Hard Star Trek

[Autistoid]

Well, the reference point would be from the people inside it and the people outside of it.

This is one of the fun aspects that I love about scifi writing, especially Heinlein's works. He would often describe being inside a space ship as moving both outward and down, the terms being relative to the person engaged in the maneuver.

Also, for simplicity sakes, having a point of reference, even in space, is important.

Well for the record I imagine one end of the ship being north and the other end south. With spinward being east.

As east is spinward on earth, I don't think there is any problem applying it to ships. The bigger decision is which way is north or south regardless I think it's an easy thing to figure out.

Up and down are still the same with the centre of the craft being the top and the outer limits of the habitats being the bottom. I can easily imagine some young ensign climbing a ladder to the top screaming I'm on top of the world as he looks down at the a giant rotating colony.

As for FLT and humanoid aliens, I think those are acceptable science benders. Firefly did a good job of avoiding technobable of FTL, but it had its main ship traveling to different worlds, without too much of a problem.

Yeah well if you make all aliens genetically engineered humans that have since rejected their ancient roots(much the same as many europeans would not consider themselves africans it's not so much an issue)

If you simply swapped race in the sense of species instead focus on race in terms of ethnicity.

I.e. all vulcans come from vulcan, vulcan is never shown in teh series with most assuming it means a planet. In reality vulcan could be a dwarf planet(asteriod) where vulcans park there massive rotational colonies(worlds).

Keeping in mind rich biomes of biodiversity would still be required on these large rotational colonies(worlds). It's also allow for more creative designs that don't have to look perfectly natural from a earth perspective.

Honestly the biggest trope in all of Sci fi right now is vitrually every alien landscape, looks like the rural areas of LA-Vancouver.

Kirk made tough decisions all the time (including the possibility of the war with Klingons) and was still in contact with Admiralty on a fairly regular basis, so I see that is kind of a wash, or not really a major problem.

Meh I think it's bs in my opinion.

The federation is a democracy, could you imagine if we had flag officer x making all our decisions in our relations with the north koreans etc.

This is an aspect of voyager that I actually like. A captain should have to wait for backup.

Verdicts from the admiralty can add a great deal of tension to a relatively simple plot.

 

[Orphalesion]

I.e. all vulcans come from vulcan, vulcan is never shown in teh series with most assuming it means a planet. In reality vulcan could be a dwarf planet(asteriod) where vulcans park there massive rotational colonies(worlds).

Why not show it in the series? Chaning Vulcan forma planet to an asteroid with rotational colonies and then never showing or mentioning it would be rather pointless.

Plus rotational colonies would look hella cool.

 

[Autistoid]

I believe that the Trill could be reimagined as a straight-up human-alien joining.

That would make them uniquely workable, as both perfect theatrically and perfect from a hard(er) sci-fi perspective.

I agree, it would make perfect sense, they could even keep the spots as a sort of "tribal" marking.

Agreed, even in trill culture to be joined is an honoured positioned in their society.

 

[Autistoid]

I.e. all vulcans come from vulcan, vulcan is never shown in teh series with most assuming it means a planet. In reality vulcan could be a dwarf planet(asteriod) where vulcans park there massive rotational colonies(worlds).

Why not show it in the series? Chaning Vulcan forma planet to an asteroid with rotational colonies and then never showing or mentioning it would be rather pointless.

Plus rotational colonies would look hella cool.

Well I didn't quite literally mean never, however spending 15 minutes of the first episode a techno-babble explanation would be a disaster.

Use the BSG-Firefly method, which is don't say something outright, but have it evolve over time.

I.e. Make the audience wonder. Introduce rotating colonies as worlds independent of vulcan. Establish that rotating colonies are "strange new worlds", much like what was done in core star trek. But stick to the idea.

It's the best way to draw in a new audience without forcing them into meltdown over deviating from the norm.

I really think very people care that most humanoids aliens are in fact alien. Of course we want unique cultures and societies to be developed with unique appearance and features. But whether or not they are products of evolution is not necessary.

 

[Autistoid]

That said, I think having nonhumanoids, or more races like the Medusans, or modified humans living on extraterrestrial colonies could certainly be an interesting thing to explore.

I mean, that is, in essence, the world of Dune. I don't even recall how far in to the future it is set, but it is essentially evolved humanity due to the spice, melange, and the gigantic Empire that developed because of that change. A whole feudal system grew up around those worlds and changes with no aliens involved.

Just food for thought

Well there is room for a blend of both.

Starfish aliens.

Modified starfish aliens that look like humans.

Modified humans that look like green alien babes.


