Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND

[SpocksOddSocks]

Yes, I think they made a mistake by treating this as an alternate timeline where the basic characters and fundamentals of the world were the same, because that means perpetuating unfortunate things from the original, like a core cast with only one woman, the miniskirt uniforms, etc. If they'd done a full reboot, they could've gender-swapped a couple of characters, made the cast more diverse, etc.

Actually, I think a female Kirk and McCoy could be great. To seem some degree, I would have preferred a reboot, but in another.... it would feel even more like the prime universe had been abandoned than it does now.

As for the miniskirts...I like to think that the same uniform variants were available as in the early TNG -we just don't get to see any men who've chosen the dress or any women who have chosen the trousers.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Basically, Archer and T'Pol were a lot like Kirk with a female Spock, and Janeway/Tuvok was the other way around.

 

[Dales]

And from the vibes I get from Pegg, I wonder if Uhura's role will also be severely scaled back to make it all about the boys. He's too biased about the guys and him admitting he doesn't know how to write 'for women' gives me 'guilty conscience' vibes as if he already knows people won't like the way the female characters are written in his movie.
I guess I have to wait and see.

I suspect he will be trying hard to address his weakness in this respect. At least I hope he writes her better then Orci and Kurtzman. I wasn't keen on her character in either of the first two. Particularly ITD - it felt like she was being written primarily as Spock's girlfriend rather than the strong independent woman that I feel Uhura should be.

strong independent woman that I feel Uhura should be.

Please no, not the strong independent woman thing. for me there is no such thing as a strong independent woman because every woman has and will have a male presence in her life she relies on to an extent, a lover, a father, a brother, a friend, a hubby, a relative. you name it.

I feel that nature created a man and a woman to be compatible with each other, I am not saying all men and woman must have relationship since romance is not for all but I also know that we wont be here to today if a man and woman did not get together at some point. the whole strong independent thing is something i am not a fan off because for me it has done more harm to society than actually helped it.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think "independent" means "devoid of personal connections." It just means "not dependent" -- able to function as an autonomous adult, to be the master of one's own fate. Adults do have relationships, but ideally, each participant has equal autonomy. One is not dependent upon the other the way a child is dependent upon a parent.

In a fictional context, "independent" can be taken to refer to characters who have their own stories rather than existing merely to support another character's story.

 

[Malaika]

Because Uhura, McCoy and the others are NOT the protagonists (Kirk and Spock are) it's completely, well, logical that narrative-vise you will see more of these secondary characters ONLY if they have some sort of bond or personal connection with the protagonists.
It actually was like that in tos too for Spock and Bones but people ignore that and the fact that reboot Uhura is no more reduced to Spock's girlfriend than McCoy is reduced to being just Kirk's best friend (they should actually have a scene together where they commiserate about K/S driving them insane). I ask myself why people don't have a problem with that, yet they need Uhura to 'prove' that she's more than a love interest even though, well, she is more than that already. She has a much active role in the story than McCoy and shows and uses her skills as an officer more.
It seems that secondary female characters always have to prove their worth more than secondary male characters. Why? Sexism is an issue, yes, but the audience holding women to (an unreasonable) double standard compared to the male characters just because they assume all the writers are sexist is the problem too. When you compare Uhura to the other secondary characters she's much more developed than them, so any issue about the lack of character development seems to be more generic for all the characters who are not Kirk or Spock, than something exclusive to the female character just because she's a girl.
Besides, Kirk and Spock (and the male characters in general, including Nero!) are more defined by their relationships than Uhura is by her relationship with Spock.
I think, honestly, you know more about Uhura through her relationship with Spock in the last movies, than you ever did about tos Uhura in 3 seasons and all the tos movies. These people are more than officers and for once they are showing that with her too and she has a personal life and, basically, she is part of the narrative that, before, was an exclusive to Kirk, Spock and McCoy only.

also, define 'strong' because someone who is in a relationship with a vulcan (lol), faces a group of klingons alone just to try to give a change to her crew mates well knowing these guys would torture her and kill her, beams down to stun Khan just to save the man she loves AND her friend and captain whose life relied on her chance to stop Spock before he killed the man whose blood could have saved him -- seems to be a very strong character to me.
Want to go back when she did the fandance and used a dictionary to speak klingon?

