Star Wars: Episode VII: The Nerd Rage Awakens

[cooleddie74]

Thankfully.

I like Jackson and Cameron (well, the majority of Cameron's movies, anyways) but I'm glad George didn't practice their philosophy. I don't know if a five-hour Director's Unedited Cut of A New Hope or The Phantom Menace in an overpriced multi-disc box set would be the best thing for the fans, casual or even hardcore.

 

[fireproof78]

I might be getting some facts wrong here, but I thought Lucas did stop writing the dialogue and got in some new writers for Episodes II and III?

I'm split on the prequels. There's a lot wrong with them, but there's a lot of stuff I do still like. I like how it expanded the universe and subverted what a lot of us had taken for granted as backstory, and I appreciate that there is a fair amount of imagination and ambition in them. I think my major problem is that they feel (to me) like the first or second drafts of what could have been great movies.

Has anyone read the comic adaptation of the earlier Episode IV script? The prequels are a lot like that. Star Wars before a million edits and an assload of improvisations were added in.

Though Id still take the prequel trilogy over something like Green Lantern or Insurrection. Give me astoundingly uneven over boringly 'blah' any day.

I agree that the PT is amazing, visually. Naboo is one of my favorite planets, and the buildup to the Grand Army of the Republic and the Clone Wars and seeing the Jedi in all of their abilities. The story is what drags it all down, and the lack of the characters.

As for additional writers, Ep. II had a yes-man co-writer (Jonathan Hales, I believe). and Ep. III was rumored to have a couple of scene ghost written by Spielberg and Tom Stoppard. Supposedly, Lucas also hired a dialogue coach to work with the actors because he was not on set all the time to interact with the actors.

As for Lucas' edits and additions, I agree that the man does not know when to stop tinkering. I think part of the other difficulty that he has is simply that people love the OT for all the reasons he doesn't like it. I've heard it put that the PT was his attempt to show what he wanted to do (at least from a visual standpoint). And, I think that is why he wants them to be the only ones. He wants his vision to be on display and doesn't want to acknowledge anything less. That is my opinion though

 

[Hound of UIster]

The Making of ROTS book I believe mostly shows that most of the dialogue was for ROTS done by Lucas for Lucas. Both Hale on AOTC and Stoppard for ROTS and also Fisher for TPM largely seemed to have given the dialogue a pass without any major contributions. I believe Spielberg's main (unused) contribution for ROTS was helping storyboard several scenes for the Utapau Chase between Obi-Wan and Grievous. The major lifting in terms of writing was mostly Lucas himself with little revision between drafts that you see in the OT.

 

[FPAlpha]

Becoming a Jedi is not easy. The temptations of the Dark Side are high. That the Jedi use to spend most of their early lives in the temples was probably to keep them more balanced in the force, with better training, meditation, and the like.

Ezra is far more likely to draw on the Dark Side to get things done. He might not know it, but at least he feels cold after using the Dark Side. The Dark Side is quicker, easier, more seductive. It gets things done now. Got a live problem? Force choke-neck snap, problem solved.

Ashoka might fall to the Dark Side, but she seems to have passed the trails that could have lead her to the dark path. All that remains is Skyguy. She cannot defeat him. His fate is written. But He is interested that she lives.

What will be interesting is seeing shows that take place between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens. They got about 30 years to play with there. And a lot of old EU stories they can retell using whatever hero characters they wish to fill those roles. Not everything has to happen around the Heroes of Yavin.

(Should this go to the Rebel's thread, and does it need to become more general than just Season One?)

You know.. as i grew up and got older and maybe a bit wiser that black & white attitude of the Jedi didn't make sense because it runs contrary to human (or alien) nature.

Jedi have absolutely no problem cutting someones limb off in battle, what's the difference to Force Lightning (which just induces pain but doesn't cripple for life)?

Jedi Mind Control, another very grey area.

Force Choke, Luke even used it himself in Return of the Jedi and i'd prefer a little choking to incapacitate someone that giving them a concussion or hacking of a limb.

The Jedi don't even give you the benefit of the doubt that you could control your urges, just because i may get riled up doesn't mean i'll blast the guy away who irks me, real world analogy could be a weapons carrier chosing to just swear at the driver who cut him off or actively pursuing him to stick a gun to his face.

If the Jedi would acknowledge that one could handle both sides of his character i think there'd be less Dark Jedi/Sith around who i believe sometimes were driven away from the Jedi due to their rigid code and were just unfortunate to be picked up by the Sith.

Anakin is a perfect example of this.. a bright, very talented man who had some impulse control issues and who chafed against the rigid structure of the Jedi. Palpatine noticed this and nurtured these feelings.. i wonder what would have happened if the Jedi trusted Anakin a little bit more and let him do his thing.