If one were to do this in a hard sci fi theme, you could simply switch around some aspects of the federation.

Make earth not a founding member of the federation, but a founding member of the local chapter. Earth is still the core of local space, however the federation has existed for 100,000 year plus.

The hitch is people are obsessed with this idea that between stars there is nothing, space is just empty and you must travel to a planet to explore new life.

The reality is resent astronomy has really been focused on the idea that both dwarf planets and by extension rogue planets are more numerous than actual earth-like planets.

The idea that there are 1 million independent "Worlds" standing between us and our nearest star is not at all an exaggeration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKi58i0YD0Y

The reality is if space faring alien life exists FULL STOP, than it exists everywhere. Any alien life that exists in our timeframe, did not learn to read 10,000 years ago the galactic odds of this are like 0.001 percent chance. It's been around for a very long time, and has a great deal of time to span out across the galaxy.

Make the prime directive a galactic rule that vulcans instituted on the galaxy.

Have Zephrane Cochran a great physicists who made first contact when his nuclear propulsion craft left "the solar system" in the year 2062.

in 2264 have earth being the top destination of interstellar space surrounding earth.

So that for the past 200 years aliens from all abroad have been coming towards earth at sublight speeds.

Have kirks 5 year mission be several light-weeks out from earth, just far enough for him to be on his own in a great mission of exploration of the true unknown, yet close enough that earth as a reference point is still relevant.

 

[T'Girl]

Kirk made tough decisions all the time

The federation is a democracy, could you imagine if we had flag officer x making all our decisions in our relations with the north koreans etc.

Part of Star Trek is a depiction of the historical "the age of sail," where a commander would be out of communications for months on end. Kirk's standing orders and Starfleet's rules of engagement could literally allow him to assemble a local fleet, start a war, fight it and sign a binding legal peace treaty ... all before the Federation Council hears about the incident beginning the war.

Verdicts from the admiralty can add a great deal of tension to a relatively simple plot.

Especially if those eventual verdicts are based upon information that's weeks out of date.

 

[Autistoid]

Make vulcans a 9 foot tall insectoid like alien with gigantic ears.

Have romulans be an unfortunate hybrid of human and vulcan dna as a complete offshoot nationality. I.e. rejecting emotional repression.

Make Klingons in there non tos humanoid form contrasted with massive exosketelton boar like aliens.

Make betazoids a fishlike alien.

Introduce silicon based life as a major species.

Make andorrians more centaur like.

Make Orions blimp like, creatures that gravitate to gas giants.

Keep cardassians as reptillians.

Make the borg a galactic pestilence.

Keep the founders as shape shifters.
etc etc etc.

 

[Tim Walker]

I should say that I tend to be an agnostic regarding UFO lore. I can't say whether or not if there is anything to it.

fireproof78 had a good point, not using UFO lore directly, but rather developing an analogous situation. Set in deep space rather than Earth.

Which might give some Trek episodes a sense of mystery. A sort of X-Files vibe.

There was a start with that with the shroomies, "Silent Enemy" episode (ENT). The shroomies were quasi/semi-humanoid, enigmatic, but clearly not benign. The shroomies seemed to have a technological edge over Archer's Enterprise.

In episode "Arena" (TOS), Spock mentioned reports...more like space legends...of strange signals, none of which had been recorded.

As for the UFO lore, I understand that there have been reports of vehicles of many different designs. There have even been reports of strange insignia (Socorro, New Mexico) or writing (Kecksburg, Pennsyvania; Rendlesham Forest in England) on landed craft.

One shape I would not use in Trek is the classic "flying saucer", because of the iconic saucer-and-nacelles designs of Star Fleet.

Using different shaped craft and different insignia, it could be implied that several different civilizations are observing the Federation. It could be implied that their technology is more advanced than the Federation's...as though these civilizations had been around longer.

Another mystery would be canon civilizations (Iconians, T'Kon Empire...) advanced, but now vanished. They were implied to have super-science technology, beyond Federation technology. Conceivably, their artifacts could have incredible powers. (Sort of a Warehouse 13 vibe) It also occurred to me that these could have been civilizations of non-humanoid aliens...imagine an archeologist finding an image of such a being.

 

[fireproof78]

Even though FTL is not mentioned explicitly, they still get around from planet to planet, and communicate between planets, fairly easily

It is a while since I've seen Firefly, but my understanding was that all planets depicted were supposed to be within the same star system. I remember thinking of that as a rather unlikely situation when I did see it.

I didn't realize the concept that the 'verse was one solar system like idea, with multiple stars that allow for less than FTL travel and still get from world to world.

