The Federation and Starfleet
- Thread starter telerites
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double post. deleted
damnit. everytime i try to edit it posts again lol. sorry
You wrote the equation. I didn't. What I wrote was "I see the Federation more like NATO than the UN."
Anyway, from all the Trek episodes and movies that I have seen, I got the impression that the Federation functions more like an alliance, such as NATO, than a national government.
Having the structures of a government doesn't necessarily make it so. The UN has the General Assembly, a Secretary General, the International Court of Justice, international laws, etc. But a government, it is not.
Member planets of the UFP have embassies in each others planets and exchange ambassadors such as Sarek. In TMP, Kirk sent his condolences to Sonak's family thru the Vulcan embassy. Member planets apparently are independent sovereign entities, not mere provinces of the UFP. The Fed comes across as an alliance of independent states.
As for the matter of unified command structure: for example in Afghanistan, all the NATO nations that have forces there operate under a unified command structure with an American officer as supreme allied commander (or some similar title). Even though there is a unified command, it is still an alliance, not a national government.
Many American forces in Afghanistan do not operate under NATO command, though. As a sovereign nation, the US is not compelled to have all its forces under NATO command.
In the ep “Yesterday is Tomorrow”, Kirk said “our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency.” Apparently, Earth has a fleet that can operate independently of the Fed’s Starfleet. This indicates that Earth maintains its sovereignty. The Federation does not seem to be the supreme government of the members of the UFP.
I'm with section31agent on the Vulcan exile. There is nothing in the film to indicate Vulcan has offered them asylum. My take is they were already on Vulcan ( to bring Spock there) so the council said "stay there till we figure this thing out".
While authors doing the novelizations often include scenes cut from the final film, they also add material of their own. Sometimes to "fix" thing they find wrong.
While authors doing the novelizations often include scenes cut from the final film, they also add material of their own. Sometimes to "fix" thing they find wrong.
What is that based on? While Jaris discussed closing the planet to space vehicles, no one said they weren't part of the Federation.
Did the Council even know where they were? Kirk could simply have been hiding, and the "political protection" of "Vulcan" would have been limited to Sarek not telling anybody that Kirk was sleeping on his sofa. Or possibly denying it if directly asked, as somebody like Morrow might have had his suspicions. A simple "Nope. And Vulcans never lie. <raises a challenging eyebrow>" would protect Kirk better than any national sovereignty.
I guess the only even halfway "telling" phrase in the episode would be this:
(emphasis mine)
But this could simply indicate that Jaris is a civilian and sees Kirk as an outsider simply because Kirk is a military man; both could still be UFP citizens.
This is contrast with the many references to "your Federation" that unambiguously define Klaestron IV as a non-UFP world in DS9 "Dax" (even when the old Encyclopedia and the Star Charts for some reason consider her a UFP world)...
Timo Saloniemi
When I started this thread, I had not figured it would be so active but I'm glad it is. Lots of good discussion.
Let me more another questions. If I'm not mistaken, the Federation has recruited planets/races to join the UFP. The Enterprise it seems has been on such a mission represebting the Federation. The of course there are planets that have applied for membership.
In regard to those that recruited, has a decision already been made to allow them entry?
More questions. Who decides? Do all active members have the same number and voting power? Or is there an elected council that makes membership decisions?
Is there any written work in any novel or technical that I can get that outlines the membership requirements? I know level of development is a consideration.
Thanks again.
Let me more another questions. If I'm not mistaken, the Federation has recruited planets/races to join the UFP. The Enterprise it seems has been on such a mission represebting the Federation. The of course there are planets that have applied for membership.
In regard to those that recruited, has a decision already been made to allow them entry?
More questions. Who decides? Do all active members have the same number and voting power? Or is there an elected council that makes membership decisions?
Is there any written work in any novel or technical that I can get that outlines the membership requirements? I know level of development is a consideration.
Thanks again.
C
C57D
Guest
Using this dictionary definition -"the formation of a political unity, with a central government, by a number of separate states, each of which retains control of its own internal affairs" - it would seem that the UFP is a centralized government controlling and legislating over the interstellar affairs of individual states, who retain internal autonomy.
However, going by TOS episodes, things become a little more complex. The powers that be, of both Vulcan and Argellius, for example were deferred to by Kirk in all internal matters (even with the lives of senior officers at risk!). But in the case of Janus VI, Kirk very much controlled the situation, even using his security officers to hold back the local authority!
Could the UFP, be a Federation of Interstellar states that have autonomy within their planets and even (if coherent) their space? In the early days of TOS, could there be a Vulcan space, a Terran space, an Andorian space etc, all sitting next to each other, making up a unified UFP? With smaller, maybe independent, planets, nestling in between the larger members?
