"Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real thrill

[t_smitts]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

This episode made me wonder though:

1) How long would it take before a drone is fully functional and has full processing power ? It probably doesn't coincide with the moment the drone-to-be- starts behaving assimilated, right ?

2) If only a few drones from a collective survive, how much knowledge do they have ? Just the sum of their individual knowledge ? Or do they somehow retain all "relevant" knowledge of the collective ?

1) Clearly the former occurs well after the latter, as we saw from both the Tarkaelians and Lt. Hawk.

2) Now that I think about it, where were those drones getting instructions from in the 22nd century? Clearly not from the Borg in that century, since the Borg needed use the dish on the Enterprise-E to send a signal. In past episodes, when Borg have been cut off from the collective (Locutus, Hugh, Seven of Nnie, Two of Nine, Three of Nine, Four of Nine), their individuality reasserted itself. For that matter, why didn't they die, like the Borg on the Enterprise-E, when the Queen died?

 

[at Quark's]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

Now that I think about it, where were those drones getting instructions from in the 22nd century? Clearly not from the Borg in that century, since the Borg needed use the dish on the Enterprise-E to send a signal. In past episodes, when Borg have been cut off from the collective (Locutus, Hugh, Seven of Nnie, Two of Nine, Three of Nine, Four of Nine), their individuality reasserted itself. For that matter, why didn't they die, like the Borg on the Enterprise-E, when the Queen died?

I think a Queen is mainly there to bring order to a collective with a size of thousands-trillions, not necessarily to boss them around. It's possible that a sufficiently small collective doesn't need a Queen, just like the Borg were depicted originally. So perhaps those drones needn't get "instructions" as they knew by themselves "what had to be done" .Their ultimate objectives never change, only the intermediate goals.

I always took the death of the collective to be analogous to a circuit being short-circuited. The drones in ENT had been shot (and shut) down a few hours before, weren't "plugged in" to the circuit and hence were not 'short circuited'.

As for regaining individuality: with the exception of Locutus, it has never been shown to be immediate-- and Picard was a mature man, only being assimilated for a few days. I'd think regaining individuality would be harder the longer one had been assimilated or the younger one was at the time of assimilation, as shown by 7 of 9. (Hugh seemed to have an easier time, slowly just "developing" a personality, but we saw him only for a few days and we know next to nothing about his past).

 

[eyeresist]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

2) Now that I think about it, where were those drones getting instructions from in the 22nd century? Clearly not from the Borg in that century, since the Borg needed use the dish on the Enterprise-E to send a signal. In past episodes, when Borg have been cut off from the collective (Locutus, Hugh, Seven of Nnie, Two of Nine, Three of Nine, Four of Nine), their individuality reasserted itself.

Presumably a drone would have to be completely isolated, i.e. no other Borg around. Two or more Borg constitutes a collective!

I think a Queen is mainly there to bring order to a collective with a size of thousands-trillions, not necessarily to boss them around. It's possible that a sufficiently small collective doesn't need a Queen, just like the Borg were depicted originally.

I think Queens are there for the purpose of communication and diplomacy, when simple firepower won't get the Collective what it wants.

 

[t_smitts]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

2) Now that I think about it, where were those drones getting instructions from in the 22nd century? Clearly not from the Borg in that century, since the Borg needed use the dish on the Enterprise-E to send a signal. In past episodes, when Borg have been cut off from the collective (Locutus, Hugh, Seven of Nnie, Two of Nine, Three of Nine, Four of Nine), their individuality reasserted itself.

Presumably a drone would have to be completely isolated, i.e. no other Borg around. Two or more Borg constitutes a collective!

I think a Queen is mainly there to bring order to a collective with a size of thousands-trillions, not necessarily to boss them around. It's possible that a sufficiently small collective doesn't need a Queen, just like the Borg were depicted originally.

I think Queens are there for the purpose of communication and diplomacy, when simple firepower won't get the Collective what it wants.

Then what was the deal with the three Borg in "Survival Instinct"?

And how often, (other than "Scorpion", and possibly "Endgame" and "BOBW") have the Borg engaged in diplomacy, beyond "you will be assimilated, resistance is futile"?

 

[at Quark's]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

And how often, (other than "Scorpion", and possibly "Endgame" and "BOBW") have the Borg engaged in diplomacy, beyond "you will be assimilated, resistance is futile"?

It's funny, I was just thinking in this direction. Well, not about diplomacy but about the Borg being tactically much cleverer than usual in Regeneration. I mean, they flee when their weapons are disabled, they set up a trap by luring the Enterprise close to them, then disrupting their plasma flow regulators (or whatever) by a job that had previously been set up by those two escaped drones....

