Antonia

[urbandefault]

So, we are supposed to know every important point of every character's life over 20, 30, 40 years? Not possible, at least not onscreen.

It was shown onscreen that Picard/Crusher didn't work.

It was shown onscreen that every other woman Kirk was involved with didn't work.

Just hooking up a major character with a past love for fanwank's sake is just ... fanwank.

Why not let these guys have more? It's just a movie, after all.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Was it possible to just leave "Antonia" nameless and just refer to her as "her" and "she"? "This was the day I broke the news to her her." "She loves these eggs." It probably could've flown. But why did Kirk, especially in these, his Golden Years, have to be romantically involved with anyone, in the first place - especially as he'd avoided it for half a dozen movies, before now. What existed between Gillian Taylor and Jim Kirk was no more than a sympathetic ear and a good-bye kiss, on the cheek. Carol Marcus was a blast from the past, but nothing to suggest that they renewed their love affair. And Martia, the changeling, was just using her kisses to help persuade Kirk to embark on her bold and daring plan. Even he knew what that was. No, if there were any time to bring up a woman as Kirk's Greatest Adventure, it was probably in The Motion Picture, indeed, if at all.

 

[borgboy]

I kind of thought that Bev and Picard getting together was a viable possibility at that point. They had kissed in the series finale, and we learned that in an alternate future they had married and divorced. The news of Picard's potential future health problems seemed to bring them closer together.

 

[urbandefault]

The thing is, the Nexus wasn't reality. Picard realized it, then Guinan's "echo" showed up to reinforce it. Kirk realized it wasn't real when his horse didn't hesitate at the jump.

I think the whole point is that our Captains' realities were stronger than the pull of whatever the Nexus offered.

EDIT: I don't get why people would prefer to stick a cameo into something that clearly, from my point of view, would be fanwank and therefore unnecessary.

 

[USS Triumphant]

What existed between Gillian Taylor and Jim Kirk was no more than a sympathetic ear and a good-bye kiss, on the cheek.

I dunno - I kind of thought she might be perfect for him. He had long-term interests aside from her (his starship duty), and vice-versa (her whales, and catching up to the 23rd century), and so they could come back together now and then and it would be almost all new for both of them, over and over.

 

[EnriqueH]

I've decided, that in my head canon, Antonia is the lab tech Kirk almost married.

Except that the lab technician was BLONDE.

So was Shatner at one time. So?

So Antonia was a brunette.

The lab tech was blonde. She was remembered AS A BLONDE, so if what you're saying is true, why is she remembered as a brunette?

Wanna know why?

Because Antonia was NOT the lab technician, that's why!

Simple logic. Class dismissed. Game over.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Well ... although I consider The Voyage Home to be artistically bankrupt and unfunny, in general, 80's audiences pronounced it, otherwise. So, had Gillian Taylor found her way into the future movies, so she could have her little moments with Kirk, I'm sure it would've been widely accepted and well-liked.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Except that the lab technician was BLONDE.

So was Shatner at one time. So?

So Antonia was a brunette.

The lab tech was blonde. She was remembered AS A BLONDE, so if what you're saying is true, why is she remembered as a brunette?

Wanna know why?

Because Antonia was NOT the lab technician, that's why!

Simple logic. Class dismissed. Game over.

Only when they first met. When they meet again later in life (hence the TWOK stye uniforms rather than the Cage/WNMHGB style) she's gone brunette. If Chapel can do it, why not Lab Tech Antonia?

Still a joke, though. So not to be taken seriously.

My serious feeling is Antonia was a woman Kirk met between TMP and Generations.

 

[EnriqueH]

You might be getting that "serious feeling" because Kirk actually says he was going to tell her about "going back to Starfleet"...

 

[Nerys Myk]

You might be getting that "serious feeling" because Kirk actually says he was going to tell her about "going back to Starfleet"...

Not sure what you mean here.

 

[EnriqueH]

It means you're stating the obvious: In the movie, Kirk says, "The day I told her I was going back to Starfleet." That implies he had left or semi-retired or retired?

When was that in the timeline, you think?

During TOS? Prior to TMP? Obviously it was after TMP.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It means you're stating the obvious: In the movie, Kirk says, "The day I told her I was going back to Starfleet." That implies he had left or semi-retired or retired?

When was that in the timeline, you think?

During TOS? Prior to TMP? Obviously it was after TMP.

Still not sure why you think this need to pointed out.

 

[Greg Cox]

EDIT: I don't get why people would prefer to stick a cameo into something that clearly, from my point of view, would be fanwank and therefore unnecessary.

One person's "fanwank" is another person's affectionate nod to the character's past as we prepare to say good-bye to him. YMMV.

I mean, sure, there's no reason we can't squeeze an "Antonia" into Kirk's love life at some point. And lord knows that's how they often handled Kirk's old flames on the original series. (See the hitherto-unmentioned "Ruth" in "Shore Leave.")

But given that this was supposed to be Kirk's last hurrah and given that the whole premise was supposed to be that Antonia was not just a woman in his past, but the woman of his dreams, I don't think it worked dramatically to make her somebody we've never heard of before.

The idea behind using Edith or Rand or whomever would not be to give the fans a cheap thrill, but to give the whole scenario a little more oomph. Kirk walking away from "Antonia who?" seems like no big deal.

And a little nostalgia is expected at a going-away party.

