The Outcast

[Taelon]

Because that's society's "moral guardians" have declared that "gender is bad mm'kay".

In the same way that many groups of self-appointed "moral guardians" have declared that "homosexuality is bad mm'kay".

No reason. Just because.

Sure, you can bump junk with whomever you please, but don't do it as a specific gender because reasons.

 

[kirkfan]

Because that's society's "moral guardians" have declared that "gender is bad mm'kay".

In the same way that many groups of self-appointed "moral guardians" have declared that "homosexuality is bad mm'kay".

No reason. Just because.

Sure, you can bump junk with whomever you please, but don't do it as a specific gender because reasons.

Ok, so we've established that in that society they can sleep with whomever they want. What practical difference is there if they do it "as a specific gender". That's what I have trouble understanding. They already have the maximum sexual freedom as they are. What more can they ask for?

Calling themselves "male" or "female"? Don't you see that this doesn't make any sense? The whole story is absolutely pointless.

 

[T'Girl]

What practical difference is there if they do it "as a specific gender"

What practical difference ... none.

It's part of their societal code that the population won't identify with being of either gender, neither male or female. Soren offense is that she realized that she was female. This is a realization that no one is supposed to come to.

Once Soren perceived herself to be female, she began to (in secret) seek out people who perceived themselves to be male. She wasn't supposed to do this, no one was supposed to do this.

The brainwashing removed from Soren the knowledge that she was female, she no longer possessed a personal gender.

She intellectually had no gender.

 

[Makarov]

I think it's wrong to say the writers were covering their asses when the whole episode is about Riker "correcting" this morally wrong alien government. If someone was of the opinion that a "cure" would be a good thing, they would have already been offended.

It's an episode about choice, choosing gender/sexual orientation vs. a government that doesn't want that. You need the successful brainwash at the end to:

- show the evil that Riker was fighting against in the most dramatic way possible
- gets the character off the show because she's not a recurring character
- wrap the episode up without Riker getting thrown out of starfleet or starting a war

Yeah there isn't government brainwashing/"cure" of sexuality in real life, Trek is asking "what if there was? What would the enlightened federation think of it?" And we see that they are very against it. I think this episode deserves more credit even though they didn't cast a male actor.

 

[T'Girl]

I think it's wrong to say the writers were covering their asses when the whole episode is about Riker "correcting" this morally wrong alien government.

I didn't see this. Riker's primary goal would seem to have been extracting his new girlfriend for her repressive society, and not in any way correcting or changing that society.

What would the enlightened federation think of it?" And we see that they are very against it.

I didn't see this either, Picard for one seemed completely unconcerned with the practices of Soren's society. The society didn't gain Picard's admiration, but neither did it receive his "against'ness."

 

[Ithekro]

Prime Directive - do not interfere.

 

[kirkfan]

It's funny that the only times ST even acknowledges the existence of homosexuals is in the MU where they can be depicted as villains.

 

[Orphalesion]

Opinions that I stand firmly by:

Opinions are fine, however you phrase rather strong opinions like they were facts for everybody to live by (see below) and then call other people out on it when they do the same. That's... not very reflective in my eyes.

As Sisko's father could have said: "There is a time in a man's life when he should stop being dependent on his father and start thinking for himself, that time is before he hits twenty one."

And yet some people stand on their own feet sooner than 21 and some do it later, both not necessarily because of maturity or strength, but because of circumstances outside their control. 21 is only really a significant age in American Culture as far as I know. Also why a "man" why not an "adult"?

Second, only a weakling would pass his intimate fears on his children.

Wow you're quick to judge and categorize people... Something like that can happen completely subconsciously, i.e. the parent has a fear of horses, however is careful not to voice or overly show that fear in front of his/her child. Yet when they meet a horse the parent might, subconsciously tense up a bit, shrink just the tiniest bit back when the horse makes a loud sound etc. S/he does not consciously pass down fears to the child but children, being very perceptive of such things, picks up on those involuntary signals and might develop a fear of horses from it themselves.

