So name a Star Trek moment that you just didn't "get".

[kirkfan]

Here's a silly one: if Ro was forced to remove her earing, why then was Worf allowed to wear a sash? Unless I've forgotten and he had to take that off, too.

My take is that Riker didn't realize that what Ro was wearing was a religious symbol, he thought it just a large fashion ornament and so instructed Ro to remove it. Riker didn't want Ro on the ship at all and wasn't going to cut her any slack.

Ok, I'll repeat then: The people doing the beaming wouldn't be violating the laws of the planet and therefore wouldn't be breaking starfleet regulations about respecting those laws.

Simply beaming up someone who has violated a local law likely is prohibited by 24th century Starfleet.

There was a glass ceiling in TOS, women couldn't go beyond 1st officer--and we only saw one--in a pilot that was abandoned and then remade into a episode.

Number One's exact rank was unclear, but we never saw a female Starfleet officer during TOS with a rank above Lieutenant, nor a female Federation official above a under secretary.

She was obviously the highest ranking officer after the Captain himself.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

She was obviously the highest ranking officer after the Captain himself.

Yes, which would almost certainly make her a full commander. It's inconceivable (and not in the Wally Shawn sense of the word) that she wasn't at least a lieutenant commander. (This of course assumes that Starfleet had the same ranking system as in post-pilot TOS, despite obviously using a different braiding system.)

 

[kirkfan]

She was obviously the highest ranking officer after the Captain himself.

Yes, which would almost certainly make her a full commander. It's inconceivable (and not in the Wally Shawn sense of the word) that she wasn't at least a lieutenant commander. (This of course assumes that Starfleet had the same ranking system as in post-pilot TOS, despite obviously using a different braiding system.)

The pilot felt different from the series itself in many subtle ways. Like the doctor making a drink for the Captain for example.

 

[2takesfrakes]

People writing novelisations don't have a finished film to work from, just a script (which can change in all sorts of ways on its way to the screen) and maybe some concept art. They also have to add scenes because a movie directly turned into a novel would be rather short.

"I ... see your point."

Aside from my quip about it being easy to get because it conveniently removes Decker without killing him and allows Kirk to reclaim command of the Enterprise for good, I will admit it is kind of odd how Decker goes from zero to this being his life's ambition so quickly.

I mean he's realized the truth of V'ger for all of maybe two minutes and then suddenly he's telling Kirk that as much as Kirk wanted the Enterprise, he wants "this"......despite the fact there is no clear cut answer as to what "this" is going to be.

Didn't Decker want the Enterprise just as much as Kirk? Wasn't that the reason why he resented Kirk so much? Suddenly the fact he might be reinstated as Captain once this V'ger thing is over doesn't matter to him at all? Even if it wasn't the Enterprise he would have almost assuredly gotten another ship.

Maybe his love for Ilea blinded him.......Who knows. But it did become his obsession pretty quickly with little solid info.

Exactly, Decker's love for Ilia and wanting to join with her can be argued as motivation, but that's speculation, at best. When Ilia got fried in the first place, Decker didn't fall to his knees and start weeping in a bucket. Brief annoyance was how he expressed his grief. All too brief, indeed.

It's interesting to me in one way that V'GER would be incapable of aspiration without killing someone. On the other hand, this notion of the Paramount importance of Humanity and its ability to overcome every kind of obstacle does sort of make it the obvious Catch-All for V'GER's problems.

But couldn't V'GER be educated, instead? Couldn't it be programmed to emote, if that's what it takes? I mean ... this machine does seem keen on dispatching yet another living person to satisfy its "insatiable curiosity." For a creature of "pure logic" and "knowledge that spans this universe" it doesn't seem very logical to me.

 

[kirkfan]

People writing novelisations don't have a finished film to work from, just a script (which can change in all sorts of ways on its way to the screen) and maybe some concept art. They also have to add scenes because a movie directly turned into a novel would be rather short.

