Game Of Thrones Season 5 TV Only Discussion (Spoilers)

[Cyrus]

A lot of people are now rooting against Stannis. But if this burning people magic thingie actually works they will be disappointed, he will gain more success from this horrible thing he did.

btw, the leeches were worth another try, Stannis should have insisted on that instead of the burning.

Hopefully Arya won't have to pose as a young prostitute to gain her revenge on meryn trant.

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ I'm thinking that's exactly where this is going. Trant did say he would be back again the following day and needed something "fresh". Total telegraph of what's coming.

 

[Orphalesion]

Yes, because everyone else vying for the Iron Throne will welcome him with open arms and agree to put aside their differences so they can go and fight the White Walkers together.

I understand your sentiment towards Stannis; he burned his daughter alive at the stake, but your argument for holding that sentiment doesn't hold water when you look at things from within the context of the world they live in.

What I meant was they will change their minds once they have hordes of wights scratch against the doors of King's Landing.
I do think they will realize the futility of their struggles if and when the invasion comes and then it would have been better if Stannis had saved his strength instead of, like everybody else, using it up in the War of the 5 Kings.

I do not say he should have gone to Kings Landing and campaigned there for a defense plan against the WW invasion, what I'm saying he, of all people, should have known to save his strength until the final hour.
That would have been acting in the interest of the Realm.

Taing part in a bloody civil war because he is the "real" king? That is Stannis acting in the interest of Stannis.

And I don't have or had any more sympathy for the other parties int the war either. In my opinion Robb was in the wrong to declare himself "King in the North". It wouldn't have brought back Ned, endangered Sansa and Arya and killed thousands of innocents.

 

[Kelthaz]

Yes, because everyone else vying for the Iron Throne will welcome him with open arms and agree to put aside their differences so they can go and fight the White Walkers together.

I understand your sentiment towards Stannis; he burned his daughter alive at the stake, but your argument for holding that sentiment doesn't hold water when you look at things from within the context of the world they live in.

What I meant was they will change their minds once they have hordes of wights scratch against the doors of King's Landing.
I do think they will realize the futility of their struggles if and when the invasion comes and then it would have been better if Stannis had saved his strength instead of, like everybody else, using it up in the War of the 5 Kings.

By that point it'll be too late. Stannis needs to stop the White Walkers at the wall. He needs to stabilize the North immediately.

 

[theenglish]

You're misunderstanding Stannis's base motivations. He believes he is entitled to be King and that he is the rightful heir, because he is. Tommen is bastard-born and lacks any of the blood that the Baratheon claim was built upon. Stannis is a man of law and justice. In his narrow interpretation of that law, he not only should be king, he must be king.

Neither the Baratheon's nor the Lannister's are the rightful heirs. Baratheon claimed the throne only after taking it from the Targaryens. They are all pretenders.

The whole point of this story, inspired by the Yorks and Lancasters, is that the divine right of kings is bullshit. At this point there is no rightful ruler and, like in England, it will only be the most ruthless who take the throne and then write the history of the kingdom in their favor.

 

[InklingStar]

You're misunderstanding Stannis's base motivations. He believes he is entitled to be King and that he is the rightful heir, because he is. Tommen is bastard-born and lacks any of the blood that the Baratheon claim was built upon. Stannis is a man of law and justice. In his narrow interpretation of that law, he not only should be king, he must be king.

Neither the Baratheon's nor the Lannister's are the rightful heirs. Baratheon claimed the throne only after taking it from the Targaryens. They are all pretenders.

The whole point of this story, inspired by the Yorks and Lancasters, is that the divine right of kings is bullshit. At this point there is no rightful ruler and, like in England, it will only be the most ruthless who take the throne and then write the history of the kingdom in their favor.

Robert won the throne by conquest, which was always a legitimate tactic in medieval Europe. He used his matrilineal descent from the Targaryans as an excuse, but his crown truly rested on the death of Rhaegar on the Trident and the death of Aerys by the Kingslayer, and was propped up by the victorious armies in the field and the gold from Casterly Rock.

