Hard Star Trek

[Tim Walker]

As for magic sensors, one thing Trek did right was the detection of ships in warp. Otherwise, FTL drives permit sneak attacks...because the ships out race their own images.

Poul Anderson turned this into a form of FTL communication. A protagonist jury rigged his FTL drive to stutter...and thereby send a code.

 

[Autistoid]

What sort of FTL communication would further a good, character centric story?

If there is none, you get a space opera like Jerry Pournelle's. Messages are carried by couriers, which may result in haphazard communication.


.

Which is again another case of when realism just makes more consistent and better writing.

 

[Tim Walker]

What sort of FTL communication would further a good, character centric story?

If there is none, you get a space opera like Jerry Pournelle's. Messages are carried by couriers, which may result in haphazard communication.


.

Which is again another case of when realism just makes more consistent and better writing.

It occurs to me that you could get a situation resembling ancient history. The Roman Empire, for example, with messengers on horse back, or aboard ships.

Communications would be slow. A dictatorship might be viable. Alternatively, there might be a federal system, with the provinces having much autonomy.

It would be difficult to micro-manage commanders in the field.

BTW, Poul Anderson's technique was short range, relative to galactic distances. It might be compared to a spider web, with a spider feeling vibrations in the web (from struggling insects).

 

[Tim Walker]

Regarding the transporter, are there any good stories left to be told intrinsic to this technology?

 

[Autistoid]

FYI this is my ten minute design of the enterprise.

Notice that the nacel's now rotate about "engineering" they are now where people on the ship actually live, with the saucer functioning as a giant cosmic dust shield.

To be clear the shodow effect is to illustrate how it may be viewed from another angle, because in space there is no true set reference point.

 

[Autistoid]

What sort of FTL communication would further a good, character centric story?

If there is none, you get a space opera like Jerry Pournelle's. Messages are carried by couriers, which may result in haphazard communication.


.

Which is again another case of when realism just makes more consistent and better writing.

It occurs to me that you could get a situation resembling ancient history. The Roman Empire, for example, with messengers on horse back, or aboard ships.

Communications would be slow. A dictatorship might be viable. Alternatively, there might be a federal system, with the provinces having much autonomy.

It would be difficult to micro-manage commanders in the field.

BTW, Poul Anderson's technique was short range, relative to galactic distances. It might be compared to a spider web, with a spider feeling vibrations in the web (from struggling insects).

I think in the general theme of the show it'd make little difference with the exception of occasional stopovers to relay stations.

Voyager did well because of it, in fact it's probably one of the shows most redeeming factors.

Its almost infuriating why subspace was ever a needed part of the show.

The whole idea of a captain, making hard decisions makes little to no sense if he can be in constant contact with the admirals.


The only science benders that appear to be true facts of trek are FTLs and humanoid aliens.

I'd argue even those two plot points are extremely overstated.

There are multiple ways to make aliens directly related to humans either with some nonhumanoid alien intervention, or with genetic engineering.

Firefly proved quite well there is no need for FTL.

 

[fireproof78]

FYI this is my ten minute design of the enterprise.

Notice that the nacel's now rotate about "engineering" they are now where people on the ship actually live, with the saucer functioning as a giant cosmic dust shield.

To be clear the shodow effect is to illustrate how it may be viewed from another angle, because in space there is no true set reference point.

Well, the reference point would be from the people inside it and the people outside of it.

This is one of the fun aspects that I love about scifi writing, especially Heinlein's works. He would often describe being inside a space ship as moving both outward and down, the terms being relative to the person engaged in the maneuver.

Also, for simplicity sakes, having a point of reference, even in space, is important.

As for FLT and humanoid aliens, I think those are acceptable science benders. Firefly did a good job of avoiding technobable of FTL, but it had its main ship traveling to different worlds, without too much of a problem.

