Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinity

[at Quark's]

We all know the galaxy is a huge place with an extremely long history, and that the Federation is a relative newcomer. In some episodes, the crew uncovers evidence of advanced civilizations that existed in their territory thousands or even millions of years ago.

In most of these cases, such civilizations are shown to be/ believed to be extinct, or collapsed and reverted to barbarism, or 'ascended to a higher plane', or they just went isolationist. But if even only one of these ancient civilizations would have gone none of these routes, and just had been keeping developing along more conventional lines -even if only at a slow pace-, it would be so technologically advanced by now that if it wanted to, say, secure any territory from the Federation, there would be very little the Federation could do to stop them. Anything it could make would probably immeasurably outclass anything the Federation or one of her opponents of comparable level (Romulans, Klingons, or even the Dominion) could manufacture.

I'm not even thinking Borg level of technology, who seem to still have to rely on raw power to overwhelm their opponents, but more like the Voth level, who simply switch off any Federation technology they don't want to interfere with their plans.

So why is it that the Federation, and the Rommies and such civilizations seem to run the Alpha Quadrant ? Are all such "superior civilizations" that existed at one point in time in their neighborhood extinct or collapsed, or content to stay hidden behind the curtains and let the youngsters run the show?

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

But if even only one of these ancient civilizations would have gone none of these routes, and just had been keeping developing along more conventional lines -even if only at a slow pace-, it would be so technologically advanced by now that if it wanted to, say, secure any territory from the Federation

I think this is the case with the Metrons from Arena, protected by advanced technology, they could secure their space from Federation or Gorn encroachment.

If there was a truly old civilization that was interested in a large territory, then they already would have done it millennia ago. The area of the galaxy that holds the Federation would have been theirs prior to the creation of the Federation.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

So why is it that the Federation, and the Rommies and such civilizations seem to run the Alpha Quadrant ? Are all such "superior civilizations" that existed at one point in time in their neighborhood extinct or collapsed, or content to stay hidden behind the curtains and let the youngsters run the show?

Yes.

 

[martok2112]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

Because The Federation Struck Back.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

My admittedly complete speculation: A few of these empires DID survive and dominate the local area of the universe, and had technology such that, when conflict arose between them, they pursued a temporal cold war against one another instead of engaging directly. And each time this happened, in each cycle of updated timelines, they ended up leaving a little more room, a little more room, a little more room, until they left enough room for the Alpha Quadrant Powers combined to form a new faction in their conflicts - a faction that, being made up of many many species that had learned to work together rather than the monolithic civilizations of the other powers, had the diplomatic skills necessary to ultimately bring the fighting to a close.

To go further, I suspect the Kelvans of being one of those empires, and the Preservers as being one that saw the potential for peace and dropped out of the fighting early to turn their attention to seeding humans, Vulcans, etc, to help push things along for our heroes and other allies.

Or... not.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

So why is it that the Federation, and the Rommies and such civilizations seem to run the Alpha Quadrant ? Are all such "superior civilizations" that existed at one point in time in their neighborhood extinct or collapsed, or content to stay hidden behind the curtains and let the youngsters run the show?

One could suggest that some of these 'super' races would look upon the Federation/Romulans/Klingons, to use your word, as 'youngsters'.

Perhaps once a few civs have reached such power simple notions of 'conquest' become obsolete to them. In fact, now that I think on it, many of the highly advanced species ARE depicted as not requiring starships or resources the way others do.

For all we know there is a species or two, known to the Federation, that have more or less said:

"Oh...hi...yeah we know you are humans, we have been monitoring your planet from the other side of the quadrant for a few centuries now...yes hello captain...Enterprise you say? Very cute, we used to use those star-boats or whatever you call them a few millenia ago..."

 

[Lance]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

So why is it that the Federation, and the Rommies and such civilizations seem to run the Alpha Quadrant ? Are all such "superior civilizations" that existed at one point in time in their neighborhood extinct or collapsed, or content to stay hidden behind the curtains and let the youngsters run the show?

One could suggest that some of these 'super' races would look upon the Federation/Romulans/Klingons, to use your word, as 'youngsters'.