 

[Dukhat]

The thing is, the Nexus wasn't reality. Picard realized it, then Guinan's "echo" showed up to reinforce it. Kirk realized it wasn't real when his horse didn't hesitate at the jump.

I think the whole point is that our Captains' realities were stronger than the pull of whatever the Nexus offered.

That's a pretty decent way to justify what we saw. Unfortunately it's the complete opposite of what Guinan told Picard. She made it clear that he'll never want to leave, and he won't care about anything else in the "real" world. And to judge by Soran's actions, if he ever left the Nexus, he would do anything to try to get back.

Did Picard do any of this? No.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

The Nexus gives them what they truly desire...Spock bare-chested on horseback, waiting for Kirk so the can gallop off into the sunset

 

[USS Triumphant]

That's a pretty decent way to justify what we saw. Unfortunately it's the complete opposite of what Guinan told Picard. She made it clear that he'll never want to leave, and he won't care about anything else in the "real" world. And to judge by Soran's actions, if he ever left the Nexus, he would do anything to try to get back.

Did Picard do any of this? No.

The Nexus didn't work the way Guinan anticipated on Kirk and Picard, because what Picard wants more than anything else is to be on the side of the good and proper, and it would be neither good nor proper to stay in the Nexus with the lives of his crew and the people of the Veridian system were in danger. And what Kirk wants more than anything else is the risk and to be relevant - and about the least relevant way for him to exist is inside that Nexus.

So the Nexus actually gave both of them what they most desired BY letting them out.

 

[Ithekro]

The assumption is that Kirk retired sometime between TMP and TWOK. It would make a little sense. Admiral Kirk loses command of the Enterprise again, decides to leave Starfleet this time instead of say behind a desk. Yet something calls to him to go back even if it is to the Academy. At least he can still take rides on Enterprise.

In a world he decides to stay retired with this woman, things change. Perhaps he was responsible for at least part of the Genesis Project and without him, they wouldn't get the funding so USS Reliant never goes to Ceti Alpha V. Khan doesn't get his revenge, Spock doesn't die, the Enterprise stays in service in some capacity. David doesn't get killed by Klingons. Of course there is the whole Whalesong problem, but if Spock is still Captain of the Enterprise, even as a training ship, he would have figured out the solution with or without Kirk. And Enterprise would be more suited to getting some whales than that Bird of Prey. Enterprise-Spock save the day and Kirk goes on riding his horses.

 

[Khan 2.0]

The assumption is that Kirk retired sometime between TMP and TWOK. It would make a little sense. Admiral Kirk loses command of the Enterprise again, decides to leave Starfleet this time instead of say behind a desk. Yet something calls to him to go back even if it is to the Academy. At least he can still take rides on Enterprise.

In a world he decides to stay retired with this woman, things change. Perhaps he was responsible for at least part of the Genesis Project and without him, they wouldn't get the funding so USS Reliant never goes to Ceti Alpha V. Khan doesn't get his revenge, Spock doesn't die, the Enterprise stays in service in some capacity. David doesn't get killed by Klingons. Of course there is the whole Whalesong problem, but if Spock is still Captain of the Enterprise, even as a training ship, he would have figured out the solution with or without Kirk. And Enterprise would be more suited to getting some whales than that Bird of Prey. Enterprise-Spock save the day and Kirk goes on riding his horses.

Captain spock (on a new ship not Ent A) would deal with sybok possibly without having the ship hijacked (as his ship would've been fully functional). Then overseen the peace stuff with the Klingons (maybe the outcome would've been similar) the Ent B gets its launch without Kirk (or Spock). Don't manage to save anyone. Guinan and Soran remain in the nexus. (which would mean the federation would be destroyed by the Klingons)

 

[EnriqueH]

EDIT: I don't get why people would prefer to stick a cameo into something that clearly, from my point of view, would be fanwank and therefore unnecessary.

One person's "fanwank" is another person's affectionate nod to the character's past as we prepare to say good-bye to him. YMMV.

I mean, sure, there's no reason we can't squeeze an "Antonia" into Kirk's love life at some point. And lord knows that's how they often handled Kirk's old flames on the original series. (See the hitherto-unmentioned "Ruth" in "Shore Leave.")

But given that this was supposed to be Kirk's last hurrah and given that the whole premise was supposed to be that Antonia was not just a woman in his past, but the woman of his dreams, I don't think it worked dramatically to make her somebody we've never heard of before.

The idea behind using Edith or Rand or whomever would not be to give the fans a cheap thrill, but to give the whole scenario a little more oomph. Kirk walking away from "Antonia who?" seems like no big deal.

And a little nostalgia is expected at a going-away party.

That's pretty much how I feel.

Kirk leaving Edith behind...again...would've packed more dramatic punch. I think that's all the "Antonia Who?" brigade is trying to convey.

Now I guess you COULD use Miramanee or the girl from Requiem from Methuselah, but I feel Edith is the best choice particularly because her episode is the consensus best Trek episode, and more people are likely to know her over another past love.

 

[EnriqueH]

It means you're stating the obvious: In the movie, Kirk says, "The day I told her I was going back to Starfleet." That implies he had left or semi-retired or retired?

When was that in the timeline, you think?

During TOS? Prior to TMP? Obviously it was after TMP.

Still not sure why you think this need to pointed out.

It's ok. Don't worry about it.