Trek pseudohistory or does it remain accurate? Take your set of picks.
Timo Saloniemi
Basically, we never hear of UESPA again until the last season of ST:Enterprise, where the organization name is seen along "Starfleet Command" in a decorative symbol - although many starship dedication plaques of TNG and DS9 also featured UESPA, even if the small print was invisible to the audience.
So even to this day, everything is open to speculation. Is UESPA a separate, parallel organization to UFP Starfleet? An integral part and sub-segment of the United Earth Starfleet? Both? Neither? Does the "United Earth" part in the name mean the organization represents the whole Earth and nothing but the Earth? Or is it just an inaccurate trade name of some sort? Does it become anachronistic at some point of Trek pseudohistory or does it remain accurate? Take your set of picks.
Timo Saloniemi
Federation membership requires that you relinquish control of your space agency/armed forces and allow them to be absorbed into Starfleet. When Bajor first agreed to sign Federation membership, this was one of Starfleet's first priorites. Yes Vulcan has defense vessels, Earth has a Mars Defense Perimeter, Betazed has their own planetary defense systems, but this is totally different from the 22nd century alliance, where Vulcans had fleets of Surak class starships, Starfleet only answered to Earth's command council, and the Andorians and Tellarites had their own space agencies/military forces.
By the 23rd century Vulcans were serving on Starfleet ships like the Enterprise and Intrepid. And Earth no longer had absolute control over Starfleet. Instead, Starfleet now answers to the Federation Council
So no, Earth, Vulcan and Andor are no longer sovereign states. Sovereignty means your own government is the highest level of government. The moment they acknowledge the Federation Council and its President and the highest authority, they are no longer sovereign. It's the Federation as a whole that is the sovereign state.
And no I dont read the novels lol, but I dont see what difference that can make. At the end of the day, the Federation Council and its President is considered the central government and the highest level of authority. Whereas nobody considers the United Nations a government.
California invades just about every other state all the time. We just call it tourism. We've taken the Alamo three dozen times in the last decade.
As for what the Federation did when Cardassia invaded Bajor. We don't know what they did, but we know the Federation was in a state of conflict with Cardassia over a long period of time until about the time Cardassia left Bajor. It is entirely possible that the Federation was trying to help Bajor, but it led to war with the Cardassian Union.
Lol ya the Federation did fight a war with the Cardassians, but it had nothing to do with helping the Bajorans. Picard clearly said to the Bajoran refugees that his prime directive forbids Starfleet from intervening with armed force. All he could do was give them food and blankets
And I would like to invade California some day and tear up the that coastal highway with a rented sports car. If only I lived close enough to drive my own car over there since I've already souped it up like a Delta Flyer lol
I see the Federation more like NATO than the UN. The UN seeks to have every nation on Earth as members.
I don't believe that the Federation aspired to be an universal organization. I don't think it had any intention to have, say, the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Ferenghis, Borgs, Dominion, etc. to become members of club Fed.
The Federation seems more like an organization of independent member planets with similar values and/or interests. It also seems to serve as a defense alliance, with Starfleet being a joint military force, while each member may still maintain its own local military.
And like NATO, the Federation appear to have a dominant member. Within the Fed, that is Earth.
In TUC, the Klingon chancellor's daughter said that "the Federation is no more than a homo sapiens only club." She was attempting to mock Kirk and co. But her point was essentially accurate.
Starfleet seems to be run and manned predominantly by humans. Nothing wrong with that. Often times, an organization functions best when there is a leader.
And because Starfleet is the most important and meaningful organization within the Federation, humans are thus the dominant members of the Fed.
Vulcan and Andor have absolute sovereignty within their own territorial claims. If a Federation citizen commits a crime on Vulcan/Andor/wherever, it is local law they submit to, not Federation law. This is shown numerous times in Trek.
Every state in the US has state laws. Every city has municipal laws. Is New York City a sovereign state too because they have stricter local gun laws than say, Texas?