Could each "pocket empire" have it's own StarFleet, or equivalent, which explains why the StarFleet that we see is Terran crewed and controlled - since it operates only in Terra's part of the UFP?
And could the mentioned Axanar event which "allowed me and Mr Spock to be brothers" have been a formalizing of this arrangement, previously less coherent?
Lots of questions, I know, and probably muddying the waters further. But all opinions welcomed.
However, going by TOS episodes, things become a little more complex. The powers that be, of both Vulcan and Argellius, for example were deferred to by Kirk in all internal matters (even with the lives of senior officers at risk!). But in the case of Janus VI, Kirk very much controlled the situation, even using his security officers to hold back the local authority!
Could the UFP, be a Federation of Interstellar states that have autonomy within their planets and even (if coherent) their space? In the early days of TOS, could there be a Vulcan space, a Terran space, an Andorian space etc, all sitting next to each other, making up a unified UFP? With smaller, maybe independent, planets, nestling in between the larger members?
Could each "pocket empire" have it's own StarFleet, or equivalent, which explains why the StarFleet that we see is Terran crewed and controlled - since it operates only in Terra's part of the UFP?
And could the mentioned Axanar event which "allowed me and Mr Spock to be brothers" have been a formalizing of this arrangement, previously less coherent?
Lots of questions, I know, and probably muddying the waters further. But all opinions welcomed.
Two centuries after ENT what are Vulcan and Andorian ships going to look like? Let start with the several small starship's seen in Sacrifice of Angels (the "fighters"). Who did they belong to, we never saw any markings or insignia, the Andorians perhaps?
Modern day, relatively few countries build their own large naval vessels, they import them from the few countries with the necessary shipyards. Brazil's flagship was built in France.
Many countries sell their older vessels. We see a fair number of near-century old Excelsiors during the Dominion War, owned by whom? Many Federation Members might be incapable of constructing large starships, however their fleets do operate such ships.
In Take me out to the holosuite, we see the T'Kumbra, it is entirely crewed by Vulcans, it's never referred to as a Starfleet vessel, and at one point Sisko suggests that it's captain take it to a Vulcan starbase for repairs.
NATO does have a unified command structure. All NATO members (regardless of size) have a equal voice in NATO operations.
Who says Vulcan couldn't do just that? This might put them in violation of treaties and could result in their expulsion from the Federation. But they could.
In "The Cloud Minders." Plasus (the High Advisor of Ardana) says to Kirk "Your Federation orders do not entitle you to defy local governments."
Not "my government," but governments in the plural. Ardana is a Federation Member, this is pointed by Kirk himself during the episode. The Federation isn't sovereign over the Member governments.
The Members are sovereign over the Federation Council.
The United Federation of Planets seem to function, on a general level, like the original United States of America, under the Articles of Confederation. The days when it was a collection of countries that had a central office for dealing with other counties. That central office could raise an army if needed, but the other counties could do as they like for the most part. Or possibly under the US Constitution for the first 70 years before the Civil War changed just how the Federal government relates to the State governments. In the days when the states had more power to do as they wished in matters that didn't concern foreign powers.
It is more an alliance of planets that have colonies of their own, than a Interstellar country with planetary states and territories.
It is more an alliance of planets that have colonies of their own, than a Interstellar country with planetary states and territories.
By that definition, you have just admitted that Vulcan is a sovereign government. If Vulcan is fully under Federation jurisdiction and control, nothing prevents the Council from having Starfleet show up and take them back. Therfore Kirk and crew could not be "exiled" there, yet that is the exact term he uses.
Then why didn't Starfleet just show up and arrest them?
Answer: they couldn't, as Kirk and crew were under Vulcan's protection as a sovereign state.
The point is that if Federation law was absolute and unchallengeable Starfleet could have been sent to arrest them at any time. It wasn't. Because they were protected under Vulcan sovereignty.
But not local space.
And, again, the Federation is the fully implemented version of what the UN is intended to be. A fully functioning international government for issues of international concern. With individual nation-states allowed to govern themselves on local matters within broad guidelines.
And so does the Federation in relation to it's own member planets.
But still subject to the Federation edict that local matters were under local sovereignty.
To use one example, it's like Eric Snowden. The American government would absolutely love to arrest him and try him publicly. But they can't. Because he's in a sovereign country that is sheltering him from extradition.
So, while yes Vulcan does have a membership in the Federation, no the Federation does not have legal jurisdiction within Vulcan sovereign territory. And the Federation couldn't have (say) Earth just show up and claim them as citizens of various countries on Earth, because just as with the Federation, Earth doesn't have the ability to do so on "Vulcan soil.".
