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Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND

Referring back to Post 531, I still maintain Spock's first name is, "Damn It".

Rather like "Sod-off Baldric" from Blackadder III :lol:

:lol: Yes, indeed! :techman:

This is a little off-topic (and I'm sure the topic's been done to death) but was Cumberbatch's Khan really a villain? I don't know. Was he an antagonist? Absolutely. He caused the destruction of the Kelvin archive, he was responsible for the death of Pike, he tried to destroy Starfleet Headquarters. In all of those cases, he did not act until he was provoked. Was he a terrorist? Yes. I think this is kind of a gray area which makes the character in that film all the more fascinating.

On the other hand, Marcus was just a mustache-twirling villain, showing his power, making Khan design weapons of mass destruction, building a ship in secret to start a war and not letting anyone get in his way. Separately, Khan and Kirk forced his hand.

Marcus was, to put it simply, a warmonger. Khan was just looking after his people.

According to Spock, when he was in power he was committing mass genocide against beings that he deemed to be "inferior." And Khan makes reference to "continuing the work that we were doing before we were banished," which presumably was the same thing.

So yes, he was not a good guy. And Adm. Marcus wasn't really a mustache-twirler. He believed that war with the Klingon's was inevitable (a not unreasonable assumption either) and that it was better to start a war now while the Federation still had the advantage. All of the deaths that he caused were unfortunate but necessary "collateral damage" in his mind. Weller compared Marcus to Gen. Curtis Lemay, and it's a pretty apt comparison (his attitude towards the Klingons is not all that different from Lemay's attitude towards the Soviets/Chinese). He's a fanatic, but it's a fanaticism built out of fears that have a basis in reality.

One of the Big reasons I like being here is the kinds of ideas and opinions you both laid down in these posts. I confess, I never gave Khan much further thought, Villian-wise, and Marcus was just a PowerThug to be taken down. But your Posts made me think and consider further the nature of the two Antagonists. Caused me to give the Characters the respect and acknowledgement they deserve, and not just slot them in my mind with only "surface" traits and motivations. Thank you, both, Campe98 and Khan444, for giving me a chance to further reflect on aspects of this Thing I/We love so much! :techman:
 
The thing is, Khan would be a sympathetic character if he were at all reform-minded. He's not. He's willing to take personal advantage of the chaos Marcus wants to create.

And Khan freely admitted that if he were allowed to run free, he and the rest of his gang would have continued the work they were originally doing - which involved the genocide of anyone who wasn't an Augment like them. You don't get much more evil than that.

Just because Marcus was the reason Khan did what he did in the film, or the fact that Khan cooperated - mostly - with Kirk in taking Marcus down, does not make Khan any less evil.

Khan never admits to genocide in STID - he says 'work', Spock says 'genocide', Khan gets impatient and changes the subject.

In Space Seed, that goal was the vague and 'has-the-potential-to-snowball-into-something-terrible' 'bringing the world order', and he alludes to that during the cell scene is STID with a less ominous choice of words. A goal that could lead to genocide, but was mostly used to show he had tyrannical designs.

I'd say they did that on purpose in case they wanted to bring Khan back in a less villainous role, they have an easy 'out' to say Spock was wrong. Considering Orci's a Trekkie who evidently did listen to some Trekkie complaints based on what's in th movie, it also gives him an easy avoid for the 'but Space Seed said...' complaints.

'Genocide' doesn't necassarily involve the augments going around slaughtering anyone who's not like them. If Khan was enforcing a Eugenics program whilst he was in charge, even in a non-violent way (for eg. Whacking whoever broke the rules with huge fines), then we'd say he was committing genocide.

The comic Orci was involved in also suggests he got that reputation thanks to the motivations of other Augments and his own callousness to collateral damage during conflict, rather than any actual genocial goals (for eg. Nuking Washington and Moscow to stop the Cold War and seize power.)

Which is still horrible and requires a bit more suffering than what happened in STID to redeem him, but it does better fit with what was described in Space Seed ('We wanted to bring order' 'Peace and prosperity, but at the cost of personal freedoms').

Though I'd still put Marcus as the 'big bad' of the film, simply because his actions ultimately drove everything. He was the one attempting genocide on screen, he can't claim to be manipulated like Dougherty in INS, nor is there any evidence in the movie that his paranoia about the Klingons has any legitimate basis.
 
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The thing is, Khan would be a sympathetic character if he were at all reform-minded. He's not. He's willing to take personal advantage of the chaos Marcus wants to create.

And Khan freely admitted that if he were allowed to run free, he and the rest of his gang would have continued the work they were originally doing - which involved the genocide of anyone who wasn't an Augment like them. You don't get much more evil than that.

Just because Marcus was the reason Khan did what he did in the film, or the fact that Khan cooperated - mostly - with Kirk in taking Marcus down, does not make Khan any less evil.

Khan never admits to genocide in STID - he says 'work', Spock says 'genocide', Khan gets impatient and changes the subject. I'd say they did that on purpose in case they wanted to bring Khan back.
Entirely possible, but the thing about Khan changing the subject when confronted about his doings also mirrors Montalkhan's behavior in "Space Seed," when Kirk is pressing for information and Khan ducks the question by abruptly "growing fatigued".
 