"I ... see your point."

Aside from my quip about it being easy to get because it conveniently removes Decker without killing him and allows Kirk to reclaim command of the Enterprise for good, I will admit it is kind of odd how Decker goes from zero to this being his life's ambition so quickly.

I mean he's realized the truth of V'ger for all of maybe two minutes and then suddenly he's telling Kirk that as much as Kirk wanted the Enterprise, he wants "this"......despite the fact there is no clear cut answer as to what "this" is going to be.

Didn't Decker want the Enterprise just as much as Kirk? Wasn't that the reason why he resented Kirk so much? Suddenly the fact he might be reinstated as Captain once this V'ger thing is over doesn't matter to him at all? Even if it wasn't the Enterprise he would have almost assuredly gotten another ship.

Maybe his love for Ilea blinded him.......Who knows. But it did become his obsession pretty quickly with little solid info.

Exactly, Decker's love for Ilia and wanting to join with her can be argued as motivation, but that's speculation, at best. When Ilia got fried in the first place, Decker didn't fall to his knees and start weeping in a bucket. Brief annoyance was how he expressed his grief. All too brief, indeed.

It's interesting to me in one way that V'GER would be incapable of aspiration without killing someone. On the other hand, this notion of the Paramount importance of Humanity and its ability to overcome every kind of obstacle does sort of make it the obvious Catch-All for V'GER's problems.

But couldn't V'GER be educated, instead? Couldn't it be programmed to emote, if that's what it takes? I mean ... this machine does seem keen on dispatching yet another living person to satisfy its "insatiable curiosity." For a creature of "pure logic" and "knowledge that spans this universe" it doesn't seem very logical to me.

Ilia's death seems completely random and pointless, if V'ger Needed to kill someone then why didn't he choose Spock who had just smashed a computer console. He was definitely more of a nuisance than Illia who just stood there.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

People writing novelisations don't have a finished film to work from, just a script (which can change in all sorts of ways on its way to the screen) and maybe some concept art. They also have to add scenes because a movie directly turned into a novel would be rather short.

"I ... see your point."

Aside from my quip about it being easy to get because it conveniently removes Decker without killing him and allows Kirk to reclaim command of the Enterprise for good, I will admit it is kind of odd how Decker goes from zero to this being his life's ambition so quickly.

I mean he's realized the truth of V'ger for all of maybe two minutes and then suddenly he's telling Kirk that as much as Kirk wanted the Enterprise, he wants "this"......despite the fact there is no clear cut answer as to what "this" is going to be.

Didn't Decker want the Enterprise just as much as Kirk? Wasn't that the reason why he resented Kirk so much? Suddenly the fact he might be reinstated as Captain once this V'ger thing is over doesn't matter to him at all? Even if it wasn't the Enterprise he would have almost assuredly gotten another ship.

Maybe his love for Ilea blinded him.......Who knows. But it did become his obsession pretty quickly with little solid info.

Exactly, Decker's love for Ilia and wanting to join with her can be argued as motivation, but that's speculation, at best. When Ilia got fried in the first place, Decker didn't fall to his knees and start weeping in a bucket. Brief annoyance was how he expressed his grief. All too brief, indeed.

It's interesting to me in one way that V'GER would be incapable of aspiration without killing someone. On the other hand, this notion of the Paramount importance of Humanity and its ability to overcome every kind of obstacle does sort of make it the obvious Catch-All for V'GER's problems.

But couldn't V'GER be educated, instead? Couldn't it be programmed to emote, if that's what it takes? I mean ... this machine does seem keen on dispatching yet another living person to satisfy its "insatiable curiosity." For a creature of "pure logic" and "knowledge that spans this universe" it doesn't seem very logical to me.