Perhaps once a few civs have reached such power simple notions of 'conquest' become obsolete to them. In fact, now that I think on it, many of the highly advanced species ARE depicted as not requiring starships or resources the way others do.

For all we know there is a species or two, known to the Federation, that have more or less said:

"Oh...hi...yeah we know you are humans, we have been monitoring your planet from the other side of the quadrant for a few centuries now...yes hello captain...Enterprise you say? Very cute, we used to use those star-boats or whatever you call them a few millenia ago..."

This is basically Trelane. Or Q.

I'd favor the theory that any civilization which is so old and so advanced, would probably have been and gone through their 'empire building' phase many millennia before humans even began to venture out into the cosmos. The likes of the Q Continuum had to start somewhere after all, and as others have said, you have species such as the Metrons or the Organians, who are at a sufficiently advanced level that they effectively look down on all this territory-building stuff as being quaint and old-fashioned (and might even be several evolutionary steps up the ladder than even the Q). Each of their civilizations probably went through all that and came out the other side as higher beings who no longer care about such piddling matters.

And only *after* all that come the humans, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians... species with a relatively small amount of interstellar experience, and whose brains are still wrapped around the notion of boundries and conflicts and 'territorial imperatives'. And the higher species look upon them with feigned disinterest at best, and pity at worst.

 

[at Quark's]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

This is basically Trelane. Or Q.

I'd favor the theory that any civilization which is so old and so advanced, would probably have been and gone through their 'empire building' phase many millennia before humans even began to venture out into the cosmos. The likes of the Q Continuum had to start somewhere after all, and as others have said, you have species such as the Metrons or the Organians, who are at a sufficiently advanced level that they effectively look down on all this territory-building stuff as being quaint and old-fashioned (and might even be several evolutionary steps up the ladder than even the Q). Each of their civilizations probably went through all that and came out the other side as higher beings who no longer care about such piddling matters.

And only *after* all that come the humans, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians... species with a relatively small amount of interstellar experience, and whose brains are still wrapped around the notion of boundries and conflicts and 'territorial imperatives'. And the higher species look upon them with feigned disinterest at best, and pity at worst.

In fact, I think that would be a plausible development for old civilizations. (Even though I'm a bit hesitant about the 'evolving into higher beings' part that seems to come almost automatically with old civilizations in Trek).

What I don't find plausible, though, is that every last one of those ancient civilizations would evolve like that (short of going extinct or fall back to the stone age or some such fate). It would only take one civilization with tech millennia more advanced, but with a mindset stuck into 'territorial mode' to take any territory they'd like (or even the entire quadrant) like all regular players weren't even there (or prevented the likes of the Federation from having formed in the first place as one poster pointed out).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

This is basically Trelane. Or Q.

I'd favor the theory that any civilization which is so old and so advanced, would probably have been and gone through their 'empire building' phase many millennia before humans even began to venture out into the cosmos. The likes of the Q Continuum had to start somewhere after all, and as others have said, you have species such as the Metrons or the Organians, who are at a sufficiently advanced level that they effectively look down on all this territory-building stuff as being quaint and old-fashioned (and might even be several evolutionary steps up the ladder than even the Q). Each of their civilizations probably went through all that and came out the other side as higher beings who no longer care about such piddling matters.

And only *after* all that come the humans, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians... species with a relatively small amount of interstellar experience, and whose brains are still wrapped around the notion of boundries and conflicts and 'territorial imperatives'. And the higher species look upon them with feigned disinterest at best, and pity at worst.

In fact, I think that would be a plausible development for old civilizations. (Even though I'm a bit hesitant about the 'evolving into higher beings' part that seems to come almost automatically with old civilizations in Trek).

What I don't find plausible, though, is that every last one of those ancient civilizations would evolve like that (short of going extinct or fall back to the stone age or some such fate). It would only take one civilization with tech millennia more advanced, but with a mindset stuck into 'territorial mode' to take any territory they'd like (or even the entire quadrant) like all regular players weren't even there (or prevented the likes of the Federation from having formed in the first place as one poster pointed out).

It would, but apparently that hasn't happened or one of the more advanced races slapped them down when they tried. The Alpha Quadrant or at least the area we've seen is a region where the older species have retreated or evolved and are content to let the younger ones have their day. Perhaps one or more of the "old ones" keeps the more aggressive types out of the area.