I did brief reading on the Firefly universe map, and the concepts that were established, and later ones designed for the RPG. Quite frankly, it felt like a lot of bending over backwards to avoid FTL but I could see some merit to the idea.

Kirk made tough decisions all the time (including the possibility of the war with Klingons) and was still in contact with Admiralty on a fairly regular basis, so I see that is kind of a wash, or not really a major problem.

Meh I think it's bs in my opinion.

The federation is a democracy, could you imagine if we had flag officer x making all our decisions in our relations with the north koreans etc.

This is an aspect of voyager that I actually like. A captain should have to wait for backup.

Verdicts from the admiralty can add a great deal of tension to a relatively simple plot.

The analogy is not the same. As T'Girl pointed out (and has been referenced before) TOS operated around the "Age of Sail" idea of a ship's captain, who was provided a great amount of latitude and had to report in the leadership, and defends his reasons that his decisions were in the best interest of the Federation.

The idea of the frontier is that military leaders cannot wait for back up. They have to act in the best interest of the Federation without the possibility of support. Decisions sometimes carry more weight because there is not a higher authority to provide the moral clarity.

As for aliens, there is always room for variation, I agree. Beyond that, the details of them can always be sorted out later. I just get leery of putting so many aliens out there and then not see them again. It can make the universe seem both large and too small all at the same time.

Your list of different aliens is a good starting point, and can be worked out. I just would not revisit the Borg, as they are too overdone as a villain.

 

[Tim Walker]

Mention of Dune brings up a TV Tropes topic, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AbsentAliens

 

[Autistoid]

As for aliens, there is always room for variation, I agree. Beyond that, the details of them can always be sorted out later. I just get leery of putting so many aliens out there and then not see them again. It can make the universe seem both large and too small all at the same time.

Your list of different aliens is a good starting point, and can be worked out. I just would not revisit the Borg, as they are too overdone as a villain.

Well lets call them the proto borg for a lack of a better word.

They are a galactic pest. There is no queen but instead multiple collectives or unimatrices. Each one independent and uninterested in the other. Much like ants or either species that have drones as the prominent members.

Make them limited by distance. i.e. two unimatrices split over a set distance are incapable of sharing a hive mind due to lag and there for do not work together.

Since they cannot work together are not a unified galactic threat but instead a pluralistic pestilence.

One borg cube can in fact take out a whole ship, however to there hive mind way of thinking are incapable of planning with other unimatrices.

Make it a safety measure that they regard all radio transmissions from other unimatrices as a tactical act of the opponent.

Treating the species more like a true virus or the like would add depth. Make space a place where there are a number of different forms of life competing for a set amount of space.

 

[Autistoid]

Mention of Dune brings up a TV Tropes topic, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AbsentAliens

I think I'm going for achmed's razorblade on this one.

The simplest explanation is that there is conflicting explanations.

Never clarify if aliens are true aliens, or instead products of genetic manipulation of human genetic code.

It's never been a core issue anyway why change it.

The only way in which most species are scene as being distinct is because they come from different worlds.

If you establish that there are different worlds(rotating colonies in space in nearby earth, you have no real reason to ever state whether or not they are humanoid aliens or simply modified humans.

It's almost a non-issue when you think about it.

Just make it clear that each world has a distinct set of beliefs and cultures.

Have the bajoran's claim that they originated from the prophets.

Vulcans were founded by Surak(whatever that means)

The klingon's have kahless, with romulans, cardassians having absolutely no reason to care one way or the other.

 

[Timewalker]

I mean, that is, in essence, the world of Dune. I don't even recall how far in to the future it is set, but it is essentially evolved humanity due to the spice, melange, and the gigantic Empire that developed because of that change. A whole feudal system grew up around those worlds and changes with no aliens involved.

Just food for thought

Dune was (presumably) set in the year 10.000 (but I think they weren't sure because thy had lost many of their historical records) However the only augmented versions of humanity it had early on were the people that replaced computers and the horribly mutated navigators. It was only later on, after a sort of diaspora that they had a bunch of human off-shots that might as well be alien species.
That being said Dune had aliens, just not sentient ones.

It's a common misunderstanding that Dune took place in the year 10,000 AD. It didn't, and this is explained in the material included at the end of Dune, in the Appendices.

The events of Dune begin in the 10,191 A.G. That means "After Guild" - in short, 10,191 after the formation of the Spacing Guild.

The history of the Dune universe is divided into "B.G." (Before Guild) and "A.G." (After Guild). Both Dune and The Dune Encyclopedia are a bit vague as to exactly how many millennia pass between our time and the formation of the Guild, but it was in the neighborhood of 8,000 to 10,000 years.