It's really quite simple lol
Sovereignty = highest level of government
That said, it's not unknown for an agency or organization to have more than one reporting authority, such as the Navy's nuclear reactor programs, which are considered "dual hatted", and have responsibilities to both the Department of Defense and Department of Energy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Reactors
ST IV. If what you said was true, then Vulcan could not offer asylum to Kirk and his crew. They would have immediately been turned over to Federation authorities.
For interstellar matters only.
Only because we've never allowed it to assume it's full potential authority (arguably correctly, but that is neither here nor there). The Federation is what a fully-realized UN would look like. Another good example of a UN-type government structure was the original US Articles of Confederation (pre-Constitution).
https://youtu.be/xy5jAixHhSA
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i61/0do/trek/futureimperfect070.jpg~original
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20141225202802&path-prefix=en
Uh, no, not even within the context of that particular film. Dax obviously wasn't human, neither was Valeris or Spock. Oh, and there's the little matter of the then Federation President at that time, who was an Effrosian.
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/President_of_the_United_Federation_of_Planets (scroll down to 2293).
In fact, of the 4 known Federation presidents, 2 were not-human (Ra-ghoratreii [2293, name from non-canon], and Jaresh Enyo [2372])
There are plenty of non-human members of the Federation, both within Starfleet and otherwise
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Unnamed_USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701%29_personnel
3 of the 4 named founding members of the Federation are non-human species as well
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_members
See above.
Way I always saw it as well.
The Federation has many features that NATO has.
True, NATO isn't a government, although it does have a body called the North Atlantic Council which can vaguely be seen as something akin to the Federation Council. As I said vaguely.
There is no question that the US is the leader of NATO. But all the Secretary Generals of NATO have been non-Americans. But that doesn't mean the US hasn't been and continues to be the dominant member of NATO.
And NATO was not founded solely by the US. There were other co founding member nations. But that still doesn't mean that the US isn't the leader.
The Chancellor's daughter in TUC was essentially accurate.
Also in TUC, the C in C was a human; as were everyone else in the meeting at the beginning of the movie except for Spock (as far as I could tell). Humans apparently do dominate the Starfleet command structure. By dominate, I don't mean that in a negative way.
Also, from what I have seen, most if not all of the admirals in the various series who have been shown to give orders to the various captains have been human.
As a practical matter, humans seem to be the leaders of Starfleet, and I assume, the Federation as well.
C
C57D
Guest
For me the best explanation for humanities supremacy in both StarFleet and the UFP as a whole is that we are the most motivated to explore, push the boundaries outward and colonise what we find out there. The other three founding races are too busy with their own concerns, and so just let us get on with it.
The Vulcans/Vulcanians are too interested in science for science sake, and so only maintain a few colonies, and a limited Vulcan Science Academy fleet. Also the restrictions of Ponn Farr slows reproduction, in comparison to the"like rabbits" Terrans!
The Andorians have (according the FASA game background) a "colony for every tribe" thing going on, and don't care too much beyond that.
And the Tellerites are more interested in trade, and see colonies as a lesser concern, that just supports trade.
So the fast breeding,inquisitive and acquisitive Terrans lead the way in both exploration and colonisation, supported and protected by a mostly Terran led and crewed StarFleet.
Obviously, the above only apply to the TOS era and earlier, as by the time of the movies the UFP has grown and opened up to a far wider range of peoples and planets.
The Vulcans/Vulcanians are too interested in science for science sake, and so only maintain a few colonies, and a limited Vulcan Science Academy fleet. Also the restrictions of Ponn Farr slows reproduction, in comparison to the"like rabbits" Terrans!
The Andorians have (according the FASA game background) a "colony for every tribe" thing going on, and don't care too much beyond that.
And the Tellerites are more interested in trade, and see colonies as a lesser concern, that just supports trade.