Technically, after Robert was established in his rule, Viserys became a pretender. (Think the Glorious Revolution. James II fled the oncoming William III, and though he claimed to be the rightful king, history remembers him and his sons as pretenders, simply because they never regained their throne.)

The bigger question now is who is left as an heir? Tommen obviously has no children, and neither does his sister Myrcella. Should they both die, or their illegitimacy be proven, that leaves Stannis as proper heir to Robert. As we saw last weekend, he no longer has an heir, so he would be a temporary solution at best, unless he remarries and has a son. After Stannis, the only remaining heir is Dany, who has been informed by a semi-reliable source that she is barren. The future of the Iron Throne looks rather unstable...

 

[Skywalker]

The only other known person with Baratheon blood left in the world (not counting any distant relations) is Gendry, and who knows where he's rowed off to.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Spoiler: VERY IMPORTANT BOOK RELATED ABOUT SACRIFICING OFFSPRING OF KINGS FOR M'S SHIT GOD

Okay so what was that baby switch in the books about if not about king's blood?

 

[InklingStar]

Spoiler: VERY IMPORTANT BOOK RELATED ABOUT SACRIFICING OFFSPRING OF KINGS FOR M'S SHIT GOD

Okay so what was that baby switch in the books about if not about king's blood?

Spoiler: Indeed...

It was about king's blood, as I recall. Jon feared that Mel would burn Val's baby, being the son of the King-Beyond-The-Wall. He also sent Aemon away, who being a brother of a king might tempt Mel as well.

The only other known person with Baratheon blood left in the world (not counting any distant relations) is Gendry, and who knows where he's rowed off to.

Robert had many illegitimate children besides Gendry. Remember the witch's prophecy to Cersei at the beginning of this season? She would have three kids and he would have... however many, I forgot the precise number. (It was 16 in the book.) Anyway, Joffrey had several killed way back in season 2 but if you go by the books there is still Mya Stone in the Vale, Edric Storm at Storm's End (in the show his plotline was combined with Gendry's), and a few children of random prostitutes scattered throughout the realm. Even though they are all illegitimate, Edric probably has the highest probability of getting his claim recognized, as his mother was highborn. Gendry's mother was nobody in particular.

Spoiler: Book spoiler that may yet happen on TV:

In the book, a young man claiming to be Aegon VI, son of Rhaegar, (the baby whose head the Mountain bashed in), invades Westeros, backed by a mercenary company. Some have speculated that this role in the show might go to Gendry.

 

[Skywalker]

I did say known.

Edric Storm and Mya Stone don't exist in the show's Westeros. Not yet, anyway. I'm only talking about characters in the show.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Spoiler: VERY IMPORTANT BOOK RELATED ABOUT SACRIFICING OFFSPRING OF KINGS FOR M'S SHIT GOD

Okay so what was that baby switch in the books about if not about king's blood?

Spoiler: Indeed...

It was about king's blood, as I recall. Jon feared that Mel would burn Val's baby, being the son of the King-Beyond-The-Wall. He also sent Aemon away, who being a brother of a king might tempt Mel as well.

AAAAh and because Val does not exist in the show this switch won't happen I presume?

I'm glad, that was super depressing in the book.

 

[InklingStar]

Spoiler: VERY IMPORTANT BOOK RELATED ABOUT SACRIFICING OFFSPRING OF KINGS FOR M'S SHIT GOD

Okay so what was that baby switch in the books about if not about king's blood?

Spoiler: Indeed...

It was about king's blood, as I recall. Jon feared that Mel would burn Val's baby, being the son of the King-Beyond-The-Wall. He also sent Aemon away, who being a brother of a king might tempt Mel as well.

AAAAh and because Val does not exist in the show this switch won't happen I presume?

I'm glad, that was super depressing in the book.

Spoiler: In the show...

there is no Val, no Dalla, no Mance baby. I would guess that Sam is sent to Oldtown with Gilly and her baby completely straight up next episode.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Right. I had missed that there were people missing to make this switch happen. Thank you for your info! I read the books a while back.

I think the show is vastly improved with the pruning and conflating of characters.