 

[RandyS]

The Making of ROTS book I believe mostly shows that most of the dialogue was for ROTS done by Lucas for Lucas. Both Hale on AOTC and Stoppard for ROTS and also Fisher for TPM largely seemed to have given the dialogue a pass without any major contributions. I believe Spielberg's main (unused) contribution for ROTS was helping storyboard several scenes for the Utapau Chase between Obi-Wan and Grievous. The major lifting in terms of writing was mostly Lucas himself with little revision between drafts that you see in the OT.

I thought Fisher's work on The Phantom Menace script was proven to be untrue?

 

[cooleddie74]

You know.. as i grew up and got older and maybe a bit wiser that black & white attitude of the Jedi didn't make sense because it runs contrary to human (or alien) nature.

Jedi have absolutely no problem cutting someones limb off in battle, what's the difference to Force Lightning (which just induces pain but doesn't cripple for life)?

Jedi Mind Control, another very grey area.

The Jedi and Yoda in particular when it came to Luke's instruction were just great at advertising. They sold their product (however noble it might have been in the grander scheme of things) with a skill that many real-world companies would love to have because at one moment they'd be slicing enemies to pieces in a battle and the next they'd be telling initiates that peace and tranquility are the path to becoming an ideal Jedi Knight.

I don't mind that they had to resort to violence in war or personal self-defense to get things accomplished, but it is amusing that they're potrayed as a noble organization of peaceful warrior-diplomats in the Original Trilogy whereas the background established in the Prequels and The Clone Wars clearly shows they can kick the ass of just about anyone with little provocation and have a personal code and a set of Republic laws that covers and protects them in almost any situation.

Jedi were great at marketing. What can you say?

 

[davejames]

I think my major problem is that they feel (to me) like the first or second drafts of what could have been great movies.

Has anyone read the comic adaptation of the earlier Episode IV script? The prequels are a lot like that. Star Wars before a million edits and an assload of improvisations were added in.

They definitely feel like rough first drafts, but were probably much more the result of Lucas now having the ability to jam as many characters and ideas and effects into them as he wanted.

Which is clearly what he would have liked to have done with the original movies as well (as we see with that comic), but thankfully the limited budgets and technology of the time meant he had to severely pare things down and really simplify his story.

Though Id still take the prequel trilogy over something like Green Lantern or Insurrection. Give me astoundingly uneven over boringly 'blah' any day.

Eh, those movies might be pretty blah, but I still find them much more watchable than any of the prequels. And of course the TNG characters are about a thousand times more fun and engaging than anybody in the prequels.

 

[RoJoHen]

I just decided to rewatch all the Star Wars movies this past week, which I haven't done in a few years. I find that I actually like the prequels a lot more now that I've seen "The Clone Wars" TV show. I can pretend that they're just long episodes of that show rather than big budget movies on their own.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

<<
One complaint that a lot of people make about that version that I don't understand, is the change in Anakin's ghost. It really makes a lot more sense for it to be Hayden Chritsensen since that was what he looked like before he became Darth Vader. I guess you could try say that the original actor was what he would have looked like if he wasn't all scarred up, but I still like Hayden there better. It also makes it feel more like things have come full circle. >>

I'm an official George Lucas apologist, but this one is terrible because Yoda and Obi-Wan are the same age as when they died yet Anakin, responsible for the deaths of thousands if not millions, is REWARDED with a youthful appearance from twenty years ago. If they replaced the other two with Prequel Era Yoda and Obi-Wan then it would be acceptable, but as is it's just internally inconsistent.

Earlier on in the movie when Luke asks Obi-Wan why he lied he was told that once Anakin became Darth Vader the good man who Anakin was died. So really the force Ghost of Anakin represented Anakin's appearance before he became Darth Vader.

I always looked at Old Anakin as the Anakin that should have been, the Anakin who didn't follow the path of the Dark Side. Seeing him as an old man showed that Luke had redeemed him of the taint of the Dark Side.

Young Anakin removes that.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Using Hayden Christensen as Anakin's Force ghost in ROTJ makes less sense than using Sebastian Shaw.

I always looked at Old Anakin as the Anakin that should have been, the Anakin who didn't follow the path of the Dark Side. Seeing him as an old man showed that Luke had redeemed him of the taint of the Dark Side.

Young Anakin removes that.

Bingo. This way of reading it is, by the way, evident on first viewing, as it was to me on the opening midnight showing. Replacing Shaw with Christensen overwrote the original implied meaning.

 

[JD]

When it comes to Lucas, I have to wonder if he would have been better off with a real co-writer and/or co-director . Someone who could help him reign in he excesses and take charge of the stuff he wasn't that great at, like the dialouge and directing the actors, and let him focus on the visuals and designs.