 

[Lance]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

This is basically Trelane. Or Q.

I'd favor the theory that any civilization which is so old and so advanced, would probably have been and gone through their 'empire building' phase many millennia before humans even began to venture out into the cosmos. The likes of the Q Continuum had to start somewhere after all, and as others have said, you have species such as the Metrons or the Organians, who are at a sufficiently advanced level that they effectively look down on all this territory-building stuff as being quaint and old-fashioned (and might even be several evolutionary steps up the ladder than even the Q). Each of their civilizations probably went through all that and came out the other side as higher beings who no longer care about such piddling matters.

And only *after* all that come the humans, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians... species with a relatively small amount of interstellar experience, and whose brains are still wrapped around the notion of boundries and conflicts and 'territorial imperatives'. And the higher species look upon them with feigned disinterest at best, and pity at worst.

In fact, I think that would be a plausible development for old civilizations. (Even though I'm a bit hesitant about the 'evolving into higher beings' part that seems to come almost automatically with old civilizations in Trek).

What I don't find plausible, though, is that every last one of those ancient civilizations would evolve like that (short of going extinct or fall back to the stone age or some such fate). It would only take one civilization with tech millennia more advanced, but with a mindset stuck into 'territorial mode' to take any territory they'd like (or even the entire quadrant) like all regular players weren't even there (or prevented the likes of the Federation from having formed in the first place as one poster pointed out).

It would, but apparently that hasn't happened or one of the more advanced races slapped them down when they tried. The Alpha Quadrant or at least the area we've seen is a region where the older species have retreated or evolved and are content to let the younger ones have their day. Perhaps one or more of the "old ones" keeps the more aggressive types out of the area.

And perhaps the Founders are just such a species? Sure they're from the Gamma Quadrant rather than the Alpha. But if the supposition is made that when, many years ago, back when they were a curious species who explored the galaxy just as Starfleet does... then suppose, maybe they may even have even been solids at some even earlier point in their evolution. And if the becoming 'liquid' was some kind of later evolutionary stage, then they fit the bill. A species so old that other Gamma Quadrant aliens consider them to be a myth, and yet they sit at the very heart of a dominion whose operation is very much one of control and conquer.

( I know I hypothesise here, as there is no evidence given that Changelings were ever anything other than liquid. But, as far as I recall, there was never any evidence given that they may not have been solid at some point, either... they never explored them in that great a detail, so it's a reasonable jumping off point. )

In terms of the established species, the Metrons are the closest who fit the bill. We're introduced to them through the Enterprise and the Gorn ship transgressing their territory, which infers an imperialistic mindset, and they intervene not necessarily to test the lesser species, but simply as a means of eliminating them. Gene Coon's script does in fact suggest that had Kirk killed the Gorn, then the Metrons would've reneged on their own terms and destroyed both ships; and that the Metrons are therefore being duplicitous (they only change their mind once Kirk shows his opponent mercy, which causes them to re-evaluate humanities potential).

 

[Anwar]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

It was explained in "The Chase" that the Progenitors found no other life in the Galaxy aside from their own so they seeded many worlds with their DNA.

So most likely the species out there all rose in stages, and the previous generation before the Humans/Vulcans/Klingons all either destroyed themselves or wiped each other out.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

It was explained in "The Chase" that the Progenitors found no other life in the Galaxy aside from their own so they seeded many worlds with their DNA.

So most likely the species out there all rose in stages, and the previous generation before the Humans/Vulcans/Klingons all either destroyed themselves or wiped each other out.

We've met the previous generation.

 

[at Quark's]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

It was explained in "The Chase" that the Progenitors found no other life in the Galaxy aside from their own so they seeded many worlds with their DNA.

So most likely the species out there all rose in stages, and the previous generation before the Humans/Vulcans/Klingons all either destroyed themselves or wiped each other out.

