Antonia

[Gaith]

So I think fans can be forgiven for wondering why, if she's such a big deal to Kirk, we've never heard of her before.

We're talking about the same Kirk who falls for all kinds of women in all sorts of TOS episodes, yes?

But Antonia's not just another ex. The nature of the Nexus means this was the happiest Kirk had ever been, and thus Antonia is the woman who made him happiest.

From where art thou pulling that idea?

GUINAN: It was like being inside joy. As if joy was something tangible... and you could wrap yourself in it like a blanket. And never in my entire life have I been as content.
​

I get why some fans wish that they'd been given a call-back to a prior moment or character here. But though Guinan does say the Victorian Christmas is "what [he] wanted", the idea that the Nexus draws on and/or recreates peoples' specific memories is a fan wish, not an element from the movie itself.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But the problem with "Antonia" is that she's not supposed to be some idealized fantasy woman. She's portrayed in the movie as somebody who is supposed to mean something to Kirk, who is some great long-lost love that once meant a lot to him . . . .

So I think fans can be forgiven for wondering why, if she's such a big deal to Kirk, we've never heard of her before.

Pretty much every time we meet an ex-flame of Kirk's it's someone we've never heard of before.

That's true. But Antonia's not just another ex. The nature of the Nexus means this was the happiest Kirk had ever been, and thus Antonia is the woman who made him happiest. That's what I take exception to. If we weren't told that this is Kirk's ideal life I wouldn't care that much. It's the importance of the scene and thus Antonia that makes that scene so important and thus controversial.

Kirk's had a long life. Why can't his time with Antonia be his happiest and happier than his time with Edith, Miramanee, Ruth or another past love?

His past with Edith and Miramanee show a "simple" life does make him happy.

 

[EnriqueH]

From where art thou pulling that idea?

GUINAN: It was like being inside joy. As if joy was something tangible... and you could wrap yourself in it like a blanket. And never in my entire life have I been as content.
​

I get why some fans wish that they'd been given a call-back to a prior moment or character here. But though Guinan does say the Victorian Christmas is "what [he] wanted", the idea that the Nexus draws on and/or recreates peoples' specific memories is a fan wish, not an element from the movie itself.

It's not a fan wish, it's a fan interpretation based on the given explanation.

You act as if the Nexus was clearly defined. It wasn't.

Guinan's words can interpreted loosely any which way.

Let's be honest here: The Nexus was vague.

Guinan also said she was an "echo of the person you know". That's also pretty vague.

So if the Nexus is joy, then joy for these characters could be a Victorian Christmas, Antonia, Edith Keeler or being captain of the Enterprise-Z.

 

[Nerys Myk]

.

Pretty much every time we meet an ex-flame of Kirk's it's someone we've never heard of before.

During TOS and even up to around STII and III, it's like we're still learning about Kirk.

But by Generations, he's at death's door and we know it. Surely, we've witnessed or at least heard about the most important events and people in his life by this point?

.

Death's door? Nah, he was retiring not dying.

I doubt the 100 hours or so of Kirk's life we've seen hardly constitutes everything.

 

[EnriqueH]

Pretty much every time we meet an ex-flame of Kirk's it's someone we've never heard of before.

That's true. But Antonia's not just another ex. The nature of the Nexus means this was the happiest Kirk had ever been, and thus Antonia is the woman who made him happiest. That's what I take exception to. If we weren't told that this is Kirk's ideal life I wouldn't care that much. It's the importance of the scene and thus Antonia that makes that scene so important and thus controversial.

Kirk's had a long life. Why can't his time with Antonia be his happiest and happier than his time with Edith, Miramanee, Ruth or another past love?

His past with Edith and Miramanee show a "simple" life does make him happy.

If you and others like it, hey! More power to you.

I don't like it.

Why? Because I feel that it makes Kirk a stranger. We all knew Kirk was going to die, he was facing his mortality, and by this point in his life, we know him pretty well. So who is this Antonia person? I just feel that at this stage of the game, Kirk's storyline demanded a full circle or continuity of a kind. He wasn't with his best friends, he wasn't on board the Enterprise, so I felt bringing back an ex-girlfriend was the way to go.

That's just my opinion.

 

[Lance]

I've always suspected that Antonia was added to the story as an after-thought. She's nothing but a vague plot device (and not a terribly well implemented one). In the event, the ending was so rushed that they didn't even have time to do anything more than say "Here's Antonia, she's Kirk's sweetheart who we've never heard of before, but we won't show you much of her because the movie's winding down and we really just need to hurry up and get Kirk back to Veridian III so we can drop a bridge on him already".