Kirk made tough decisions all the time (including the possibility of the war with Klingons) and was still in contact with Admiralty on a fairly regular basis, so I see that is kind of a wash, or not really a major problem.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Kirk made tough decisions all the time (including the possibility of the war with Klingons) and was still in contact with Admiralty on a fairly regular basis, so I see that is kind of a wash, or not really a major problem.

A lot of the time it was like this, though, with Kirk out on the frontier making the tough calls. From "Return To Tomorrow":

KIRK: (dictating log) Since exploration and contact with alien intelligences is our primary mission, I've decided to risk the potential dangers and resume contact. Log entry out. How long before Starfleet receives that?
UHURA: Over three weeks at this distance, sir.

 

[Tim Walker]

Thread on reboots/re-imagining defined, www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=146941

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk made tough decisions all the time (including the possibility of the war with Klingons) and was still in contact with Admiralty on a fairly regular basis, so I see that is kind of a wash, or not really a major problem.

A lot of the time it was like this, though, with Kirk out on the frontier making the tough calls. From "Return To Tomorrow":

KIRK: (dictating log) Since exploration and contact with alien intelligences is our primary mission, I've decided to risk the potential dangers and resume contact. Log entry out. How long before Starfleet receives that?
UHURA: Over three weeks at this distance, sir.

Thank you! I could not remember if they ever articulated how long it would take to put them in contact with the Fleet

I could remember several episodes were Kirk discusses with Admiral Komack, Fitzpatrick and one other (I think) so there was definitely contact, even if not regular.

As has been mentioned ad naseum in other threads, TOS really had a sense of a captain being from the Age of Sail, where they had great latitude to make decisions that could affect whole countries.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

To be honest I don't see how any of the proposed changes to make Star Trek Hard Sci-fi in this thread don't turn it into Star Trek in name only.

I mean after taking away the ship design, the alien species, warp drive, and ect. how do you not end up with just a generic sci-fi series?

 

[fireproof78]

To be honest I don't see how any of the proposed changes to make Star Trek Hard Sci-fi in this thread don't turn it into Star Trek in name only.

I mean after taking away the ship design, the alien species, warp drive, and ect. how do you not end up with just a generic sci-fi series?

I tend to lean that way, personally, but reading over some of the ideas here, some of GR's original ideas, as well as Future War Stories discussion of levels of scifi, I could see it working if done in the vein that GR originally conceived Trek.

I was reading Shatner's "Star Trek Memories" especially the part of GR's original pitch in being on the frontier. Firefly delved in to this with the concept of terraformed worlds, and I think Trek could do human colonies, and exploring the different ones humanity has spread out in to cosmos.

But, I think removing some of the technological aspects makes in Trek in name only, and requires a delicate balance of the original underlying theme, and new perspectives on such topics.

 

[Tim Walker]

I don't mind the notion of getting rid of (any additional) bump-headed aliens. Then again, if it were up to me, the Greys would be present in some fashion, either as a member, or a mysterious adversary with their own agenda. Actually, I'm thinking more like a dynamism similar to the Vulcans/Romulans.

And no, we are not getting rid of warp drive, or shields, or directed energy weapons.

It has been commented that humanoids are basic to Trek. Greys would certainly be an intriguing variation on this theme. It would take Trek in a new direction.

I'm not an expert on UFO lore, but aren't the Greys supposed to be enigmatic, with an unknown agenda?

 

[Orphalesion]

There are multiple ways to make aliens directly related to humans either with some nonhumanoid alien intervention, or with genetic engineering.

Firefly proved quite well there is no need for FTL.

I have thought that often in regard to the Betazoids, if they refused to give Deanna any sort of alien appearance (there are people with solid black eyes, it's a rare condition affecting the iris) they should have just made her an augmented offshoot of humanity. The whole culture of Betazed (what little we saw of it) was depressingly human.

The Nitzscheans on Andromeda were basically augmented human Klingons.

Firefly was a special case in that they had that engineered system with multiple, inhabited planets in "walking distance" IRRC.