It's also interesting when you realize that, for much of the film, Decker was the one who expressed the sentiment that V'ger was dangerous and not to be taken lightly and not looked at as some kind of mission of discovery. Kirk in fact was much less aggressive and seemed concerned about discovering what V'ger was all about inside, instead of just stopping it from destroying earth.
Decker was even hostile to the Ilia probe basically calling it the thing that killed Ilia......But by the end he's apparently in love with it even though earlier he'd expressed a clear understanding that it wasn't the woman he loved, but a machine copy.

Well like I said...got Decker out of the way in a fashion that didn't kill him, make Kirk seem like a jerk and allowed him to get the Enterprise back.

 

[kirkfan]

People writing novelisations don't have a finished film to work from, just a script (which can change in all sorts of ways on its way to the screen) and maybe some concept art. They also have to add scenes because a movie directly turned into a novel would be rather short.

"I ... see your point."

Aside from my quip about it being easy to get because it conveniently removes Decker without killing him and allows Kirk to reclaim command of the Enterprise for good, I will admit it is kind of odd how Decker goes from zero to this being his life's ambition so quickly.

I mean he's realized the truth of V'ger for all of maybe two minutes and then suddenly he's telling Kirk that as much as Kirk wanted the Enterprise, he wants "this"......despite the fact there is no clear cut answer as to what "this" is going to be.

Didn't Decker want the Enterprise just as much as Kirk? Wasn't that the reason why he resented Kirk so much? Suddenly the fact he might be reinstated as Captain once this V'ger thing is over doesn't matter to him at all? Even if it wasn't the Enterprise he would have almost assuredly gotten another ship.

Maybe his love for Ilea blinded him.......Who knows. But it did become his obsession pretty quickly with little solid info.

Exactly, Decker's love for Ilia and wanting to join with her can be argued as motivation, but that's speculation, at best. When Ilia got fried in the first place, Decker didn't fall to his knees and start weeping in a bucket. Brief annoyance was how he expressed his grief. All too brief, indeed.

It's interesting to me in one way that V'GER would be incapable of aspiration without killing someone. On the other hand, this notion of the Paramount importance of Humanity and its ability to overcome every kind of obstacle does sort of make it the obvious Catch-All for V'GER's problems.

But couldn't V'GER be educated, instead? Couldn't it be programmed to emote, if that's what it takes? I mean ... this machine does seem keen on dispatching yet another living person to satisfy its "insatiable curiosity." For a creature of "pure logic" and "knowledge that spans this universe" it doesn't seem very logical to me.

It's also interesting when you realize that, for much of the film, Decker was the one who expressed the sentiment that V'ger was dangerous and not to be taken lightly and not looked at as some kind of mission of discovery. Kirk in fact was much less aggressive and seemed concerned about discovering what V'ger was all about inside, instead of just stopping it from destroying earth.
Decker was even hostile to the Ilia probe basically calling it the thing that killed Ilia......But by the end he's apparently in love with it even though earlier he'd expressed a clear understanding that it wasn't the woman he loved, but a machine copy.

Well like I said...got Decker out of the way in a fashion that didn't kill him, make Kirk seem like a jerk and allowed him to get the Enterprise back.

Decker felt like someone who didn't have a life, outside of work that is. That's why he wasn't so bothered about giving it up for the unknown.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Decker volunteered to save Earth by being the one to join with the machine. The real Ilia was scanned and stored in V'ger. His fate would likely be no worse than hers, and maybe he thought that he might be able to save her. In any case, they could be together in whatever form the machine transformed into.

 

[Silvercrest]

Decker had a sudden realization that the Ilia probe had never taken an oath of celibacy.

 

[kirkfan]

Decker volunteered to save Earth by being the one to join with the machine. The real Ilia was scanned and stored in V'ger. His fate would likely be no worse than hers, and maybe he thought that he might be able to save her. In any case, they could be together in whatever form the machine transformed into.

I don't see it that way. To me it's just data, it's no more the persons it's been recorded from than books or tapes are the people that made them.

 

[kirkfan]

Decker had a sudden realization that the Ilia probe had never taken an oath of celibacy.

