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The Rank of Commodore?

If I had been in charge, I would have definitely used the rank in the 24th century shows.

I've always thought the rank of Commodore would have made more sense for Sisko, given the precedent of Commodores commanding Starbases in TOS, but I suppose he had to be junior to Picard in order for the scenes between them to work in "Emissary."

Still, I might have promoted him to Commodore at the beginning of Season Six. I don't know if I'd have promoted any of the others to that rank, however.
 
Timo said:
Just to muddy things a bit: It was established in TMP that rear admiral wore one star on the shoulder marks, not leaving a star for the commodore rank.

Counternit: the epaulets on that uniform might have nothing to do with rank. Rather, the star could be a generic SF Command symbol, like the one on the door of Kirk's personal shuttle (aka air tram).

So the shoulder tabs would show rank and division for everyone below RAdm but change to something completely different at that grade? Leaving admirals without rank insignia for short sleeve uniforms? That doesn't seem likely at all.

The star on the shuttle door more likely reflects Kirk's rank, like having starred flags or plates on a general's car today.

What to call the one-boxed-pip rank?

Just about anything, really.

-Something related to the pseudohistory of the position, like Van Admiral or Port Admiral or System Admiral
-Something blatantly obvious, like Admiral Lieutenant or Assistant Admiral
-Something invented by the PR department, like Prime Admiral or Ascending Admiral

Like I said, all these alternatives sound terrible, and would be confusing to viewers. At least with RAdm, VAdm and Adm you will have a certain segment of the audience who knows how they relate.

Unicron said:
Admiralty ranks were not introduced to the American navy until the Civil War, mainly because it was felt they were too royalistic. And between 1866 and 1915, rear admiral was the only one to which an officer could be promoted from a lower rank. There was only one admiral and one vice admiral, created through Congress, and after those officers died Congress did not allow any rear admirals to be promoted (until 1915).

Even then, vice admirals and admirals were all really rear admirals, since three- and four-star ranks were temporary and went with particular jobs. It wasn't till the late 1930s that CNOs were allowed to keep four stars at retirement, and not until WW2 that this was extended to all three- and four-star officers.

The one exception to this rule was a special admiralty given to George Dewey, in recognition of his accomplishments in the Spanish-American War.

Sorry to be picky, but the word you want there is "admiralship." "Admiralty" is the British equivalent of the Navy Department or refers to maritime law.

--Justin
 
J.T.B. said:
If SF has indeed eliminated Cdre by the TNG time frame, we are left with the same problem as the USN: What to call the one-boxed-pip rank? "Rear admiral (lower half)," originating in the USN when half the RAdms were given one-star pay, seems very unlikely (indeed, the anachronistic "half" is very rarely used within the USN). Junior and senior rear admiral? Rear admiral (j.g.)? Sub-rear admiral? None of these sound too satisfactory to me!

I like the term "branch admiral" myself. In a few similar threads like this, I've speculated that some admirals from the sciences and operations branches could also be one-pip admirals.
 
^^ I stand corrected. ;) Branch admiral was mentioned in FASA's TNG supplement, and even had its own distinctive shoulder board. The writers could have presumed that McCoy would have held such a rank, as a medical branch admiral. The term was used in "Redemption" (IIRC) but the admiral had normal insignia, implying it was more of a title.
 
JDW said:
If you remember what Captain Kirk told Picard in Generations, I think Picard wouldn't accept promotion to Commodore unless he could retain command of the Enterprise-E.
(Somebody needs to check and see if I named the correct movie!)
I wonder how much life-defining career advice Picard has historically taken from people who have known him for nearly four whole minutes and thirty words of dialogue.
 
So the shoulder tabs would show rank and division for everyone below RAdm but change to something completely different at that grade?

Not everyone, as none of the long-sleeve uniforms below flag rank use epaulets for indicating rank.

Not that the idea of "one star for the second flag rank" would be objectionable as such. Indeed, that's what the TNG S1 scheme seems to suggest, too. Commodore (or Branch Admiral, or whatnot) could have the broad sleeve braid of all flag ranks, but no narrow braid to go with it, and no star on the shoulder.

Leaving admirals without rank insignia for short sleeve uniforms? That doesn't seem likely at all.

In this setup, a short-sleeve uniform would simply have a different configuration, just as with the line rank uniforms. The one motif with TMP uniforms is a move away from the simplicity of TOS and towards seemingly needless complexity, perhaps in hopes of catering for the costuming needs of sequels. But if there's any logic there, it would be not duplicating the rank markers, always going for "OR" rather than "AND".

It might be different if we ever saw a flag epaulet, or a vehicle or doorway marking, with something other than the single star. But that's all we ever get - probably because TPTB wanted Kirk to stand out in the Headquarters scenes, and thus kept his flag uniform unique.

Like I said, all these alternatives sound terrible, and would be confusing to viewers.

But that's true of all things military. Most people laugh out loud when hearing for the first time that some poor sod has to bear the rank of "Vice" or "Rear"!

And this is supposed to be the future. There's also a "part of the audience" that knows the space technology relevant to the story, and enjoys the mixture of attempted realism and accidental or deliberate innovations and impossibilities... And another part that finds the innovations and impossibilities cool without realizing or caring that these are innovative or impossible elements.