Could it be that borg drones aren't "stupid zombies" at all, but that they simply don't NEED to be clever (or engage in diplomacy, for that matter) in most situations because they'll overwhelm their opponents anyway, and they consider tactics or diplomacy a less efficient use of their resources , only switching over to these when they don't have the upper hand ?

 

[Trek Survivor]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

Yes, I also thought this was a good one.

 

[Mk_Sn]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

It's a decent episode, but shows the series for the most part wasn't comfortable being a prequel. It could have been any other Borg episode.

 

[t_smitts]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

It's a decent episode, but shows the series for the most part wasn't comfortable being a prequel. It could have been any other Borg episode.

That's a rather curious statement since the show's entire reason for being was to be a prequel, and indeed the best episodes ("Dear Doctor", "Cogenitor", "First Flight", "In a Mirror, Darkly" and basically any episode with Andorians) wouldn't have made sense in the context of any other species.

And indeed, depriving the characters (but not the audience) of that familiarity with the Borg, was a bit of a fresh take. Heck, even in "Q Who", Picard and the crew has both Q and Guinan to inform him at least a bit about who and what they are. We see both the Arctic team and later Phlox woefully underestimating their danger (and paying a heavy price for it) and Archer naively thinking he can save the researchers and the Tarkaleans right up to the end. No other crew could be shown making such errors in judgment.

While I'm posting, one other thing I wished we'd seen is having the Borg drones who board the ship remove parts from their fallen comrades, who subsequently self-vaporize, like they used to TNG (but never did anywhere else, for some reason). Not so much out of nostalgia, but it would explain what happened to the dead/injured drones. I know we all assume they were beamed back, but it would've been nice to see something.

 

[Mk_Sn]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

It's not a prequel to establish that in the 22nd Century humans battled the Borg when they've never heard of or knew of anything like them by the 24th, a very unlikely situation. Also didn't like the whole Terminator style time paradox situation where these events are responsible for "Q Who" and onward. It was clearly an attempt at a ratings grab that didn't work. The first two seasons didn't work at all (mainly for abandoning its premise and having less than stellar characters), so when the show got decent, it was already doomed.

On a side note, Dear Doctor is a terrible episode that's among the worst of those dreaded "Prime Directive" stories, and this is supposed to be before that directive even existed! You'd expect stories of humans screwing up primitive alien civilizations and messing around as a lead up to why such a draconian measure was required, but no, the series acts like these directives and rules already exist. Oh well.

Anyway, getting ahead of myself :P

 

[t_smitts]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

Yes, it's obviously a stand-alone episode with little or no long-term consequences (we don't even know if the Borg signal reached the Delta Quadrant), but for what it was (a straightforward action/horror episode), it worked well.

"Dear Doctor" is actually one of the better-received episodes from the first season. Yes, Archer chooses the path of non-interference in that episode but that doesn't mean he will in other instances, and it certainly doesn't mean other officers will (as we see in "Cogenitor").

 

[Mk_Sn]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

Nah, it clearly establishes the signal sent is the reason the Borg are attacking in the 24th century. Blegh. The plot doesn't work and it's just a generic Borg episode. Again, I think ENT would have been as a prequel, and when it was finally, people tend to agree.

Maybe it's well-received, but it's awful. It's a "Prime Directive" episode, which pretty much all suck (with two or three exceptions) because the "Prime Directive" doesn't make sense. Hell, on more than one occasion it's been used to justify genocide! Also Insurrection was a Prime Directive plot, so enough said about that...

Cogenitor is also not a good episode. Most of ENT to be fair isn't very good, hence why it's on the lower end of the Trek totem pole. Just above Voyager and most of the the TOS IMO :P

 

[t_smitts]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

We don't know that the signal was received or not. Yes, it's a straightforward Borg story, but, again, the twist is that no one knows who the Borg are.

The argument behind the Prime Directive is actually a pretty sound one. We have a LONG history of f_cking up less advanced or developed societies. It's pretty arrogant to think we can go in and fix everything. (It also begs the question of what if some OTHER civilization comes in and decides to "help" us by imposing their values on us?)

 

[Mk_Sn]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

Come on, it's clearly implied :P If not, a major stretch of a coincidence. It's not a twist because we, the viewer know.

The argument behind the Prime Directive is actually a pretty sound one. We have a LONG history of f_cking up less advanced or developed societies. It's pretty arrogant to think we can go in and fix everything. (It also begs the question of what if some OTHER civilization comes in and decides to "help" us by imposing their values on us?)