And from the vibes I get from Pegg, I wonder if Uhura's role will also be severely scaled back to make it all about the boys. He's too biased about the guys and him admitting he doesn't know how to write 'for women' gives me 'guilty conscience' vibes as if he already knows people won't like the way the female characters are written in his movie.
I guess I have to wait and see.

I suspect he will be trying hard to address his weakness in this respect. At least I hope he writes her better then Orci and Kurtzman. I wasn't keen on her character in either of the first two. Particularly ITD - it felt like she was being written primarily as Spock's girlfriend rather than the strong independent woman that I feel Uhura should be.

I'm starting to utterly despise the whole 'strong independent woman' thing that people bring up every time a female character who is not the protagonist has a relationship.

and IDK if some people are even aware of that but this argument had always been used with women of color to deny them, basically, some lovin' in a world where mainstream interracial/poc couples still make some people uncomfortable.
(it's used for queer women too for similar reasons)
Truthfully, Uhura was a 'strong independent woman who doesn't need no man' in tos because of racism (and sexism) not because the writers were being feminist.
Having her in a relationship with Spock in the reboot is, essentially, a sign that, perhaps, in our time we can handle Uhura being portrayed in a mutual loving relationship with one of the leads without anyone having a nervous breakdown because she wasn't, well, forced to kiss him by some crazy mofo messing up with both of them (cue the Kirk/Uhura 'groundbreaking' kiss). In other words, her being a love interest is progressive. Hello 2009-2015, bye bye 1960.

Tl dr: that's intersectionality man. When judging a female character that is part of an underrepresented minority (woc, queer women, transgender women etc etc) it cannot be ignored that what you might consider as a 'cliché' for a cis white female character could be the opposite thing for other characters (this essay about Uhura explains this issue and the different perspective very well)

 

[Malaika]

I don't think "independent" means "devoid of personal connections." It just means "not dependent" -- able to function as an autonomous adult, to be the master of one's own fate.

ironically, some want Kirk and Spock to have a co-dependent relationship with each other as if they can't work as people without the other. And in some way, sometimes writers themselves exaggerate a bit with this trope (see Spock Prime telling young Spock who barely tolerated Kirk that his friendship with him would define him)
If anything, what I liked in the first movie was precisely the fact that the story made it a point, in a way, that Spock's life didn't start on the enterprise and it's not like he had nothing worth to live before finding his future friend Kirk. He already was this great character on his own merit and he has a life beyond that friendship.

with Uhura, while her relationship with Spock is front and center she is never really defined by it. When she argues for her getting assigned to the enterprise she doesn't give a damn about her boyfriend being on the ship, she only argues for her getting what she has earned. Spock might as well be on the farragut himself then later in the end she doesn't wait for Spock to come back to the ship before she retakes her place on the ship herself. I think had Spock decided to stay with the vulcans, he wouldn't ask her to give up her career for him and she wouldn't do that either but perhaps they'd be able to have a long distance relationship. Perhaps that was an occurrence they always contemplated anyway since they are officers and knew that it wasn't guaranteed they'd always be on the same ship. What can seem as very difficult for us might not be for the context of the fictional reality where they live.
Also, she has a little dynamic with Kirk too where they had became friends between the first two movies. She's the only character beside Kirk and Spock who has more than a relationship on the ship and the only one besides Spock who has both a romance and a platonic friendship.

 

[Dales]

I don't think "independent" means "devoid of personal connections." It just means "not dependent" -- able to function as an autonomous adult, to be the master of one's own fate. Adults do have relationships, but ideally, each participant has equal autonomy. One is not dependent upon the other the way a child is dependent upon a parent.

In a fictional context, "independent" can be taken to refer to characters who have their own stories rather than existing merely to support another character's story.

Exactly I feel the same way, I do think each of us is a single entity even though we need the love and support of others but the question now is can we say uhura is not a single self, entity and autonomous adult or do you think she is totally dependant on spock like we see in the twilight films were bella is totally dependent on edward.

what's your take?

 

[Christopher]

Because Uhura, McCoy and the others are NOT the protagonists (Kirk and Spock are) it's completely, well, logical that narrative-vise you will see more of these secondary characters ONLY if they have some sort of bond or personal connection with the protagonists.