Generations' conclusion is just a bit of a mess, really.

 

[EnriqueH]

.

Pretty much every time we meet an ex-flame of Kirk's it's someone we've never heard of before.

During TOS and even up to around STII and III, it's like we're still learning about Kirk.

But by Generations, he's at death's door and we know it. Surely, we've witnessed or at least heard about the most important events and people in his life by this point?

.

Death's door? Nah, he was retiring not dying.

I doubt the 100 hours or so of Kirk's life we've seen hardly constitutes everything.

Don't quibble with me. EVERYONE knew that Kirk was in this movie to die. Period.

Whereas Spock and the Enterprise's death were leaked by Roddenberry to sabotage Bennett, I firmly believe Berman and co. DELIBERATELY leaked Kirk's death.

Let's not be coy.

Kirk was at death's door. We all knew it.

 

[EnriqueH]

I've always suspected that Antonia was added to the story as an after-thought. She's nothing but a vague plot device (and not a terribly well implemented one). In the event, the ending was so rushed that they didn't even have time to do anything more than say "Here's Antonia, she's Kirk's sweetheart who we've never heard of before, but we won't show you much of her because the movie's winding down and we really just need to hurry up and get Kirk back to Veridian III so we can drop a bridge on Kirk already".

Generations' conclusion is just a bit of a mess, really.

Yeah, not a lot in Generations was "well implemented".

Vague plot device is a recurring theme in Generations, which is unfortunate because you can tell that the ingredients were there for a good movie, they just didn't execute it well.

 

[Lance]

I've always suspected that Antonia was added to the story as an after-thought. She's nothing but a vague plot device (and not a terribly well implemented one). In the event, the ending was so rushed that they didn't even have time to do anything more than say "Here's Antonia, she's Kirk's sweetheart who we've never heard of before, but we won't show you much of her because the movie's winding down and we really just need to hurry up and get Kirk back to Veridian III so we can drop a bridge on him already".

Generations' conclusion is just a bit of a mess, really.

Yeah, not a lot in Generations was "well implemented".

Vague plot device is a recurring theme in Generations, which is unfortunate because you can tell that the ingredients were there for a good movie, they just didn't execute it well.

The Nexus is the problem.

In theory the fantasy land isn't actually a bad idea. But it's implementation in the story just plain stinks.

The movie has only got a short amount of time to explore this most esoteric of concepts. Well, the reality is that they *don't* explore it.

We get some heavy-handed mumbo jumbo from Guinan about how the Nexus is supposed to be this great happy world that people get addicted to, but because the movie's running time is already tick-tick-ticking away by the time Picard actually gets dragged into the thing in the second-to-last reel, it simply becomes this great rush to pull the two captain's together and resolve the movie. So we get Picard arbitarily rejecting his so-called addictive fantasy without so much as a second thought, and Kirk pretty much doing likewise.

So what could have been an interesting concept, using this as a way to add layers to the characters by doing the whole 'It's A Wonderful Life' thing; becomes instead what it really is: a simple plot device designed to bring the captains together in the final reel of the movie.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That's true. But Antonia's not just another ex. The nature of the Nexus means this was the happiest Kirk had ever been, and thus Antonia is the woman who made him happiest. That's what I take exception to. If we weren't told that this is Kirk's ideal life I wouldn't care that much. It's the importance of the scene and thus Antonia that makes that scene so important and thus controversial.

Kirk's had a long life. Why can't his time with Antonia be his happiest and happier than his time with Edith, Miramanee, Ruth or another past love?

His past with Edith and Miramanee show a "simple" life does make him happy.

If you and others like it, hey! More power to you.

I don't like it.

Why? Because I feel that it makes Kirk a stranger. We all knew Kirk was going to die, he was facing his mortality, and by this point in his life, we know him pretty well. So who is this Antonia person? I just feel that at this stage of the game, Kirk's storyline demanded a full circle or continuity of a kind. He wasn't with his best friends, he wasn't on board the Enterprise, so I felt bringing back an ex-girlfriend was the way to go.

That's just my opinion.

Like it? Never gave much thought til now. The "it should have been character X" is a bit too fanservice for my tastes.

.



During TOS and even up to around STII and III, it's like we're still learning about Kirk.

But by Generations, he's at death's door and we know it. Surely, we've witnessed or at least heard about the most important events and people in his life by this point?

