Trek's lowest moment

[at Quark's]

The Federation contains many species. Human males need to adapt.

Judging from that last pic, Bajoran and Ferengi males, too

Seriously, though (and making the point somewhat more general than clothing alone). The Vulcans embrace logic, and would like the humans to embrace it, too. As that has not happened (yet), they seem more in the fashion of making (minor) allowances for the humans (and other species') 'illogic', than pursuing logic alone without any compromise, as the Borg would have done, were they in the Vulcan position.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Federation contains many species. Human males need to adapt.

Judging from that last pic, Bajoran and Ferengi males, too

Seriously, though (and making the point somewhat more general than clothing alone). The Vulcans embrace logic, and would like the humans to embrace it, too. As that has not happened (yet), they seem more in the fashion of making (minor) allowances for the humans (and other species') 'illogic', than pursuing logic alone without any compromise, as the Borg would have done, were they in the Vulcan position.

The thing you have to remember about Vulcans is they love to troll humans ( and all other "lesser" species).

 

[T'Girl]

Just saying that it would not be irreconcilable with known Vulcan behavior to make a 'sensible' choice in their clothing when working in an environment with a lot of young (human) male crewmembers.

Vulcan women apply makeup, dress in stylish robes and other outfits, and some have been known to wear their hair in elaborate ways. All of these things enhance their appearance. There's conjecture among some fans that T'Pol (like the actress who plays her) might have had her breasts augmented for the same reason, appearance.

Known Vulcan behavior.

 

[martok2112]

Although I think it is safe to say that Vulcans appreciate aesthetics, I don't think they're overly concerned about whether or not their females turn other species' younger males into horn-dogs. Known Vulcan behavior.

(remaining comments redacted.....could be too mistaken as combative)

 

[Dukhat]

That's ok. If a little gratuitous skin is more offensive than the massive flaws and irresponsible behaviors of the primary driving creative force (or at least, the one identified as such) behind the franchise in its most formative stages (TOS, TMP, and kick off of TNG), I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of "low point," which is what you seem intent on doing.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. To me, "Trek's lowest moment" (since the OP himself didn't define it) means something that the production did that they wouldn't have normally done if things were working out the way they wanted. You know, like pandering to the lowest common denominator by showing gratuitous sexual scenes just for ratings. That's my definition. Yours is obviously different. And that's OK. I probably shouldn't have faulted you for your opinion.

A discussion about a "low point" in a franchise that has spanned 50 years is always going to be based on "personal feelings." Not sure how to avoid that. You have your "personal feelings" about ass cracks. I have them about Roddenberry's lifestyle.

Fine. Then my personal feeling is that I don't like it when Star Trek feels the need to debase itself by that kind of pandering.

I guess that's the end of that discussion.

If you want it to be.

The scene most certainly happened. It was far more memorable than the T'Pol scene.

And yet I didn't remember it, and I've watched TNG far more than I've watched ENT. Guess it wasn't as memorable as you think. Maybe it was because we were all watching that episode at the time on a 13 inch standard definition TV...

What's the problem with seeing a nude back and an asscrack? Trek has rarely shied away from getting in as much nudity as they could slip past the censors. Be it Kirk's bare chest, side boob from Andrea, Picard's nude art model or Q popping up nude on the bridge.

There's nothing wrong with seeing bare backs and asscracks if there was a specific reason for it. Just like the decon gel scenes, it was nothing more than gratuitous displays for adolescents, IMHO.

Stop. You honestly believe that if the show were getting much better ratings that the T'Pol bareback scene wouldn't have happened?

Not quite. As I said, T'Pol's entire purpose for being on the show was for the sex factor. If the show hadn't been conceived by people with the mentality of a college frat boy, then that character would have been very different. Perhaps not even a female. So the issue is much deeper than just seeing her asscrack. But I've already stated this.

Things are becoming clearer.

Not really.

 

[USS KG5]

Troi had a few one-off relationships, but they never went anywhere. More than a few of the guys turned out to be gigantic dicks....

Explains her interest!

Thanks, I'm here all week, try the veal!

 

[T'Girl]

Bad boys are hot, nice guys ... meh.

 

[fireproof78]

What gives you that impression?

Troi never, ever, struck me as being treated a sexual person, at least from the audience perspective. From an in character perspective, it is difficult to judge because she really is not show in relationships that are not dysfunctional or broken up in some way. Her and Riker are estranged at first, and then she has the marriage with Wyatt in Haven. Then she becomes essentially the emotional abuse victim in another episode. And then there is the on again, off again thing with Worf.

In any case, regardless of what the characters were meant to be, T'Pol and 7 of 9 were certainly designed to appeal to the sexual attractions of the audience.

Your completely missing the point.