The term [Branch Admiral] was used in "Redemption" (IIRC) but the admiral had normal insignia, implying it was more of a title.

"Redemption" featured Fleet Admiral Shanthi, with the three pips of Vice Admiral. Ditto with Brackett from "Unification", and Nechayev's final TNG appearance in "Journey's End". Odds are, then, that Fleet Admiral is not a rank as such, but a honorific or position applicable to certain flag officers, typically of Vice Admiral rank. (Quite possibly it could refer to officers in command of a specific Fleet.)

As a corollary, one might suspect that the five-pip rank in Starfleet is not Fleet Admiral, to avoid confusion, but rather something like Grand Admiral. After all, we have never heard Fleet Admiral being unambiguously used as a rank - that is, those words have never described a person whose rank insignia we would not recognize as belonging to some other rank. There has never been a five-pip Admiral on screen in TNG, either. And while the TOS movies featured several people with the rank pins corresponding to the five-pip rank (Morrow, Cartwright, Admiral Bob, Admiral Bill), none were addressed by rank.

Timo Saloniemi
 
J.T.B. said:

Unicron said:
Admiralty ranks were not introduced to the American navy until the Civil War, mainly because it was felt they were too royalistic. And between 1866 and 1915, rear admiral was the only one to which an officer could be promoted from a lower rank. There was only one admiral and one vice admiral, created through Congress, and after those officers died Congress did not allow any rear admirals to be promoted (until 1915).

Even then, vice admirals and admirals were all really rear admirals, since three- and four-star ranks were temporary and went with particular jobs. It wasn't till the late 1930s that CNOs were allowed to keep four stars at retirement, and not until WW2 that this was extended to all three- and four-star officers.


--Justin

That makes kind of sense. In novels featuring US Marines it was suggested that since the Marine Comandant at the time was a Brigader General the Navy started the "lower half" Admirals so that they would always outrank the Marines. To emphasize that they worked for the Navy in the pre Defense Department/Pentagon days.
 
Just to muddy up the waters further, what was this guy's rank??? Commodore? Admiral? Fleet Captain?

He is from TNG season 1 ep "Where No One Has Gone Before".

wherenoone014.jpg


Different angle...

wherenoone021.jpg


Thnks to TrekCore for the image :thumbsup:
 
Stag said:
Just to muddy up the waters further, what was this guy's rank??? Commodore? Admiral? Fleet Captain?

He is from TNG season 1 ep "Where No One Has Gone Before".

wherenoone014.jpg
``Blockhead, 1st class.''
 
It's been speculated that he was a non-commissioned officer of some kind, because of the unique insignia and the fact that he didn't wear a communicator for some reason.
 
Let's just say he was like Dr. Zimmerman, but in the field of propulsion rather than holography.

And the "rank" of "Director". Outside of the normal Starfleet chain of command.
 
nx1701g said:
Kosinski was believed by some to be a Warrant Officer from what I recall, but his rank is never expressly stated.

Yeah, I kinda thought he was a Warrant Officer or a Chief Warrant Officer myself. I mean, they wouldn't really give a civilian a Starfleet uniform, so I thought he was simply an advanced specialist who acted like he was a civilian because he was too full of sh--um, himself...
:thumbsup:
 
Hmm... Kirk readily gave Starfleet uniforms to civilians: Charlie Evans (although his old-style pullover was probably Antares fare), John Christopher (not Starfleet, even if not strictly civilian in his own opinion), Khan Singh...

Timo Saloniemi
 
^I've never undstood that myself. I would think they would have to have had some kind of extra civilian clothing he could have given them.
 
This is a silly discussion. The rank was not eliminated. "Commodore," as some have said, is an obsolete naval term for what is now called "Rear Admiral Lower Half." It is a one-star admiral, equivalent to a one-star general (called "Brigadier General") in the army.

Thus...

A Commodore is a type of Admiral. We have likely seen them on TNG/DS9, but just didn't know it since they are called "Admiral" for short just like the other Admiral ranks.

One can assume that Commodore Decker, seen in TOS, was a Rear Admiral Lower Half who preferred to be referred to as "Commodore." I know I would, if I were a Rear Admiral Lower Half. It sounds cooler.

Thus, my username. :)
 
Dude, it's first season TNG. They had no clue what they were doing with the uniforms or rank pips back then. There are so many mistakes it's pointless to keep track of them (like the JAG with the line under the pips).


Stag said:
Just to muddy up the waters further, what was this guy's rank??? Commodore? Admiral? Fleet Captain?

He is from TNG season 1 ep "Where No One Has Gone Before".

[image]http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u174/Stag1203/wherenoone014.jpg[/image]

Different angle...

[image]http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u174/Stag1203/wherenoone021.jpg[/image]

Thnks to TrekCore for the image :thumbsup:
 
Why "mistake"? This sort of costuming is clearly just a "choice", and it doesn't contradict anything (because we don't know what the heck it means).

A "mistake" is when Captain Sisko wears three pips, or Commander Crusher wears none. A qualified "mistake" is when a character wears one sort of pip in one episode, another sort in another, and we don't hear of a promotion or a demotion. Those happen, but not all that often: there are about two dozen cases overall in all of Trek.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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