That's great news, but this? Really?
Idris Elba was a Trekkie growing up. The term means an avid Star Trek fan...


I mean, sure looks like a nicer 'maternity ward' than the STV's fucking dirty cave. Assuming the STV scene was meant to be a projection of the 'real' event, and not Spocks daddy-issues tainted imagining. I'd lean towards the latter. Even Sarek wouldn't be stupid enough to react that way whilst standing right there in front of a no-doubt tired and touchy Amanda.
We don't know the cave was dirty. It might have been very nice! I imagined there was some Vulcan ceremonial aspect to the location, with the cave having some primal or sacred significance (perhaps related to Plato's allegory of the cave?).
Amanda probably didn't hear what Sarek said, as he was quiet and standing a little distance away from her.
 
And Khan freely admitted that if he were allowed to run free, he and the rest of his gang would have continued the work they were originally doing - which involved the genocide of anyone who wasn't an Augment like them. You don't get much more evil than that.

Just because Marcus was the reason Khan did what he did in the film, or the fact that Khan cooperated - mostly - with Kirk in taking Marcus down, does not make Khan any less evil.

Khan never admits to genocide in STID - he says 'work', Spock says 'genocide', Khan gets impatient and changes the subject. I'd say they did that on purpose in case they wanted to bring Khan back.
Entirely possible, but the thing about Khan changing the subject when confronted about his doings also mirrors Montalkhan's behavior in "Space Seed," when Kirk is pressing for information and Khan ducks the question by abruptly "growing fatigued".

True, though it was Montalkhan himself that blurted out his true motivations in Space Seed. They got it out of him the old fashioned way - booze him up, schmooze for a bit, then start the nagging.

You'd think a guy from the 90's would appreciate that.
 
The name of the film always makes me think of this:

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-uyWAe0NhQ[/yt]

One Step Beyond was also the name of a club I went to in the 80s.
 
Happy Idris Elba is comfirmed!!! Very charismatic actor.
Here's hoping that he's a plot twist villain, one of those characters who might end up on the ally side. It would be fun if you are lead to think he is evil the whole movie and then they reveal that the real villain is Boutella's character (a female villain would be great for a change!)
In stid I thought the actual villain was Marcus not really british Khan.

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Speaking about Spock's birth scene someone mentioned here, you know I never thought the scene from stv was real. I think Sybok was projecting Spock's insecurities about his father thinking he was too human.
This is another thing the reboot fixed. The relationship between Spock and Sarek was a bit messy. I think the birth scene from the deleted bit from the first movie probably is more like it really happened. In the script there is a bit of banter between Sarek and Amanda because she's disappointed he wasn't there (vulcan custom) and the scene makes it obvious that Sarek loves both his wife and son. When he says 'he has your eyes' he's proud that his son has something from his mother too and looks like the woman he loves. Later little Spock is teased about his 'human eyes" by the bullies and he'd probably take it not well if he heard his father tell him he has his mother eyes because he'd project his insecurities and assume his father meant it in a negative way.
In reality, while I get Spock's insecurities, it never made sense to me that Sarek would dislike the humans or resent Spock's human side. He loves a human (married humans twice lol) and he's an ambassador probably he was more accostumed with humans than Spock thought.
It's unfortunate they had to delete Spock's birth for pacing issues so now it's not canon. I still like the scene though.

I wonder what Sarek would think about Spock and Uhura. I'm sure that at this point he knows and Spock introduced her to him. Someone here said that it would be painful for him to watch them because they'd remind him of Amanda..maybe, but I don't think that would make him avoid them. For some reason, I can actually imagine him being quite fond of her and making her a ton of questions about her studies and job (which would be his way to show interest though from a human's pov his flat tone would seem like he's 'attacking' her a bit) and Spock would comically find himself being a bit like the third wheel lol, that would be another moment where his father surprises him.
 
Is it known yet whether this is an official poster?

probably fan made
startrekbeyond.jpg

I'm 99% sure it isn't. I can tell from the aliasing of the pixels around the arrowhead.
 
IIRC there is a line in WNMHGB said by the vision of Picard's mother/grandmother(?) about them being, (paraphrased) '...out here, beyond the ends of the universe...'.
 
Why would he be playing Daystrom?

Yeah, doesn't make much sense if the movie takes place out on the frontier. Maybe he's playing a cult leader, the new Sybok!

OMG! They're remaking The Final Frontier! :rofl:
 
I am getting flashes of the JJprise racing through hyperspace with a musical accompaniment of Row Row Row Your Boat.

:D

If they must remake something, surely it's better to remake something that didn't work than something that did? It's a chance to do it right this time.

(Though obviously they aren't remaking TFF.)
 
I am getting flashes of the JJprise racing through hyperspace with a musical accompaniment of Row Row Row Your Boat.

:D

If they must remake something, surely it's better to remake something that didn't work than something that did? It's a chance to do it right this time.

(Though obviously they aren't remaking TFF.)
Sofia Boutella as Cathlin Dar
Idris Elba as Captain Klaa
Ronda Rousy as Vixis
Colin Firth as John Talbot
Robbie Coltrane as General Korrd
Bryan Cranston as God
Tom Cruise as Sybok
 
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