.

Death's door? Nah, he was retiring not dying.

I doubt the 100 hours or so of Kirk's life we've seen hardly constitutes everything.

Don't quibble with me. EVERYONE knew that Kirk was in this movie to die. Period.

Whereas Spock and the Enterprise's death were leaked by Roddenberry to sabotage Bennett, I firmly believe Berman and co. DELIBERATELY leaked Kirk's death.

Let's not be coy.

Kirk was at death's door. We all knew it.

Which doesn't change the fact that we've seen very little of Kirk's life. There is plenty of room for lost loves and grand adventures.

"Coy"? Is that really the word you wanted to use?

Kirk dying in the film or not, he wasn't at deaths door in the usual sense of the phrase.

 

[EnriqueH]

You can micro-analyze every word I write, but that doesn't change the fact:

Kirk was a dead man walking.

You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

You can micro-analyze every word I write, but that doesn't change the fact:

Kirk was a dead man walking.

You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

Only because we knew the script. To the character and in the story (which is what's being talked about), he still had a long retirement ahead of him. A routine trip around the solar block wasn't meant to end in anybody's death as far as all of the characters were concerned.

 

[Lance]

EnriqueH is being slightly humorous/facetious (), but his point is a valid one: Rick Berman admitted that when he was faced with the notion of bringing Kirk into the 24th century, he would not countenance any idea other than killing him off, because he thought it was too much of a game-changer to still have ol' James T. running around out there in Picard's century. No alternative ideas for Kirk's fate were considered by Berman, other than to kill him off.

(Although I must agree with Berman to some extent; I too am not sure I'd be entirely certain of leaving Kirk alive in Picard's time, but I wonder what the alternatives are? Sending him back to 1701-B?)

 

[Khan 2.0]

could've gone back in the nexus somehow? After they'd defeated soran, Kirk gets 'snatched' back into the nexus somehow to Picards dismay

that'd have sort of like being dead as theres no way wed see the nexus again, but at least hed have been alive

 

[Lance]

could've gone back in the nexus somehow? After they'd defeated soran, Kirk gets 'snatched' back into the nexus somehow to Picards dismay

I like that idea a lot. Give Kirk an ending a little bit like Captain Pike, where he gets to spend eternity living his illusion after having "one last adventure" stopping Soran.

 

[Khan 2.0]

could've gone back in the nexus somehow? After they'd defeated soran, Kirk gets 'snatched' back into the nexus somehow to Picards dismay

I like that idea a lot. Give Kirk an ending a little bit like Captain Pike, where he gets to spend eternity living his illusion after having "one last adventure" stopping Soran.

Yes I didn't realise that - it'd totally mirror Pike in Menagerie

I'm picturing something similar to the escape from the Phantom Zone sequence in Supergirl where Peter O'Toole helps kara leave the zone but gets dragged back before he can escape (if hed made it there'd have been a superpowered Peter OToole on earth)... Kirk helps Picard leave the nexus then Kirk fights soran as Picard disrupts the rocket. At the end we see Picard about to reconcile with Kirk after he's defeated soran on top the mountain but to Picards horror the nexus somehow claims Kirk as it swoops over the mountain (which obviously wouldn't make much sense other than just to get rid of Kirk without killing him)

 

[Khan 2.0]

double post

 

[E-DUB]

Come on, people. This is James T. Kirk we're talking about. "Either", "or", and "instead of" aren't in his vocabulary. He had Antonia in the shack in the woods. He had Edith in a 1930's penthouse apartment. He had Miramanee in an Indian village. And when he got bored with the three of them, he'd visit the "Orion Slave girls training dormitory". It is the Nexus, you know. Where all your dreams come true.
Picard just caught up with him at the cabin.

Seriously, I thought at the time that having Joan Collins would have been great. It could have been a real "Oh, my God" moment in a movie that could have used a few more.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Seriously, I thought at the time that having Joan Collins would have been great. It could have been a real "Oh, my God" moment in a movie that could have used a few more.

If Joan Collins had appeared as Edith fans would be like why would she be aged? shouldn't she look like she did in COTEOF (ok I guess the nexus could've created an aged version of her at Kirks request), and the general audience would be 'Kirks fantasy woman is Alexis? WTF?!'

 

[Khan 2.0]

Wonder what the mysterious Antonia would've looked like if wed zoomed in on her on horseback? My guess is a 1994 era Pamela Anderson