Well, strictly speaking, in most stories, the hero/main character is not the protagonist. Dave Mack had a good post about this a while back. "Protagonist" actually means the character who initiates the events of the narrative by pursuing a goal, and "antagonist" means the character trying to interfere with that goal. The main character of a film isn't always the protagonist; indeed, in most traditional action narratives, the villain is the protagonist, the one whose pursuit of a goal drives the plot, and the hero is the antagonist trying to stop them. And the main character isn't necessarily the hero either. For instance, in Dave's example, Mad Max: Fury Road, Max is the main character, but Furiosa is both the hero and the protagonist. Indeed, in most of the Mad Max films, Max is not the one driving the narrative, even though he's the main character. Then there's a case like TRON, where Kevin Flynn is the main character but Tron is the hero. Or Big Trouble in Little China, where the main character, Jack Burton, thinks he's the hero but is actually the sidekick.

So it's certainly possible for a story to be driven by a supporting character rather than a main character. Indeed, that pretty much describes most TOS episodes, because of the way '60s TV was structured. We've never really seen a Trek movie that was driven by a member of the main cast other than the three leads; either it's driven by one of the leads or by a guest star. But it's at least possible.

It actually was like that in tos too for Spock and Bones but people ignore that and the fact that reboot Uhura is no more reduced to Spock's girlfriend than McCoy is reduced to being just Kirk's best friend (they should actually have a scene together where they commiserate about K/S driving them insane). I ask myself why people don't have a problem with that, yet they need Uhura to 'prove' that she's more than a love interest even though, well, she is more than that already. She has a much active role in the story than McCoy and shows and uses her skills as an officer more.

I've heard that argument before, and I tend to agree. Spock and Uhura are written as partners -- and Uhura is also a gadfly for Kirk, at least in the first movie. She's basically taken McCoy's place in the core dynamic, with McCoy being reduced to making acerbic remarks and doing medicine, pretty much.

It seems that secondary female characters always have to prove their worth more than secondary male characters. Why? Sexism is an issue, yes, but the audience holding women to (an unreasonable) double standard compared to the male characters just because they assume all the writers are sexist is the problem too.

Well, part of the answer to that is the same as the answer to the question of why casting a minority actor as a white character is okay when casting a white actor as a minority character is not: Because it's not balanced. There's a lot of ingrained bias in one direction, so doing the former counteracts the imbalance but doing the latter increases the imbalance.

By the same token, the vast majority of female roles in movies fall into stereotyped or limiting patterns, so a role that seems to reinforce those patterns is a cause for concern even if it isn't intended to. The context in which individual stories exist has an influence on how they're perceived. It isn't fair to the story in every case, because they are individual and should be judged on their own merits; but at the same time, it's important to be aware of that context.

The problem is, most people try to pick one side rather than considering all sides. I can recognize the positives in Uhura's portrayal in the films while still understanding the concerns that others have about it. I think her portrayal actually works pretty well, for the reasons you cite, but that doesn't mean people are wrong to raise the question, or that there isn't room for improvement. For instance, it would probably be easier for people to appreciate the positives in the portrayals of Uhura and Carol if the filmmakers hadn't inserted scenes of Kirk looking at them both in their underwear. They're brief moments (no pun intended), but they tend to overshadow the rest.

I think, honestly, you know more about Uhura through her relationship with Spock in the last movies, than you ever did about tos Uhura in 3 seasons and all the tos movies.

Absolutely. Like... her first name.

These people are more than officers and for once they are showing that with her too and she has a personal life and, basically, she is part of the narrative that, before, was an exclusive to Kirk, Spock and McCoy only.

Well, she and the others did have more to do in the early first season, when it was more of an ensemble show and less focused on the core threesome. See "The Man Trap," "Charlie X," and "The Conscience of the King," for instance. (Indeed, just looking at Uhura's scenes with Spock in the first two of those is enough to explain exactly where the idea of a Spock-Uhura romance came from.)

 

[Michael]

strong independent woman that I feel Uhura should be.

Please no, not the strong independent woman thing. for me there is no such thing as a strong independent woman because every woman has and will have a male presence in her life she relies on to an extent, a lover, a father, a brother, a friend, a hubby, a relative. you name it.

I feel that nature created a man and a woman to be compatible with each other, I am not saying all men and woman must have relationship since romance is not for all but I also know that we wont be here to today if a man and woman did not get together at some point. the whole strong independent thing is something i am not a fan off because for me it has done more harm to society than actually helped it.

That's the most fucked up thing I read all week.