Parents, even the best ones make heaps of mistakes when rising their children and are not necessarily bad people for it.

No modern woman could stand being treated like the men on Angel One. They repeat that idiocy in DS9's episode Sanctuary, with women having male harems.

You'd be surprised... there are all sorts of people in this world (not saying that it's the norm, just saying that it can happen and that I personally know one woman who idealizes 1950s culture to the point were she acts like Chapel to Spock towards men)

What I meant with the "supposedly normal situation" was that in most human cultures patriarchy was/is the norm. The society of Angel One was not that different form say 1950s western Civilisation (albeit reversed) when it came to gender roles. There are places on Earth, today, where women are treated like that.

 

[Taelon]

In the UK, 18 is the age in which you're considered an adult. You can drink, and everything.

 

[kirkfan]

Opinions that I stand firmly by:

Opinions are fine, however you phrase rather strong opinions like they were facts for everybody to live by (see below) and then call other people out on it when they do the same. That's... not very reflective in my eyes.

As Sisko's father could have said: "There is a time in a man's life when he should stop being dependent on his father and start thinking for himself, that time is before he hits twenty one."

And yet some people stand on their own feet sooner than 21 and some do it later, both not necessarily because of maturity or strength, but because of circumstances outside their control. 21 is only really a significant age in American Culture as far as I know. Also why a "man" why not an "adult"?

Second, only a weakling would pass his intimate fears on his children.

Wow you're quick to judge and categorize people... Something like that can happen completely subconsciously, i.e. the parent has a fear of horses, however is careful not to voice or overly show that fear in front of his/her child. Yet when they meet a horse the parent might, subconsciously tense up a bit, shrink just the tiniest bit back when the horse makes a loud sound etc. S/he does not consciously pass down fears to the child but children, being very perceptive of such things, picks up on those involuntary signals and might develop a fear of horses from it themselves.

Parents, even the best ones make heaps of mistakes when rising their children and are not necessarily bad people for it.




You'd be surprised... there are all sorts of people in this world (not saying that it's the norm, just saying that it can happen and that I personally know one woman who idealizes 1950s culture to the point were she acts like Chapel to Spock towards men)

What I meant with the "supposedly normal situation" was that in most human cultures patriarchy was/is the norm. The society of Angel One was not that different form say 1950s western Civilisation (albeit reversed) when it came to gender roles. There are places on Earth, today, where women are treated like that.

Why all the condescension?

I think I've taken enough abuse for one thread. If you can't address people in a civil manner without constantly deriding their character then that's your problem and I won't let you make it mine.

Good day.

 

[T'Girl]

In the UK, 18 is the age in which you're considered an adult. You can drink, and everything.

Curious, what's the driving age?

You can't purchase and public possession alcohol until 21 in America, but under certain conditions you can basically drink alcohol at any age.

 

[Taelon]

You can get a provisional driving license at 17, I believe.

 

[kirkfan]

You can get a provisional driving license at 17, I believe.

In some countries the minimal driving age is 14.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It is a rather silly concept. It seems to stem from the belief that their species' androgyny is somehow superior or more evolved.

They must deem gender identification to be some kind of throwback to a "lesser" time in their history. But then Star Trek oftens seems to misunderstand what evolution is. *cough*Threshold*cough* *cough*Dear Doctor*cough*

For all we know, it may be actually very common for J'naii to associate with one gender, but their treatment for this is so pervasive and ingrained into their very culture that they no longer see it as a common trait and is now something they all believe is rare and shameful.

No, that's not my question. Let me rephrase it:


How is a society that doesn't differentiate individuals as male or female, restrictive? IOW, she's already allowed to sleep with whomever she wants.


People are not categorized as male or female, ok? Therefore, they are NOT restricted to sleep with only part of the population. They can sleep with whomever they want.


What freedom is she missing?

The freedom to define her own identity without being classified a deviant.

Nobody is condescending you, just disagreeing with you. I can see how you could make the mistake.