 

[DWF]

<<
One complaint that a lot of people make about that version that I don't understand, is the change in Anakin's ghost. It really makes a lot more sense for it to be Hayden Chritsensen since that was what he looked like before he became Darth Vader. I guess you could try say that the original actor was what he would have looked like if he wasn't all scarred up, but I still like Hayden there better. It also makes it feel more like things have come full circle. >>

I'm an official George Lucas apologist, but this one is terrible because Yoda and Obi-Wan are the same age as when they died yet Anakin, responsible for the deaths of thousands if not millions, is REWARDED with a youthful appearance from twenty years ago. If they replaced the other two with Prequel Era Yoda and Obi-Wan then it would be acceptable, but as is it's just internally inconsistent.

Earlier on in the movie when Luke asks Obi-Wan why he lied he was told that once Anakin became Darth Vader the good man who Anakin was died. So really the force Ghost of Anakin represented Anakin's appearance before he became Darth Vader.

I always looked at Old Anakin as the Anakin that should have been, the Anakin who didn't follow the path of the Dark Side. Seeing him as an old man showed that Luke had redeemed him of the taint of the Dark Side.

Young Anakin removes that.

But Anakin was at least ten years younger than Obi-Wan, with Sebastian Shaw they look the same age when in reality Anakin would only be about 40 years old.

 

[fireproof78]

Using Hayden Christensen as Anakin's Force ghost in ROTJ makes less sense than using Sebastian Shaw.

I always looked at Old Anakin as the Anakin that should have been, the Anakin who didn't follow the path of the Dark Side. Seeing him as an old man showed that Luke had redeemed him of the taint of the Dark Side.

Young Anakin removes that.

Bingo. This way of reading it is, by the way, evident on first viewing, as it was to me on the opening midnight showing. Replacing Shaw with Christensen overwrote the original implied meaning.

I have never heard it put this way before, but I have to agree 1000%.

When it comes to Lucas, I have to wonder if he would have been better off with a real co-writer and/or co-director . Someone who could help him reign in he excesses and take charge of the stuff he wasn't that great at, like the dialouge and directing the actors, and let him focus on the visuals and designs.

Absolutely agree with this point. One of my favorite commentaries (and I'll mess up the exact quote) that if there is a discussion, in general, and someone pitches a good idea, George can recognize that. However, there are very few people who can tell George to stop and to limit him. Spielberg and Coppola are among the few.

With the PT, George had the money and no one to really tell him "No, George."

 

[Trekkin]

I thought I read somewhere that Lucas did recognise (when an exec pointed it out), how the ending to TPM wasn't working (too many important things going on at once for the audience to get emotionally invested in all of them.) It's just by that point, they couldn't simply snip some parts and extend others.

I have to wonder - Did Lucas purposely surround himself with sycophants? Or was it simply a case of no one wanting to argue with the guy?

He probably embodies why this is both a great thing, and sometimes a curse:
"George has never stopped asking 'Any ideas?' and the world has been a better place for it."
— Steven Spielberg

 

[Venardhi]

I don't think anyone purposely surrounds themselves with sycophants, they just slowly alienate the people who aren't.

 

[fireproof78]

I thought I read somewhere that Lucas did recognise (when an exec pointed it out), how the ending to TPM wasn't working (too many important things going on at once for the audience to get emotionally invested in all of them.) It's just by that point, they couldn't simply snip some parts and extend others.

I have to wonder - Did Lucas purposely surround himself with sycophants? Or was it simply a case of no one wanting to argue with the guy?

He probably embodies why this is both a great thing, and sometimes a curse:
"George has never stopped asking 'Any ideas?' and the world has been a better place for it."
— Steven Spielberg

George definitely was asking people for input, at least to some degree. There are definitely shots of him talking with Spielberg, and Frank Oz, and others and kind of filling them in on his ideas, at least visually. The art department produced enough concept art for ten movies, it seems.

I think that the people who ended up working for George simply were not willing to say no, and those who could didn't think it was necessary to step in.

 

[Mr Light]

I remember seeing/reading somewhere that he did reach out to people (Kasdan, Speilberg, etc) to work on it but they all felt that he should write/direct it himself because it was his vision. And I think he says in the TPM documentary he was only going to direct the first one to establish the technology and then hand it off to others like he did with the OT.

 

[Trekkin]

I never realised until today that he was one of the financial backers for Apocalypse Now. He didn't ask for a credit apparently.