Not really. Firstly the Prime Directive changes based on the story, it's never consistent and also, the very idea of exploring space and meeting new races would basically violate its very precepts, since that's the best way to interfere and change their cultures. The Agony Booth went into some great detail in their Insurrection review on this.

Also the Prime Directive seems to be written for the main characters to wipe their a** with it, which that review I mentioned goes into as well. It doesn't make any sense, esp. those episodes where its cited as justification for allowing genocide (at least I can remember!)

 

[Ithekro]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

Not genocide. Natural extinction. There is a difference.

 

[Go-Captain]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

"Regeneration" is one of my favorite episodes too. One of the aspects which really stands out to me is how the Borg are finally given tactical depth, and we finally see how they altered so much of the Enterprise-E in "First Contact" in such an extreme way, as well as Voyager in "Scorpion."

We're all used to the plodding meat shields the drones usually act as, but in this episode the Borg are in a desperate situation. The Borg consist of only a couple drones, and they dodge, run, and leap at enemies while in a partially assimilated state. It shows us Borg are smart enough not to rely on attrition when they don't have the resources.

We also see Borg drones are all walking replicators, capable of turning any material into Borg hardware with a touch of their tubules. That is one of the most exciting moments in the episode for me.

 

[Ithekro]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

It is interesting that Picard (and Temporal Investigations) didn't clean up the mess.

 

[Mk_Sn]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

Not genocide. Natural extinction. There is a difference.

That makes no sense, because curing plagues or diverting comets or surviving natural disasters should thus be forbidden. Does the Federation as such allow member species to go extinct due to genetic diseases as such? Seriously, what a ridiculous plot, clearly trying to me morally ambiguous but just silly, and the worst thing is, it fits the Prime Directive trend! Even Picard justified allowing a species to go extinct with it! Just a terrible plot device that even the writers themselves realize is just unworkable (but had to use due to Roddenberry).

Apparently, according to Memory Alpha, Archer was originally supposed to order the doctor to give the cure anyway, and he would refuse, creating tension. That might have made the episode more interesting, but the reasoning for withholding still idiotic.

 

[Ithekro]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

There is the concept of unforseen consequences that has come up on our planet when it comes to saving species from extinction. A species in one part of the world starts to die out, but someone decides they want to perserve the species, and breeds them elsewhere until there are enough to return to their old habitate. But when reintroduced, they cause untold damage to the ecosystem that had been adapted to them not existing anymore. In fact the change in the ecosystem was what was killing them off in the first place, which allowed other species to take over. But when humans reintroduced the species to the region, they distrupt the natural flow of nature and cause problems. The reintroduced species now endangers multiple species in the region and will likely make more than just themselves extinct once they local animal population die because when the regions food supply run out because humans thought they knew better.

The Prime Directive is designed to protect the Federation from causing problems for itself later down the road. Note that the Prime Directive does not apply to non-native species, and also member planets. The idea is to prevent starship captains from potentally causing a problem for the Federation. Be it in one year, a hundred years, and a million years.

 

[mswood]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

I really like this episode, and I would have loved it if it would have done one of two things.

Either have Phlox get assimilated and killed (not likely), or have the drones not able to fully assimilate new hosts. I liked how they showed the ones in Sickbay. And it gives a much easier to except situation where Phlox could managed to cure himself.

Besides that the episode plays well into the the past events of First Contact, and also gives a reason for why a cube explores that segment of the universe long before the Borg domain had spread that far out of the Delta quadrant. Strong music, good and really strong staging of the drones inside the ship, which really reminded me of the scene in Shockwave I where they board the Sultan ship. Trek normally up to this point still featured fairly straight forward actions scenes without making attempts to keep up with the rest of the medium.

 

[Mytran]

Re: "Regeneration" revisited: Color me impressed, this one's a real th

There is the concept of unforseen consequences that has come up on our planet when it comes to saving species from extinction. A species in one part of the world starts to die out, but someone decides they want to perserve the species, and breeds them elsewhere until there are enough to return to their old habitate. But when reintroduced, they cause untold damage to the ecosystem that had been adapted to them not existing anymore. In fact the change in the ecosystem was what was killing them off in the first place, which allowed other species to take over. But when humans reintroduced the species to the region, they distrupt the natural flow of nature and cause problems. The reintroduced species now endangers multiple species in the region and will likely make more than just themselves extinct once they local animal population die because when the regions food supply run out because humans thought they knew better.

Except that this is not the situation as presented in the episode: A species has a horrible disease and is using its technological advances to try and cure it - specifically, developing space travel to seek out medicines. They are actively asking for help, as a result of their natural scientific development up to this point. Starfleet swooping in and interfering in a situation that is not their concern is one thing - responding to a distress call is quite another.