It has been commented that humanoids are basic to Trek. Greys would certainly be an intriguing variation on this theme. It would take Trek in a new direction.

I'm not an expert on UFO lore, but aren't the Greys supposed to be enigmatic, with an unknown agenda?

If we include aliens form UFO lore, then I also want some sexy, Tolkien Elf inspired Nordics, sneaky, subterranean Reptilians and something spooky modeled after the Mothman or the Flatwoods Monster.

What I know about UFO mythology the Greys are impassive scientists but it all seems to have been muddled since the whole thing started with Rosswell.
I think the word right now is that the Greys are operating some structure on the moon that catches human souls and forces them to reincarnate.....presumably for shits and giggles.

 

[JES]

There are multiple ways to make aliens directly related to humans either with some nonhumanoid alien intervention, or with genetic engineering.

Firefly proved quite well there is no need for FTL.

I have thought that often in regard to the Betazoids, if they refused to give Deanna any sort of alien appearance (there are people with solid black eyes, it's a rare condition affecting the iris) they should have just made her an augmented offshoot of humanity. The whole culture of Betazed (what little we saw of it) was depressingly human.

The Nitzscheans on Andromeda were basically augmented human Klingons.

Firefly was a special case in that they had that engineered system with multiple, inhabited planets in "walking distance" IRRC.

It has been commented that humanoids are basic to Trek. Greys would certainly be an intriguing variation on this theme. It would take Trek in a new direction.

I'm not an expert on UFO lore, but aren't the Greys supposed to be enigmatic, with an unknown agenda?

If we include aliens form UFO lore, then I also want some sexy, Tolkien Elf inspired Nordics, sneaky, subterranean Reptilians and something spooky modeled after the Mothman or the Flatwoods Monster.

What I know about UFO mythology the Greys are impassive scientists but it all seems to have been muddled since the whole thing started with Rosswell.
I think the word right now is that the Greys are operating some structure on the moon that catches human souls and forces them to reincarnate.....presumably for shits and giggles.

I can agree with that!

Some of the episodes can explore speculation what the Nordics, Pleiadians, Reptilians, and a few other reported species have been up to in the past few centuries.

I kind of like the idea of our Pleiadian cousins taking up a role similar to the Vulcans, and guiding humanity early on as they reach towards the stars. We can even have the two start out if not allies, at least trading with one another.

That DS9 episode where Quark was responsible for the Roswell Incident was a slap in the face for UFO mythology (not that I ever saw it), and I'd be all too happy to have that retconned out.

 

[fireproof78]

There are multiple ways to make aliens directly related to humans either with some nonhumanoid alien intervention, or with genetic engineering.

Firefly proved quite well there is no need for FTL.

I have thought that often in regard to the Betazoids, if they refused to give Deanna any sort of alien appearance (there are people with solid black eyes, it's a rare condition affecting the iris) they should have just made her an augmented offshoot of humanity. The whole culture of Betazed (what little we saw of it) was depressingly human.

The Nitzscheans on Andromeda were basically augmented human Klingons.

Firefly was a special case in that they had that engineered system with multiple, inhabited planets in "walking distance" IRRC.

Firefly never explained their locomotion. There were the Core worlds of the Alliance, with more of the frontier worlds that the crew of the Serenity tend to stay towards, that are terraformed but still a bit untamed and wild.

Even though FTL is not mentioned explicitly, they still get around from planet to planet, and communicate between planets, fairly easily

It has been commented that humanoids are basic to Trek. Greys would certainly be an intriguing variation on this theme. It would take Trek in a new direction.

I'm not an expert on UFO lore, but aren't the Greys supposed to be enigmatic, with an unknown agenda?

If we include aliens form UFO lore, then I also want some sexy, Tolkien Elf inspired Nordics, sneaky, subterranean Reptilians and something spooky modeled after the Mothman or the Flatwoods Monster.

