Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinity

[137th Gebirg]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

Some novels suggest the Klingons and Romulas had been fighting another species or two that were on the far side of their empires from Federation space and keeping them busy for decades at a time. For the Klingons it was supposedly the reason they didn't stop to deal with the Federation until Kirk and Pike's time. For the Romulans it was why they hadn't bothered with the Federation for nearly a century at a time twice.

In the FASAverse and several novels they called them the "Kinshaya", or "Demon Warriors". Canonically, there had been several oblique references to an aggressive warrior race called the "Hur'q" that assaulted and possibly even enslaved portions of the Klingon civilization for centuries. After overthrowing the them, the Klingons stole their ships and advanced tech and set out to build their empire. The D-7's and K'T'Inga's were apparently based off these designs, which is why they always looked like that from the 22nd to 24th centuries and beyond.

As for the Romulans, the only ones I know of that gave them a bloody nose were the Borg in pre-TNG - early 24th century times. I think they were pretty small and isolated other than that - certainly more so than the Klingons. Every map chart set ever produced shows the Romulans to be the smallest of the "big three" - at least during the 23rd century, and not counting groups like Tholians, Gorn, Cardassians, etc., who were all quite small, relatively speaking.

 

[The Overlord]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

The problem is there are empires in the Star Trek Universe, but we hardly know anything about them.

What exactly does the Klingons or the Romulans do with a planet they conquered? How big are their empires? What planets are part of these empires?

Really the only conquered planet we have seen in depth is Bajor. We at least know how the Cardassians treat the people they conquered.

 

[E-DUB]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

The Dominion may have had superior technology, but their assault on the Federation was doomed because they had to "invade" through a single chokepoint, the Bajoran wormhole.

Even recruiting local allies couldn't assure victory.

Also the Federation has an advantage in that free men (and Women) will fight harder to preserve their freedom than conscripts will fight for the greater glory of the Galactic Poobah, or whoever the "imperial opposition" is.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

If there was a truly old civilization that was interested in a large territory, then they already would have done it millennia ago. The area of the galaxy that holds the Federation would have been theirs prior to the creation of the Federation.

This would be the correct answer.

 

[E-DUB]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

Oh, and I believe that reference to the "Vegan Tyranny" came from one of Blish's novelizations, not an on-screen reference. Besides, carnivores would beat Vegans every time.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

[Klingons Romulans] How big are their empires? What planets are part of these empires?

A Empire wouldn't have to be large to be militarily powerful, the home islands of Japan are relatively small in area, but the Japanese Empire was quite strong. And while I believe the Klingons to be the equal in size (or bigger) to the Federation, I've always thought the Romulans as being somewhat small.

Also the Federation has an advantage in that free men (and Women) will fight harder to preserve their freedom than conscripts will fight for the greater glory of the Galactic Poobah ...

That doesn't follow. Certainly the Klingon warriors were "patriotic" to the Empire, and with the example of Kor were willing to lay down their lives to achieve victory. History has shown that conscripts are perfectly capable of defeating volunteers.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

The Dominion may have had superior technology, but their assault on the Federation was doomed because they had to "invade" through a single chokepoint, the Bajoran wormhole.

Even recruiting local allies couldn't assure victory.

Also the Federation has an advantage in that free men (and Women) will fight harder to preserve their freedom than conscripts will fight for the greater glory of the Galactic Poobah, or whoever the "imperial opposition" is.

I would say the Jem'Hadar were a hell of a lot more committed to the war than most Starfleet officers...

If the Federation's political make-up gave them any advantage at all, it was in their commanders, not their foot soldiers. The Vorta certainly showed deficiencies on more than one occasion, both in loyalty and strategy. But I'm not sure they were really any more deficient than Starfleet itself...

As to why there aren't ancient, conquering empires, I would also point out this: Imperialism isn't baked into the dna of every single species in existence - maybe the ones that have survived really don't care about any planets other than their own.

 

[E-DUB]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

The Klingons were fighting for the KLINGON empire, you don't see "subject" races on their ships. In fact, you don't see the subject races period. The Jem Hadar were a "special case" being bred for combat.

Still, you're right. Even though the prey is running for its life and the predator is merely running for its dinner, sometimes the predator is faster.

 

[Orphalesion]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

First Federation

I immediately thought of the First Federation when I read the thread title.

Wasn't the implication that they are a whole civilization and that their giant bubble-balloon of a spaceship was many times more powerful than (at least) Kirk's Enterprise?

They seem to just regard "our" Federation/Klingons/Romulans etc as too much a hassle to deal with.
Of course another reason they have never re-appeared is likely that the writers are worried people would get the Federation and the First Federation mixed up.

And I agree that we know next to nothing about the Klingon and Romulan Empires (all those maps are non-canon and 2D, and thus useless anyway)
With the Romulans you can easily assume that they just exterminate or enslave everything they conquer.