So the fast breeding,inquisitive and acquisitive Terrans lead the way in both exploration and colonisation, supported and protected by a mostly Terran led and crewed StarFleet.
Obviously, the above only apply to the TOS era and earlier, as by the time of the movies the UFP has grown and opened up to a far wider range of peoples and planets.
C
C57D
Guest
Following on from my earlier post, I would like to observe that Terran accquisitiveness makes us more like the Klingons than we would care to admit.
Methods may be diametrically opposed, but the plan and desire pretty familiar!
Methods may be diametrically opposed, but the plan and desire pretty familiar!
in the DS9 episode "Rapture" a Starfleet Admiral states "The Bajoran militia must be absorbed into starfleet," absorbed as in to accommodate, or take in, this might be like when a new member nation in NATO alters their military command and support structures so as that they can co-ordinate joint operations with other NATO members . But the member retains direct control over their military.
Never was relinquishing control mentioned, the Bajorians (once a member) would need to be able to have their forces interact with other Federation forces.
NATO regularly conducts integration exercises with the Navies and land forces of it's members military's. The BALTOPS 2015 exercise this past June involved ships from 17 NATO and partner countries, and also Marines from four nations.
During TOS the Enterprise carried out mission for the Federation, but also directly for Earth.
Why would the sovereign Members of the Federation acknowledge the Federation Council as their highest authority? That makes no sense. They're not subordinate states in a nation, they're members in a interstellar organization. A defense and trade alliance
The Federation is never once called a sovereign state, but twice it's directly called an alliance (Kirk and Daniels).
The Federation does have a governing body, but it has no authority over the Members, the Members (collectively) have authority over the Federation.
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Vulcan offered political asylum to Kirk? I don't remember this part. Can you recall which scene this was in?
Kirk mentioned being in a "Vulcan exile" but nothing specific that the Vulcan government was preventing Starfleet from arresting them. In fact, McCoy was complaining that Starfleet wouldn't send a ship to pick them up even when they agreed to face prosecution. They had to fly themselves home.
Also, the crew was staying with Sarek and Amanda. If my son's closest friends just risked their lives to save my son, I wouldn't be eager to call the police on them even if they are FBI most wanted
And the Federation government is not only responsible for foreign affairs. All Federation citizens are subject to its federal laws whether you are from Vulcan or the colonies way out in the DMZ. They also have a constitution and a Federation supreme court. So the Federation government is the highest level of authority in issues of domestic law as well.
Just like the how the US supreme court is the highest authority in its land. There's no court in the United Nations or NATO that can overturn its decision
Federation = NATO? hmm ok well NATO has no government, no president, no legislature, no laws, no courts or supreme courts.
Federation has all of the above plus it is one unified command structure for its armed forces. The US can invade Iraq without the support of other NATO countries. That's not going to happen with Starfleet. The Vulcan government can't say they dont support the invasion of Cardassia and order the USS TKumbra to stay put. If you think that the Federation is still a regular alliance, then where is the Andorian Guard or Vulcan High Command during the Dominion war or the Borg invasions?
That's why they were there. Ambassador Sarek offered them the protection of Vulcan for going after Spock. As long as they stayed on Vulcan, the Federation couldn't arrest them. It wasn't made explicitly clear in the final film, but that's what happened.
There was a scene scripted in III, but not filmed IIRC (it was however in the novelization) where Uhura, after beaming Kirk and Co to the Enterprise, went straight to the Vulcan Embassy to avoid arrest by claiming asylum.
That's what the concept of asylum means, dude. One government protecting (for whatever reason) a person from the power of another government.
Has nothing to do with asylum.
Only in those matters where the Federation has jurisdiction.
So does the UN, but under different names.
No. Flat wrong. Proven numerous times. Domestic law is the judisdiction of local planetary authorities. This goes all the way back to "Wolf in the Fold".
Only because the full extent of the UN has never been ratified and put into action.