 

[Trekkin]

I don't mind the Unura/Spock pairing, and I defended it in 09. But in STID, it did feel like most of her scenes revolved around worrying about Spock. Which are fine scenes to have, but it would be nice if there was also a few more 'stabbing Klingons in the balls' scenes to balance it out.

And I really dislike the idea that the way for a female character to be strong is to fight and hurt people. Violence isn't strength. It's sexist in itself to insist that the only way women can be "strong" and "equal" is to conform to stereotypical male behaviors. If we really valued equality, we'd celebrate men being nurturers and caregivers as much as we celebrate women being fighters -- and vice-versa. As I said, I think that Uhura talking Spock down from violence in the climax was a greater expression of strength than Uhura fighting with Klingons was.

Wow, I expressed that badly.

I didn't mean turn Uhura into Buffy, or anything like that. What I meant was that I would have liked more scenes like the Klingon one. Not necassarily just the 'stabbing' part, but including the build up where she was just negotiating with them. Hell, throw in the deleted scene where she seemed to actually succeed in convincing the Klingons to listen to her, and it ended up being Kirk that fucked it all up. I liked that she actually contributed something important, it was something that wouldn't really have worked for any other character, and it was something fairly new for her in either iteration.

Can I rephrase to 'more like Star Trek VI where she gets them past Klingon sentries, but without playing her ability (or lack of) for a quick laugh?' Just give her lots of different types of things to do, is all I'm saying.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't mind the Unura/Spock pairing, and I defended it in 09. But in STID, it did feel like most of her scenes revolved around worrying about Spock. Which are fine scenes to have, but it would be nice if there was also a few more 'stabbing Klingons in the balls' scenes to balance it out.

And I really dislike the idea that the way for a female character to be strong is to fight and hurt people. Violence isn't strength. It's sexist in itself to insist that the only way women can be "strong" and "equal" is to conform to stereotypical male behaviors. If we really valued equality, we'd celebrate men being nurturers and caregivers as much as we celebrate women being fighters -- and vice-versa. As I said, I think that Uhura talking Spock down from violence in the climax was a greater expression of strength than Uhura fighting with Klingons was.

Wow, I expressed that badly.

I didn't mean turn Uhura into Buffy, or anything like that. What I meant was that I would have like more scenes like the Klingon one. Not necassarily just the 'stabbing' part, but including the build up where she was negotiating with them . Hell, throw in the deleted scene where she seemed to actually succeed in convincing the Klingons to listen to her, and it ended up being Kirk that fucked it all up.

Can I rephrase to 'more like Star Trek VI where she gets them past Klingon sentries, but without playing her ability (or lack of) for a quick laugh?' Just give her lots of different types of things to do, is all I'm saying.

I think I follow you.



I just found an article about women in Star Trek and one of the aspects that Nichols liked about Uhura was that she was a professional woman. Regardless of her role, she knew her job:

“among other things, a no- nonsense professional. Not cute, not coy, not mere
female decoration. She meant business.”

I think this describes Uhura, especially in the scene with the Klingons in ID, perfectly.

 

[Hythlodeus]

probably fan made

 

[Christopher]

Can I rephrase to 'more like Star Trek VI where she gets them past Klingon sentries, but without playing her ability (or lack of) for a quick laugh?' Just give her lots of different types of things to do, is all I'm saying.

Ah, okay. I get it now. And I agree.

 

[F. King Daniel]

probably fan made

What does that say underneath? I can't make it out

 

[F. King Daniel]

Looks like Dubai will stand in for a "vertical alien city" the crew come across during their five-year mission. Click!

 

[Jedi_Master]

Looks like Dubai will stand in for a "vertical alien city" the crew come across during their five-year mission. Click!

New species! New planets! New civilizations! Come on folks - this is freakin' awesome!!!!!!

 

[YellowSubmarine]

a "vertical alien city" the crew come across during their five-year mission

I believe my positronic brain has suffered an explosion. My mental pathways were inadequate to process this new information and caught fire.

 

[Christopher]

Will Kirk climb the outside of the Burj Khalifa using special gloves that Scotty made for him?

 

[Jedi_Master]

Will Kirk climb the outside of the Burj Khalifa using special gloves that Scotty made for him?

No, he will crash a shuttle through three buildings before leaping out of it just in time and then watching it fall to the distant surface.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Looks like Dubai will stand in for a "vertical alien city" the crew come across during their five-year mission. Click!

Awesome! I've been hoping to see Nar Shaddaa in canon!