One example of a pre-Guild historical event is the Butlerian Jihad, which occurred between 201 B.G. and 108 B.G., according to the material in the Glossary section in Dune.

Keep in mind that the Dune Encyclopedia was not written by Frank Herbert, but he did give it his tacit approval with the understanding that anything he wrote after its publication could contradict it (the Encyclopedia only covers the first four novels and doesn't include material from either Heretics of Dune or Chapterhouse: Dune).

The Mentats were people highly trained in memory, mathematics, computation, logic, and seeing patterns and putting information together from widely disparate sources to figure out probabilities of events either occurring or not occurring. They weren't mutated or augmented - just very intensively trained.

The only factions in Dune that might be considered non-human, or at least so extremely mutated that they no longer really relate to the rest of humanity, are the Guild Navigators and the Tleilaxu. The spice changes the humans chosen to be Navigators and the Tleilaxu have extraordinary abilities of mimicry to impersonate other people. The Tleilaxu and Bene Gesserit both engage in breeding programs and manipulating human genetics, but they have different reasons for what they do, and different ways of going about it.

I'm not sure what non-sentient aliens you're referring to, as the sandworms were alien animals, but then so were many other animals referenced in the novels.

A year or so back, I found a Star Trek/Dune crossover story on fanfiction.net. It's an interesting take on what happens when a starship from the early Federation accidentally gets pulled forward in time to 10,191 A.G. and promptly finds itself in trouble with the Guild, for violating its monopoly on space travel. None of the canon Star Trek characters appear in the story.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The sandworms are so integral to the premise, being the source of the spice, that, myself, I would disqualify Dune as an example of the no-alien trope.

 

[Orphalesion]

It's a common misunderstanding that Dune took place in the year 10,000 AD. It didn't, and this is explained in the material included at the end of Dune, in the Appendices.

The events of Dune begin in the 10,191 A.G. That means "After Guild" - in short, 10,191 after the formation of the Spacing Guild.

The history of the Dune universe is divided into "B.G." (Before Guild) and "A.G." (After Guild). Both Dune and The Dune Encyclopedia are a bit vague as to exactly how many millennia pass between our time and the formation of the Guild, but it was in the neighborhood of 8,000 to 10,000 years.

One example of a pre-Guild historical event is the Butlerian Jihad, which occurred between 201 B.G. and 108 B.G., according to the material in the Glossary section in Dune.

Keep in mind that the Dune Encyclopedia was not written by Frank Herbert, but he did give it his tacit approval with the understanding that anything he wrote after its publication could contradict it (the Encyclopedia only covers the first four novels and doesn't include material from either Heretics of Dune or Chapterhouse: Dune).

The Mentats were people highly trained in memory, mathematics, computation, logic, and seeing patterns and putting information together from widely disparate sources to figure out probabilities of events either occurring or not occurring. They weren't mutated or augmented - just very intensively trained.

The only factions in Dune that might be considered non-human, or at least so extremely mutated that they no longer really relate to the rest of humanity, are the Guild Navigators and the Tleilaxu. The spice changes the humans chosen to be Navigators and the Tleilaxu have extraordinary abilities of mimicry to impersonate other people. The Tleilaxu and Bene Gesserit both engage in breeding programs and manipulating human genetics, but they have different reasons for what they do, and different ways of going about it.

I'm not sure what non-sentient aliens you're referring to, as the sandworms were alien animals, but then so were many other animals referenced in the novels.

A year or so back, I found a Star Trek/Dune crossover story on fanfiction.net. It's an interesting take on what happens when a starship from the early Federation accidentally gets pulled forward in time to 10,191 A.G. and promptly finds itself in trouble with the Guild, for violating its monopoly on space travel. None of the canon Star Trek characters appear in the story.

Been years and years since I read Dune. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

Yes non-sentient creatures = animals. Such as the Sandworms. I think that's pretty self-explanatory.

 

[fireproof78]

As for aliens, there is always room for variation, I agree. Beyond that, the details of them can always be sorted out later. I just get leery of putting so many aliens out there and then not see them again. It can make the universe seem both large and too small all at the same time.

Your list of different aliens is a good starting point, and can be worked out. I just would not revisit the Borg, as they are too overdone as a villain.

Well lets call them the proto borg for a lack of a better word.

They are a galactic pest. There is no queen but instead multiple collectives or unimatrices. Each one independent and uninterested in the other. Much like ants or either species that have drones as the prominent members.