Although they could request extradition.
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Yeah, that's a pretty clear-cut statement, in an episode where other "Your Federation" phrases nicely establish that Ardana is a solid member of the UFP.
Perhaps significantly, both Vulcan and Ardana are powerful members - one has clout thanks to being a founding member (a pseudo-fact long in coming but now finally established) and an important supplier of shrewd diplomats, the other controls a key resource and is haven to great artists nobody wants to be seen dissing. Perhaps Kirk would be more aggressive on worlds with less influence over UFP affairs?
Never established. Might just as well be that the heroes were simply hiding "underground"; it would be difficult for Starfleet to figure out where they went, especially as they went there in an invisible spaceship!
Kirk frequently exercises jurisdiction on the sovereign territory of worlds that aren't even UFP members. Sometimes this is in "hot pursuit" of a fugitive or a rogue, yet the trail might be cold by months, years or even centuries. More often this is simply because Kirk forces "human rights" down the throats of the locals.
So, do cultures join the UFP to escape the persecution of Starfleet?
Timo Saloniemi
Nothing says that all Federation Members are completely equal in influence and power.
I've considered that the "Federation Council" might not be a general assembly of all Members, but instead more a analog of the UN security council. It's composed of the founding members, some other heavy hitters, and a few want-a-be's. The other Member representatives do meet, but lack the power of Council Members.
Might be one way to get Starfleet off their backs. Of course this also might be a method employed by the Federation to "encourage" a reluctant species to join the Federation.
The novelization (iirc) had Kirk being visited on Vulcan by another Starship captain to discuss turning himself in. There wasn't any effort to arrest him, and Starfleet did know exactly where he was.
Just one of the novels of course and therefor non-canon
In The Outrageous Okona, Picard enters the Omega Sagitta system like he owns the place.
That one felt so out of place that I thought it was a dream sequence, the Ghost of Christmases Past coming to visit Kirk and trying to talk him to surrendering...
Basically, in TOS, it seems that humans just plain don't visit Vulcan. Not unless they are serious about marrying one of the locals anyway. I wonder whether the Fleet objection to Kirk not joining the Altair celebrations really was about Altair - or whether the HQ was horrified about the prospect of a human starship going anywhere near Vulcan!
Timo Saloniemi
If you ever get the chance to watch the TOS ep "Journey to Babel", you might want to watch it. This ep partially deals with the matter of membership admission.
By the way, this episode reinforces the idea that Fed members are independent sovereign entities.
This is one of Kirk's captain's log from the ep:
"We have departed Vulcan for the neutral planetoid code-named Babel. Since it is in our sector, the Enterprise has been assigned to transport ambassadors of Federation planets to this vitally important council. The issues of the council are politically complex, the passengers explosive."
Each member planet is represented by an ambassador, which indicates that member planets are independent and sovereign in their own right. What Kirk said also implies that the Federation council is not really a legislature, in the sense of it being a national governing body.
Perhaps a better way of thinking about this, is this: it is not so much that individual nation-states, or planets in this case, are allowed to govern themselves. It is the other way around.
UFP members are absolutely sovereign. The Fed is allowed to have whatever powers the members grant or yield to it. And for the Federation, the powers that it is granted seem to be generally limited to the areas of defense/security and diplomacy. And what is granted, could be taken back by the members.
This is pure assumption on my part, but I don't think Kirk and his rogue officers are a high priority to arrest. So if the Vulcans aren't requesting Starfleet to get them out of there, then why bother sending a ship to get them? They usually only have 1 anyway, and it's getting it's Fragistat installed on Tuesday.
No armed forces can function with multiple chains of commands. They can temporarily be placed under the command of a foreign military commander for joint military operations like NATO exercises, or the Earth, Vulcan Andor Tellarite hunt for the Romulan drone ship. But at the end of the day, each ship reports to their home government as the highest authority. Even though Enterprise was the command ship for the Romulan drone operation, if Shran wants to withdraw his fleet over the death of his wife, all Andorian warships will follow his command, not Captain Archer's. That is because the Andorian Imperial Guard is a totally separate organization from Starfleet or the Vulcan High command.
But the idea that the Vulcan government could order the USS TKumbra, a Starfleet vessel manned by Vulcans, to defy the orders of Starfleet Command, is pretty damn unlikely. Every Starfleet officer takes an oath to defend the security of the entire Federation, not their home planets. Every ship we've ever seen answers to Starfleet Command and only Stafleet Command. I think it's pretty obvious that Starfleet is under the control of the central Federation government