But that race did so 4 billion years ago; that would be the entirety of evolution on our planet. If they had no controlling mechanism as to when the intelligent races would hatch, it would be unlikely in the extreme that there would still be such clearly discernible 'waves' after 4 billion years. I think that even would hold for the very first "wave". Let's say the minimum time for evolution to run its course from the DNA seeding instant to a fully sentient race is roughly 500 million years (just a number I pull out of the air), who's to prevent a tiny difference of 1 million years between the very first race and the second?

The Alpha Quadrant or at least the area we've seen is a region where the older species have retreated or evolved and are content to let the younger ones have their day. Perhaps one or more of the "old ones" keeps the more aggressive types out of the area.

Perhaps. But if so, they certainly don't seem to interfere when an agressive race commits some "lesser" evil, like enslaving the population of a weaker planet, or so. Would they interfere if the Borg decided to launch an all-out attack on the AQ ?

Or would they have a prime directive of their own, that they only interfere when a civilization of their own level is meddling with lesser civs ?

 

[Shawnster]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

It's interesting how everyone in Star Trek is at the same tech level. Vulcans and Bajorans were star faring civilizations long before humans discovered flight, yet they are no more advanced now than anyone else. It was nice of the Vulcans to slow their advancement and allow humans to catch up technologically. Maybe they "uplifted" humans more than just warp technology.

And Bajorans... for all that tech advancement they had... it didn't help them during the Cardassian occupation. Were the Cardassians just as tech advanced as the Bajorans? The Cardassians turned very militaristic. If any advanced civilization was to try to build a vast empire, it'd be the Cardassians.

We've never seen a galactic civilization that's, oh, say, 300 years more advanced than our Starfleet heroes. We've seen individuals such as Trelane, Metrons, First Federation, the Cytherians, etc... but we've never seen a multi-star system civilization full of advanced tech. Those races I just mentioned may fit that description, but we only saw 1 representative and they've always been a one-shot alien never to be seen again.

We've occasionally seen some piece of technology that is more advanced than Starfleet, such as slipstream technology or space folding technology, but these are also isolated one-offs. They show a comparable civilization to the Federation with one piece of advanced tech that seems to exist in isolation.

It was nice of all those civilizations more advanced than humanity to either disappear or slow down and wait for us to catch up.

 

[at Quark's]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

It's interesting how everyone in Star Trek is at the same tech level.

As http://www.ditl.org/article-page.php?ArticleID=19&ListID=Articles would point out, of course the real reason is dramatic story telling ... before he proceeds to give an in-universe explanation of how this could come to be

We've never seen a galactic civilization that's, oh, say, 300 years more advanced than our Starfleet heroes. We've seen individuals such as Trelane, Metrons, First Federation, the Cytherians, etc... but we've never seen a multi-star system civilization full of advanced tech. Those races I just mentioned may fit that description, but we only saw 1 representative and they've always been a one-shot alien never to be seen again.

Of course, it's not truly possible to gauge how much more advanced a civilization is than starfleet in number of years. That could only really be done backwards and even then it depends upon the perspective taken ('civilization such and so posessed technology in the 24th century roughly equivalent to a level that was only reached by Starfleet 300 years later'). But, if e.g. Trelane is the product of a civilization with superior technology, and not just some native superbeing, I would estimate that civilization to be more (and I think much more) than a thousand years ahead, not just 300. Just a gut feeling.

When the Federation first encountered the Dominion, they seemed technologically significantly superior, perhaps by a century or so. But that difference rapidly melted away during the course of the war. At the end of it, it seemed the Federation was at an equal tech footing on many levels, just still having major disadvantages in speed of shipbuilding capabilities and personnel. So? Was the technology of the dominion further advanced or just unfamiliar at first ?

Perhaps the Borg (TNG) would be a good depiction of a "civilization" (even if a pathological one) with (combat) capabilities about 300 years in advance of the Federation, given the rate at which Federation technology seems to develop. Their technological capabilities seem far, far superior to the Federation, but not incomparably so.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

It's supposed to be the Human trait - we're innovative and we cross-pollinate ideas. Just like the Romulans are devious, the Vulcans are logical, Ferengi are money-centric, etc. The Vulcans were more advanced than us, but had stagnated due to lack of creativity. Humans took one look at their tech on the Internet and said some random mess like, yes, but how would Homer Simpson use this, and the Vulcans chittered among themselves and said, "whaaa? Whaaa whaa?", and when they looked again, the Humans had increased the efficiency of their impulse drives AND made the universe's first warp-powered donut machine.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

Perhaps. But if so, they certainly don't seem to interfere when an agressive race commits some "lesser" evil, like enslaving the population of a weaker planet, or so. Would they interfere if the Borg decided to launch an all-out attack on the AQ ?