Your right to say troi was never suppose to be an obvious sex kitten, but that is exactly the point I was making.

Imagine the three were real people.

Troi was a very social person who pursued pleasurable experiences. She loves chocolate, she related to many people on emotional levels. She came from an upbringing where being naked was normal. She was a counselor it made perfect sense that in her role she would just to wear more expressive clothing.

Seven and tpol, were emotionally unavailable and would never of wore a catsuit if they understood the realities of wearing that type of clothing.

This completely ignoring the fundamentals of such characters is what made the decisions so incredibly stupid and a total low point for the show.

First of all, I am not missing the point. There is a character level of motivation, and there is a production level of character design.

Troi may have been a sexual person, but that was never how I responded to her or saw her in the show. She just struck me as a part of the crew, and a more empathetic person. I agree that as a counselor she can wear more expressive clothing, but she is also a Starfleet officer. I see very few times when not wearing a uniform would be appropriate.

And maybe that's the point. Her sexuality was not overt, but was just apart of her character. Which is fine, that it isn't in her face. 7 of 9 and T'Pol may not have been sexual (an argument can be made that she was more sexual than some of the other characters) but they were presented as sexual objects for the audience.

Unfortunately, when they are presented them as a sexual objects for the audience there is an undermining of character intention.

 

[Chronos]

Sub Rosa was really one big low moment. Crusher falling in love with a ghost candle... that's an idea that shouldn't have been done.

Code of Honor, as well. It's the most racist and sexist episode of Star Trek. I don't know how they didn't catch it during the pre-production stage.

 

[Granola Gwen]

I haven't seen a majority of TOS yet, so here are some of my TNG thoughts. Lwaxana having her wedding and going naked as the Betazoid tradition in front of everyone. Like man, poor Picard. Conspiracy didn't need that overly gory scene with the phasers.

 

[USS KG5]

Sub Rosa was really one big low moment. Crusher falling in love with a ghost candle... that's an idea that shouldn't have been done.

On the other hand it is, like "Spock's Brain", so bad its actually quite enjoyable.

Lets face it, whatever they were smoking in the writers room when they came up with "Crusher flicks her bean while fantasising about the guy who was nailing her Gran" we all want some.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

The thing about Code Of Honor if you read the script to it it doesn't mention anything about the culture being African influenced in any way. So this is something that is somewhat bizarre to me.

And personally, I don't really see how that episode is racist. Not all cultures share the same values.

For me it's when Sisko had garak kill the Romulan official in order to bring the Romulans into the Dominion war, all on his own.

And giving Data the on off switch to his emotions. While I am so envious of having that ability, it is just not realistic because we humans can not turn off our emotions like that, but we can learn how to control them and on how to act on them.

The most asinine line to me is "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one" and Spock admiring Socialism. That line ignores the concept of liberty and individual rights which I'm not sure he had any concept of, at least to my knowledge.

When Data was about ready to kill that trader.

Spock's Brain.

McCoy's very rude treatment of Spock in TMP.

When kirk was resurrected as a borg in that novel.

The destruction of the Defiant only to bring back the Defiant. I wanted to see a brand new ship myself.

 

[T'Girl]

And personally, I don't really see how that episode is racist

Neither do I. I mean every single planet has to have governing officials who are basically "white?" I though what little we saw of their culture was interesting, and I personally like the revelation that the women were the ones actually in charge, had multiple husbands and selected one of them to do the administration of the planet.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Sub Rosa was really one big low moment. Crusher falling in love with a ghost candle... that's an idea that shouldn't have been done.

On the other hand it is, like "Spock's Brain", so bad its actually quite enjoyable.

Lets face it, whatever they were smoking in the writers room when they came up with "Crusher flicks her bean while fantasising about the guy who was nailing her Gran" we all want some.

Spock's Brain to me is like a fat slab of mesquite smoked ribs.

You know they are horrible in every sense of the word and there is no redeeming quality whatsoever in eating them......but they're just so damn delicious you can't help yourself.

That's how I feel every time "Spock's Brain" comes on. Every rational impulse says "This isn't good at all....turn the channel" Yet I just can't NOT watch it.

 

[Nightdiamond]

And personally, I don't really see how that episode is racist

Neither do I. I mean every single planet has to have governing officials who are basically "white?" I though what little we saw of their culture was interesting, and I personally like the revelation that the women were the ones actually in charge, had multiple husbands and selected one of them to do the administration of the planet.

I see both sides on it. I see where they were going with it-- why not, for once (and more), have a mostly black (or people of other different races,) planet where you can see a broader range of characters? And something interesting?

Usually it was the exact opposite, an all white looking culture, or have a sprinkling of people of different colors among a mainly white looking culture which looked really artificial.