 

[Beagleman]

Two questions. First, why did John and company come walking to Castle Black from north of the wall, they had ships, why march 100 miles through possibly Wight infested territory?
And more important how the hell does Dany expect to conquer the whole of Westeros when she can't even control one city? Besides the psychological effect, how much difference do 3 dragons really make, Drogon didn't seem to do too well against some guys with Spears...

 

[Scout101]

1. census?
2. She's a work in progress, she's learning. Still pretty young herself.
3. Drogon is just a baby still, dragons get MUCH larger and live around 200 years. He'll be a flying fortress before long, he's barely a toddler at the moment.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

She won't be conquering Westeros. She'll be melting White Walkers and their minions on the back of her fire breathing beast. The dragons are the only ones that can do that and with WINTER COMING!!1 by the time she hauls her army all the way to Lannister land winter will have advanced sufficiently to make this not about the Iron Throne at all.

After she burns them all up and turns back winter (something something Bran, NO SCIENCE) she can sit on the Iron Throne all she likes. People will beg her to.

 

[intrinsical]

And more important how the hell does Dany expect to conquer the whole of Westeros when she can't even control one city?

Ruling a kingdom is a skill that has to be learned. That is why Dani hasn't invaded Westeros yet. In many ways, she is using Mereen as a place to learn how to rule. And as Tyrion has pointed out, she has made a mess of things by relying on just the love of its poor ex-slave-now-free-citizens and not the nobles. The point is, she has learned what not to do. Hopefully she will pick up on what to do in Westeros.

Besides the psychological effect, how much difference do 3 dragons really make, Drogon didn't seem to do too well against some guys with Spears...

Never underestimate the power of an airforce, especially when the other side doesn't have an airforce or anti-air weapons. Again, inexperience is showing. Drogon's mistake was landing to attack rather than just doing swooping runs while flying circles around the arena. And as others have pointed out, Drogon is still a toddler. When he grows a thicker hide, hand thrown spears and arrows are probably not going to have much inpact on him.

 

[Klaus]

...the only problem with the whole 'Jon-and-Dany-team-up-to-wipe-out-the-Walkers-and-save-the-day' process, which they certainly seem to be setting us up for, is this:


How can we expect that the showrunners and GRRM are going to give us any sort of happy ending? Wouldn't that be a betrayal of the very guiding spirit of the series lol? I'm expecting something like the last act of Hamlet, but not so cheerful.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

...the only problem with the whole 'Jon-and-Dany-team-up-to-wipe-out-the-Walkers-and-save-the-day' process, which they certainly seem to be setting us up for, is this:


How can we expect that the showrunners and GRRM are going to give us any sort of happy ending? Wouldn't that be a betrayal of the very guiding spirit of the series lol? I'm expecting something like the last act of Hamlet, but not so cheerful.

I would definitely expect a lot of the characters to die, and it's probably doubtful that many fan favorite characters will end up on the same side, but I don't think the show's going to go so dark as to say the White Walkers win, the end.

Assuming that's the case, they are somewhat limited in how they can believably end the story. No one faction can defeat the walkers alone, and anyone who wants to try is going to need either Jon Snow's dragonglass, Melissandre's fire god or Dani's dragons (preferably at least two out of three).

Considering Jon is already at the wall and doesn't really care who's king, he's the clear candidate to team up with whoever happens to be left for him to team up with. Unless the Walkers break the wall and Stannis and Dani are forced to work together to save the 7 kingdoms - but I don't see those two working together very well.

 

[137th Gebirg]

why did John and company come walking to Castle Black from north of the wall, they had ships, why march 100 miles through possibly Wight infested territory?

I was thinking the exact same thing myself. They still had all their boats. They could have easily sailed south, towards Eastwatch-by-the-Sea and landed south of the wall. The rest of the Watch knew they were out there, what they were doing and expected them back (where did the boats come from in the first place if not Eastwatch?) and wouldn't have attacked them.

I think that was just an inexplicable scene designed solely to establish that Thorne is starting to develop a newfound, yet begrudging, respect and trust for Snow, allowing them through the gate. It was pretty contrived and unnecessary otherwise, IMO.