Or would they have a prime directive of their own, that they only interfere when a civilization of their own level is meddling with lesser civs ?

They seem to follow the Old Timer Directive.

"You kids, keep off of my lawn!!"

It's interesting how everyone in Star Trek is at the same tech level. Vulcans and Bajorans were star faring civilizations long before humans discovered flight, yet they are no more advanced now than anyone else. It was nice of the Vulcans to slow their advancement and allow humans to catch up technologically. Maybe they "uplifted" humans more than just warp technology.

And Bajorans... for all that tech advancement they had... it didn't help them during the Cardassian occupation. Were the Cardassians just as tech advanced as the Bajorans? The Cardassians turned very militaristic. If any advanced civilization was to try to build a vast empire, it'd be the Cardassians.

Civilization ebbs and flows. Sometimes there are setbacks. Vulcan was nuked back to the "stone age" at least once and had to slowly rebuild. I suspect Bajor also had a setback that allowed the Cardassians to conquer them.

Earth is a late comer to the Galactic playground. Almost everyone was more advanced. Through strategic alliances and the creation of the Federation it managed to level the playing field.

 

[Ithekro]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

I seem to recall a mention of the Vegan Tyrany, or something like that, that was encounted early in Earth's or perhaps one of the other founding Federation races dealing with empire building. It was some large empire that was in collapsing when the newer powers started growing. The more advanced weapons on the Andorian and Vulcan ships might have been from fighting them.

Some novels suggest the Klingons and Romulas had been fighting another species or two that were on the far side of their empires from Federation space and keeping them busy for decades at a time. For the Klingons it was supposedly the reason they didn't stop to deal with the Federation until Kirk and Pike's time. For the Romulans it was why they hadn't bothered with the Federation for nearly a century at a time twice.

 

[Timewalker]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

It could be a case of some species being very advanced, but so unlike the ones we're familiar with that they literally can't think of anything they'd have in common with them, so they ignore them.

Do humans care about the politics and territorial issues of anonymous groups of ants? No. Do humans care which specific honeybee ends up as a particular hive's queen? No.

So why should non-corporeal species care about the affairs of corporeal, organic beings such as humans, Vulcans, Klingons, etc.?

Might various non-corporeal species care about the politics and other concerns of other non-corporeal species? Possibly, because they're more alike to each other than they are to us, and there may very well be all kinds of interesting stuff going on among empires whose existence we can't even perceive.

 

[Timo]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

I don't see the problem with the core issue here. The UFP exists, yes. But it has only existed for an eyeblink. There should be nothing statistically untoward about there every now and then emerging a spatially and temporally localized bubble where primitive entities like the UFP, the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire can be born and then grow, in synchrony because they rub against each other.

Sure, there are also other types of times in the galactic history: at times, the entire Milky Way may be governed by just one political entity, at others it's all fallow and starflight is an extreme rarity. Indeed, whenever a single great power emerges, its fates necessarily synchronize the pulsation of galactic history, at least for a short while.

A local great power may decide to hold on to its position for a long time, and succeed. But it won't stay there forever, and its ambition probably drives it towards galactic dominance eventually. And then the same ambition must drive it beyond mere galactic domination, at an ever-increasing rate of evolution. Ascending to control the galaxy with godlike powers must be appealing for a short while, but then it's time to move on to bigger things. And even while that process is still underway, all sorts of weeds can grow.

Humans and their allies have explored either 11% or 19% of the galaxy to unknown accuracy by the time of TNG. They could easily have missed the true nature of political power structures there at the time. It does not follow that the local bubble where a dozen upstart empires are in a synchronized rat race would be an improbable or atypical part of that nature - or that it would be a probable and common one. It's just one of the many possibilities that can fit within the time and space of galactic history.

Timo Saloniemi