The claim is the episode had the "primitive" africa view, with Picard and crew being patronizing towards their "backwards" behavior. And some other things.

"You can create people without a soul??"

In some ways it was a well meaning and good idea. In others it was badly thought out.

On the other hand it is, like "Spock's Brain", so bad its actually quite enjoyable.

Lets face it, whatever they were smoking in the writers room when they came up with "Crusher flicks her bean while fantasising about the guy who was nailing her Gran" we all want some.

Spock's Brain to me is like a fat slab of mesquite smoked ribs.

You know they are horrible in every sense of the word and there is no redeeming quality whatsoever in eating them......but they're just so damn delicious you can't help yourself.

That's how I feel every time "Spock's Brain" comes on. Every rational impulse says "This isn't good at all....turn the channel" Yet I just can't NOT watch it.

Sometimes an episode of something is so bad you enjoy watching it, just to see how bad it is.

Have to admit it does damage the storyline credibility a bit, but not that much. I don't think even the episode took itself seriously.

It was just weird to watch.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Conspiracy didn't need that overly gory scene with the phasers.

I fully support Picard and Riker's decision to kill the spawnmother creature (let's face it, Remmick himself was already dead), but yeah, they could have just set phasers to vaporize.

 

[at Quark's]

For me it's when Sisko had garak kill the Romulan official in order to bring the Romulans into the Dominion war, all on his own.

Well yes, it's cheating and murdering. But it is done in a desparate situation in which the war seemed lost without the Romulan aid. And it is brought in a very morally conflicted way. Sisko isn't happy with it, but in his own words "Garak was right about one thing -- a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I'll learn to live with it. Because I can live with it".

Kirk (TWOK) on the other hand, reprogrammed the Kobiyashi Maru scenario simply because "he doesn't believe in a no-win scenario". Instead of getting expelled from the Academy for cheating, he gets a commendation for "original thinking". When he later tells about it, he still seems to be proud about it.

While I can appreciate the "original thinking" part to a certain extent, what disturbs me in that scene is :

1) it is a patently false belief. Some "scenarios" really ARE no-win. Kirk himself learns this basic fact in his later life a few times the hard way.

2) He had no 'good' reason to cheat. All that was really harmed by loosing the first time was his ego. So he cheated for purely selfish reasons. I would have admired it though, had he really been in that situation and he had found such a "cheating" way out, thereby saving his crew.

Though Sisko's action are 'worse' (murder vs. cheating), in a way I still find Kirks action morally more despicable. Perhaps I see that TWOK elevator scene as one of the low points of Trek, even though the film is still great.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sisko did some questionable things, yes. But he was clearly tormented about what he had to do.

Dukat, on the other hand? He ENJOYED what he did. He relished in being evil. There's the difference.

And Kirk? He was absolutely right: There is no such thing as a no-win scenario. The whole point of the program is to deliberately fix things so the cadet always loses. That never happens in real life. THIS is as much cheating as anything Kirk did.

And in a very real sense, Kirk's supposed cheating is no less a solution to Kobayashi Maru than any other. Think about it: Is Kirk just supposed to shut up, keep his head down, and admit that he's doomed to lose? No? Alright then. The very fact that he thought of an unorthodox solution to the problem, is in itself a solution. It may be technically cheating, but at least it showed that Kirk does not accept defeat. They wanted to know cadets' reaction to failure? Well, they got it.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

And personally, I don't really see how that episode is racist

Neither do I. I mean every single planet has to have governing officials who are basically "white?" I though what little we saw of their culture was interesting, and I personally like the revelation that the women were the ones actually in charge, had multiple husbands and selected one of them to do the administration of the planet.

I see both sides on it. I see where they were going with it-- why not, for once (and more), have a mostly black (or people of other different races,) planet where you can see a broader range of characters? And something interesting?

Usually it was the exact opposite, an all white looking culture, or have a sprinkling of people of different colors among a mainly white looking culture which looked really artificial.

The claim is the episode had the "primitive" africa view, with Picard and crew being patronizing towards their "backwards" behavior. And some other things.



In some ways it was a well meaning and good idea. In others it was badly thought out.

I think the problem is that the episode isn't itself racist, but the decision to cast the aliens as all-black was spearheaded by the director, and he was pretty obviously racist?

The aliens were not written as black.

 

[FormerLurker]

to atQuark's:

According to the dialog, he actually didn't cheat until his third time through, so he went back to it once to see if he could beat it having lost once, and in so doing found out the test was programmed to make certain he failed no matter what. That was what prompted him to go back one more time and cheat his way out.

Spelled out onscreen in ST'09 for us lackwits, of course. (badly done. Not in execution, in thinking it needed spelled out)