 

[kirkfan]

It is a rather silly concept. It seems to stem from the belief that their species' androgyny is somehow superior or more evolved.

They must deem gender identification to be some kind of throwback to a "lesser" time in their history. But then Star Trek oftens seems to misunderstand what evolution is. *cough*Threshold*cough* *cough*Dear Doctor*cough*

For all we know, it may be actually very common for J'naii to associate with one gender, but their treatment for this is so pervasive and ingrained into their very culture that they no longer see it as a common trait and is now something they all believe is rare and shameful.

No, that's not my question. Let me rephrase it:


How is a society that doesn't differentiate individuals as male or female, restrictive? IOW, she's already allowed to sleep with whomever she wants.


People are not categorized as male or female, ok? Therefore, they are NOT restricted to sleep with only part of the population. They can sleep with whomever they want.


What freedom is she missing?

The freedom to define her own identity without being classified a deviant.

Nobody is condescending you, just disagreeing with you. I can see how you could make the mistake.

Wat mistake am I making?

 

[Taelon]

Nobody is condescending you, just disagreeing with you. I can see how you could make the mistake.

Wat mistake am I making?

This one.

Why all the condescension?

I think I've taken enough abuse for one thread. If you can't address people in a civil manner without constantly deriding their character then that's your problem and I won't let you make it mine.

Good day.

You seem to be taking counter-arguments as if they were personal attacks, as well as taking offense when people call you out on YOUR condescending of others.

 

[kirkfan]

Regardless, to get this thread back on subject, a society that doesn't discriminate bewteen genders is technically as well practically more free than one that does. Basically what we have here are people construing a lack of prejudice as a loss of freedom. That's some irony.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Are you kidding? The J'naii discriminate against both genders equally. They've forcibly eliminated them! That is not, in any sense of the word, freedom.

If one isn't free to be *any* gender, let alone a specific one, that's also discrimination.

It's irrelevant if J'naii aren't allowed to sleep with whoever they want (although I admit I thought they had also outlawed sexual activity - I don't recall Soren ever mentioning it). If they're not allowed to express gender identity while doing so, that is still a loss of freedom.

 

[Mytran]

I believe there's a scene where Soren discusses how her species reproduce, so sex for pleasure is certainly not an outlawed practice:

SOREN: I'm interested in your mating practices. What is involved with two sexes?
RIKER: Right. Well, it's pretty simple. Men inseminate the women. Women carry the baby.
SOREN: Our foetuses are incubated in fibrous husks, which the parents inseminate. From what we know of other species, our method is less risky and less painful.
RIKER: And less enjoyable.
SOREN: Less enjoyable?
RIKER: For humans, the sexual act brings a closeness and intimacy. It can be a very pleasurable experience. Inseminating a husk...
SOREN: That's just the last step. Mating is a long ritual for us, full of variety and invention. I assure you, it is extremely pleasurable.

 

[kirkfan]

^ Are you kidding? The J'naii discriminate against both genders equally. They've forcibly eliminated them! That is not, in any sense of the word, freedom.

If one isn't free to be *any* gender, let alone a specific one, that's also discrimination.

It's irrelevant if J'naii aren't allowed to sleep with whoever they want (although I admit I thought they had also outlawed sexual activity - I don't recall Soren ever mentioning it). If they're not allowed to express gender identity while doing so, that is still a loss of freedom.

Actually NO. Their laws against gender discrimination are akin to laws against apartheid. Any laws can be perceived as a loss of freedom but the freedom of killing someone without being prosecuted for example is one that I could do without.

The J'nail probably originated from a society like ours where homophobia and gender discrimination is still rampant in most countries. Their solution has been to outlaw gender discrimination, by defining it as a kind of racism. You may disagree with that solution but it isn't worse than the problem it is solving. The story doesn't make much sense because it has been ill conceived by people who are homophobic themselves. Good luck trying to find a single allusion in the franchise to homosexuality that isn't associated with being evil. And to add insult to injury we even have very few of those. As if six fingered albinos were more common in the human race than homosexuals.