This conversation made me try watching Rebels on my commute today. It's not bad, I just,,,don't care for it. I think it falls into that 'blah' category I mentioned up thread. I'm going to take a swing and say Lucas isn't involved with that one.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I thought the new disney versions were worst - for example, the way that when they run into Pig Noise in Mos Eisley and instead of saying "my friend doesn't like you" he says "My friend doesn't like high prices which is why pre-paying for a disneyworld pass saved him money" and then they discuss which ride is the best is just stupid.

If the Empire aren't the bad guys this time, then who are the bad guys? Why would Tie fighters be firing on the Falcon if the Empire wasn't the bad guys?

It's a game of semantics, Empire = First Order, Rebel Alliance = The Resistance. Obviously The Empire exists in one form or another and continue to use ships, methods and Stormtroopers that we associate with the Empire, while the Resistance uses Jedi (presumably only Luke at this point) and familiar ships. Maybe it's not a Galactic Empire in control of the whole Galaxy, but they are the bad guys.

We still don't know for sure who/what is the good guys/bad guys. The First Order does appear to be built from the remnants of The Empire, but we do also see a Tie Fighter firing into a crowd of Stormtroopers in the second trailer, so it's not entirely clear how everything is going to line up.

My take is that the Empire and the Republic (new) are at peace with each other after decades of warfare, the First Order is a faction within the Empire who decides to begin the war again or restore purity to the Galaxy or some such nonsense, and that the Resistance is a group of volunteers who decide to break with the New Republic and fight the threat of the First Order.

Who's with me on wanting the unmolested and untouched and unedited versions of the classic trilogy on blu-ray now that Lucas has retired/no longer in charge of his studios?

Not me. The movies are what they are. I love some of the new changes, hate some of the others, but would never give up the overall improvements in sound and picture quality.

George could do anything he wanted to his movies and since they're not public domain and don't legally belong to the public or the fandom as a whole then what we say about the changes has no legally-binding effect, nor should it, really, as much as we (justifiably) don't like some of the things he's done. Star Wars is a trademark and a private creation, not a United Nations World Heritage site.

All of that said: some of George's changes are just damn stupid and insulting to the intelligence of the fans and they're more annoying and distracting than they are supposed improvements to the films. He shouldn't have done some of them, and not from a "hey, these are my movies as much as they are yours" perspective or an entitled "I demand you leave everything I watched as a child as they originally were or else you're History's Greatest Monster" attitude, but because the changes don't work, they look idiotic or they don't make any logical sense either out-of-universe or within it.

Just because you can change something and it's your own creation and right to do so doesn't mean your changes are good ideas.

Right on all counts.

You know.. as i grew up and got older and maybe a bit wiser that black & white attitude of the Jedi didn't make sense because it runs contrary to human (or alien) nature.

Jedi have absolutely no problem cutting someones limb off in battle, what's the difference to Force Lightning (which just induces pain but doesn't cripple for life)?

Jedi Mind Control, another very grey area.

The Jedi and Yoda in particular when it came to Luke's instruction were just great at advertising. They sold their product (however noble it might have been in the grander scheme of things) with a skill that many real-world companies would love to have because at one moment they'd be slicing enemies to pieces in a battle and the next they'd be telling initiates that peace and tranquility are the path to becoming an ideal Jedi Knight.

I don't mind that they had to resort to violence in war or personal self-defense to get things accomplished, but it is amusing that they're potrayed as a noble organization of peaceful warrior-diplomats in the Original Trilogy whereas the background established in the Prequels and The Clone Wars clearly shows they can kick the ass of just about anyone with little provocation and have a personal code and a set of Republic laws that covers and protects them in almost any situation.

Jedi were great at marketing. What can you say?

I do think the Jedi had real ideals and principles, but they were corrupted because they did not maintain their independence from the Republic. Once the Jedi became in essence the armed investigation/diplomacy/intervention wing of the Republic government, they headed down the path to their corruption and destruction.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Even Lucas as just a producer seems to not always work for a film's benefit. Apart from Indiana Jones, a lot of Lucas-produced stuff, even going back to the 80s-flopped in pretty bad ways (including some Lucas intended to originally direct-Radioland Murders, Red Tails, Willow etc.) although some have sort of become cult classics (Labyrinth, Tucker etc).

Also there's Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull, where it's been reported that part of the delay was that Lucas wouldn't really yield on the Aliens idea. Also some have speculated that the reason Last Crusade and Crystal Skull were more toned-down and relied partially on more slaptick is because Lucas had more control, while Spielberg wanted to move to more mature projects (Along with the ocassional blockbuster-Hook, Jurassic Park, etc...he sort of did do that).


BTW it was often stated around the time of the special editions, that Lucas wanted Irvin Kershner to direct Episode II, but Lucas kind of got used to directing again after TPM, and so decided to do the other two films himself.