Yes, now he can have computer sex in the actual sense of the term.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Okay, I'm not done yet


Why did Troi want to leave her position as ship's counselor after loosing her ability to sense peoples' emotions? Does she not have any formal training as a counselor or did they just let her because she could sense emotions? It makes no sense.

Sounds to me like if she can't take it she might consider a transport ship.

 

[kirkfan]

Okay, I'm not done yet


Why did Troi want to leave her position as ship's counselor after loosing her ability to sense peoples' emotions? Does she not have any formal training as a counselor or did they just let her because she could sense emotions? It makes no sense.

Sounds to me like if she can't take it she might consider a transport ship.

Something she said herself later in Man Of The People, but to be fair she was under the influence of... something, emotional garbage, I guess.

 

[tharpdevenport]

That line was a humorous addition; it's an infamous scenes used in the TNG Recut series on youtube.

 

[kirkfan]

In the Masterpiece society we're told that this perfect society would collapse like a house of card if more than a certain percentage left, but that's just stupid:

First this society didn't start perfect, it had to be built, from the ground up, so to speak and then they made a few corrections to get to perfection.

Second, in order for this society to function, they can do without creative people for a while as they aren't in competition with other people, so all they need at least temporarily are people who can repair the systems that can make food and other essential items. The creative people are the ones most likely to leave while the people gifted to keep existing systems running are more likely to be on the conservative side of things and stay.

Third, the people who leave are at least potentially, misfits, that in the long run, didn't belong there. As a whole, they're better off without them.


Well, the whole story is just pure bullshit. As usual when ST tries to deal with abstractions, they never get them right.

 

[Taelon]

Okay, I'm not done yet


Why did Troi want to leave her position as ship's counselor after loosing her ability to sense peoples' emotions? Does she not have any formal training as a counselor or did they just let her because she could sense emotions? It makes no sense.

Sounds to me like if she can't take it she might consider a transport ship.

She'd just suffered a disability and her confidence was gone. Sure, in theory she could reman a counselor just like deaf Beethoven could stay a composer. But she isn't Beethoven.

 

[kirkfan]

Okay, I'm not done yet


Why did Troi want to leave her position as ship's counselor after loosing her ability to sense peoples' emotions? Does she not have any formal training as a counselor or did they just let her because she could sense emotions? It makes no sense.

Sounds to me like if she can't take it she might consider a transport ship.

She'd just suffered a disability and her confidence was gone. Sure, in theory she could reman a counselor just like deaf Beethoven could stay a composer. But she isn't Beethoven.

I don't quite agree with that. Beethoven suffered a disability that set him apart from most if not almost all other musicians.

Her "disability" put her at the same level as most every other counselor. The situation is practically opposite.

 

[Taelon]

She's had empathic ability throughout her entire counseling career and it was a major part of her diagnostic toolbox.

Saying well now she's just like everyone else doesn't change the fact that for her, she's lost one of her senses that she's had every day of her life.

It doesn't matter if she's just like everyone else because she's no longer like herself.

She was going through a crisis of confidence, she didn't want to give up counseling "just because".

Don't forget she did try a counseling session with a client after her disability, and her client's insistence that Deanna was wrong in her diagnosis was what set her over the edge.

 

[kirkfan]

She's had empathic ability throughout her entire counseling career and it was a major part of her diagnostic toolbox.

Saying well now she's just like everyone else doesn't change the fact that for her, she's lost one of her senses that she's had every day of her life.

It doesn't matter if she's just like everyone else because she's no longer like herself.

She was going through a crisis of confidence, she didn't want to give up counseling "just because".

Don't forget she did try a counseling session with a client after her disability, and her client's insistence that Deanna was wrong in her diagnosis was what set her over the edge.

It's been some time but didn't Riker call her a snob or something like that in that episode?

 

[tafkats]

Dr. Ann Mulhall was a lieutenant commander.

Not to mention one of TOS's less insulting portrayals of women.