What I know about UFO mythology the Greys are impassive scientists but it all seems to have been muddled since the whole thing started with Rosswell.
I think the word right now is that the Greys are operating some structure on the moon that catches human souls and forces them to reincarnate.....presumably for shits and giggles.

I wonder if it is too soon after Stargate (with the Asgard essentially Greys of UFO lore) to have them in a Star Trek show.

I mean no offense to any UFO lore aficionados, but I think that is something that Trek should leave alone and reforged its own mythology. There is a lot of conflicting stories regarding every race supposedly encountered and I think Trek is better served to work out something on its own.

That said, I think having nonhumanoids, or more races like the Medusans, or modified humans living on extraterrestrial colonies could certainly be an interesting thing to explore.

I mean, that is, in essence, the world of Dune. I don't even recall how far in to the future it is set, but it is essentially evolved humanity due to the spice, melange, and the gigantic Empire that developed because of that change. A whole feudal system grew up around those worlds and changes with no aliens involved.

Just food for thought

 

[Orphalesion]

I wonder if it is too soon after Stargate (with the Asgard essentially Greys of UFO lore) to have them in a Star Trek show.

I mean no offense to any UFO lore aficionados, but I think that is something that Trek should leave alone and reforged its own mythology. There is a lot of conflicting stories regarding every race supposedly encountered and I think Trek is better served to work out something on its own.

That said, I think having nonhumanoids, or more races like the Medusans, or modified humans living on extraterrestrial colonies could certainly be an interesting thing to explore.

I mean, that is, in essence, the world of Dune. I don't even recall how far in to the future it is set, but it is essentially evolved humanity due to the spice, melange, and the gigantic Empire that developed because of that change. A whole feudal system grew up around those worlds and changes with no aliens involved.

Just food for thought

I agree that UFO lore is a bit weird and confusing. i particularly dislike those parts of it that try to shoehorn conspiracy theories or (pseudo-)religion into it.
So I don't think that Star Trek should adapt UFO lore 1:1 (Aliens building a giant dream catcher on the moon isn't exactly hard science fiction) but I think a few nods to it would be cool.

Though even as it stands the Cardassians are already pretty much the UFOlogy version of Reptilians and the Betazoids are
the Nordics/Pleiadians with their telepathy and harmony and open sexuality.

All we are really missing is the Greys and I don't think it's too soon for Star Trek to use them, Stargate was what? 15 years ago?

Dune was (presumably) set in the year 10.000 (but I think they weren't sure because thy had lost many of their historical records) However the only augmented versions of humanity it had early on were the people that replaced computers and the horribly mutated navigators. It was only later on, after a sort of diaspora that they had a bunch of human off-shots that might as well be alien species.
That being said Dune had aliens, just not sentient ones.

What we could adopt from UFO folklore would be the idea of some sort of precursor augmenting strands of humanity and transplanting them to different planets, providing us with the scores of humanoid aliens we all know (Vulcans, Betazoid, Klingons etc.) basically a slightly less far fetched version of the Chase explanation.
And include more non-humanoid species of course There are various attempts on the internet to redesign the classic ST races to be less humanoid. I've seen a very interesting attempt to turn the Trill into a sort of sea slug creature (the hosts, not just the symbionts)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I believe that the Trill could be reimagined as a straight-up human-alien joining.

That would make them uniquely workable, as both perfect theatrically and perfect from a hard(er) sci-fi perspective.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Even though FTL is not mentioned explicitly, they still get around from planet to planet, and communicate between planets, fairly easily

It is a while since I've seen Firefly, but my understanding was that all planets depicted were supposed to be within the same star system. I remember thinking of that as a rather unlikely situation when I did see it.

 

[Orphalesion]

I believe that the Trill could be reimagined as a straight-up human-alien joining.

That would make them uniquely workable, as both perfect theatrically and perfect from a hard(er) sci-fi perspective.

I agree, it would make perfect sense, they could even keep the spots as a sort of "tribal" marking.