With the Klingons however....that would not mesh with how sympathetic they are portrayed in the shows. What I could see is that they exterminated/enslaved other races in their very early days (long before the Kirk or Archer eras) and gradually did away with those practices (perhaps as the concept of Honour became more important in their society?) Now they might have a more feudal approach to governing their "subject species"

As to why we never see non Klingons on Klingon ships... that can be explained in a number of ways.

1) Most of the time we hardly see any alien background characters on Federation ships either and we have never had a series set on a Klingon vessel. Maybe if we did that vessel would have a few non-Klingon crew members.

2) All Klingon subject races are demilitarized and forbidden from joining the Klingon army. Since the warrior aspect of their culture seems to steadily grow more important to the Klingons it would seem realistic that they guard it as a privilege.

Of course a missed opportunity would have been to "reveal" that the TOS "Klingons" were one of the member races of the Klingon Empire that perhaps lived closest to the Federation and so had the most dealings with them.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

Of course another reason they have never re-appeared is likely that the writers are worried people would get the Federation and the First Federation mixed up.

Any time they come up, I feel the need to reiterate my pet theory about them, so apologies if you've seen this before, but I'm doing my darnedest to brainwash everyone, so bear with me: The First Federation and the Federation merged between TOS and TNG, and they are where some of the ship tech upgrades came from, as well as the Betazoids, Trill, and other species that everyone seems to take for granted in TNG but that we never saw in TOS.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

According to Enterprise, Klingons had photon torpedoes and the Vulcans had tractor beams.

The Borg also destroyed a lot of cultures too.

The Tkon Empire existed 600,000 years ago.

The Founders Dominion also destroyed a lot of cultures.

 

[Orphalesion]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

Of course another reason they have never re-appeared is likely that the writers are worried people would get the Federation and the First Federation mixed up.

Any time they come up, I feel the need to reiterate my pet theory about them, so apologies if you've seen this before, but I'm doing my darnedest to brainwash everyone, so bear with me: The First Federation and the Federation merged between TOS and TNG, and they are where some of the ship tech upgrades came from, as well as the Betazoids, Trill, and other species that everyone seems to take for granted in TNG but that we never saw in TOS.

No, have never heard that theory. Quite interesting! That could be why it's sometimes called the "United" Federation of Planets (redundant much) it was created from a union of the First Federation and the Federation of Planets.

Of course a lot can be explained by the decades between TOS and TNG, look at how much can change in just 10 years.
Also from what we have seen in TNG and DS9 I don't actually think that Trill is a member of the Federation. Judging from Ro Laren it seems you don't have to be a citizen of a member world/species in order to join Starfleet.

 

[Ithekro]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

Or it happened during the Five Year Mission, which changed Enterprise from being an Earth ship (UESPA) to being a Federation ship.

 

[Overgeeked]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

Well, look at the Breen. They went from barely mentioned to major threat in a few episodes at the end of DS9. The prevailing theory is space is big and the Fed accounts for 5% or less of the known galaxy.

As of TNG's "Neutral Zone", the Romulans disappeared for 53 years, so between 2311-2364

 

[Tim Walker]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

Some novels suggest the Klingons and Romulas had been fighting another species or two that were on the far side of their empires from Federation space and keeping them busy for decades at a time. For the Klingons it was supposedly the reason they didn't stop to deal with the Federation until Kirk and Pike's time. For the Romulans it was why they hadn't bothered with the Federation for nearly a century at a time twice.

In the FASAverse and several novels they called them the "Kinshaya",

Indeed, this was my theory.

 

[E-DUB]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

I always felt that the whole "UESPA/Federation" thing was explainable by analogy to an American army unit being detailed to the UN. Sure the Federation HQ is on Earth, but the UN HQ is in America. (This explanation also covers the whole "only 12 like her in the fleet" business, roo.)

 

[Tim Walker]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

I don't think the Federation would exist if there were more powerful empires around. Consider the Dominion War and the Borg incursions.

 

[publiusr]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

Some novels suggest the Klingons and Romulas had been fighting another species or two that were on the far side of their empires from Federation space and keeping them busy for decades at a time. For the Klingons it was supposedly the reason they didn't stop to deal with the Federation until Kirk and Pike's time. For the Romulans it was why they hadn't bothered with the Federation for nearly a century at a time twice.

In the FASAverse and several novels they called them the "Kinshaya", or "Demon Warriors". Canonically, there had been several oblique references to an aggressive warrior race called the "Hur'q" that assaulted and possibly even enslaved portions of the Klingon civilization for centuries.

I remember the FASA manuals talking about a threat coreward or spinward. AS TNG came out, I just assumed this new threat were the Cardassians.

I'd like to see more on the First Federation.

 

[Shawnster]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

I definitely felt the E-D reflected First Federation technology. I never thought about species like the Trill or Betazoids being from the First Federation, though.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Why aren't there any more powerful "empires" in Federation vicinit

I definitely felt the E-D reflected First Federation technology. I never thought about species like the Trill or Betazoids being from the First Federation, though.

In what way?