Make them limited by distance. i.e. two unimatrices split over a set distance are incapable of sharing a hive mind due to lag and there for do not work together.

Since they cannot work together are not a unified galactic threat but instead a pluralistic pestilence.

One borg cube can in fact take out a whole ship, however to there hive mind way of thinking are incapable of planning with other unimatrices.

Make it a safety measure that they regard all radio transmissions from other unimatrices as a tactical act of the opponent.

Treating the species more like a true virus or the like would add depth. Make space a place where there are a number of different forms of life competing for a set amount of space.

Well, it could work, but I'm hesitant only because it is such a common adversary is the massive, virus like, consuming force. There are a lot of those types in popular science fiction franchises, like Halo, and Stargate, Fallout, among others.

I see the potential there, but it threads a delicate balance of original and derivative.

Mention of Dune brings up a TV Tropes topic, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AbsentAliens

I think I'm going for achmed's razorblade on this one.

The simplest explanation is that there is conflicting explanations.

Never clarify if aliens are true aliens, or instead products of genetic manipulation of human genetic code.

It's never been a core issue anyway why change it.

The only way in which most species are scene as being distinct is because they come from different worlds.

If you establish that there are different worlds(rotating colonies in space in nearby earth, you have no real reason to ever state whether or not they are humanoid aliens or simply modified humans.

It's almost a non-issue when you think about it.

Just make it clear that each world has a distinct set of beliefs and cultures.

Have the bajoran's claim that they originated from the prophets.

Vulcans were founded by Surak(whatever that means)

The klingon's have kahless, with romulans, cardassians having absolutely no reason to care one way or the other.

Eh, it's an issue because the audience is going to wonder and want an explanation. If there is no explanation, then it runs the risk of breaking the illusion.

Also, the other aspect of alien cultures is to be care of singular cultures for aliens. Humanity is very diverse in terms of culture and beliefs and alien culture, regardless of origins should also have some diversity.

 

[Tim Walker]

I'm wondering....

With colonization, how much time is required between founding of the colony, and significant cultural change?

I was wondering because the first attempts at interstellar colonies had appeared by Archer's time. By Kirk's time colonies seemed to be fairly common.

I was thinking that the founding of colonies would eventually lead to diversification of cultures.

 

[Autistoid]

I'm wondering....

With colonization, how much time is required between founding of the colony, and significant cultural change?

I was wondering because the first attempts at interstellar colonies had appeared by Archer's time. By Kirk's time colonies seemed to be fairly common.

I was thinking that the founding of colonies would eventually lead to diversification of cultures.

Well there's three shortcuts with this that can drastically speed things along.

First the earth is already very diverse, if a colony of folk from say Zimbabwe developed there own space culture, for a predominately american based crew they'd be in fact very foreign at-least relative to other star trek aliens.

Secondly with different technology and economic structures it's very easy to assume culture has drastically changed. Some aspects of democracy would not work in a small closed system when one's persons choices could cause the food supply(the biome) to collapse. If you look at the extreme politics of the 1930s it's not hard to see that things could be very different. The idea that colonies are founded by extremist of every variety is not that far off. Keeping in mind it's only the extremes that will gather much attention. Most aliens in trek are essentially human in appearance and cultre.

Genetic engineering, and the idea these people are no longer connected to earth could do alot to change these people. Genetic engineering will likely have a large effect on the minds of these people, with each species taking on very strong personality traits differing there identity from Terrans. Keeping in mind some form of racial based thought would arise if people are infact different on a deeply genetic level, so this would be a time when a form of sophisticated racism would be common.

That all being said there's no law saying this reboot has to be 250 years into the future.

You could push it forward into the future slightly and I think little would change.

For any of these changes to work you have to assume it'll be done subtlety.

 

[T'Girl]

Vulcans were founded by Surak (whatever that means)

As a species? No, Surak was the source of the majority (maybe) of Vulcan's 23rd/24th century philosophy and their social order.

So he might be considered a "founder" or "founding father."

Apparently prior to the mid 22nd century relatively few Vulcan followed Surak's teachings, they were reserved as a people, but didn't strive to be unemotional.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Vulcans were founded by Surak (whatever that means)

As a species? No, Surak was the source of the majority (maybe) of Vulcan's 23rd/24th century philosophy and their social order.

So he might be considered a "founder" or "founding father."

Apparently prior to the mid 22nd century relatively few Vulcan followed Surak's teachings, they were reserved as a people, but didn't strive to be unemotional.

I'm going on memory alone here, but I thought they followed Surak's teachings long before that, but left out some elements they considered unconventional such as the use of mind melds.