Ladies, Gentlemen... the thread has just been completely, definitively won. The rest of us can pack it up; we're done here.
Antonia
- Thread starter EnriqueH
- Start date
pity he didn't catch up with him when he was indulging in the dreams of James T Kirk instead of William Shatner
Kirk became Shatner sometime in the first season.
I'll limit myself to the words/ideas that don't make sense.
I don't' see the connection between Kirk dying and the choice to use Antonia rather than character X. Other than fanservice.
actually i don't have a problem with Picards Xmas scene as i think it works well. Going from the planet to the Xmas scene, picards ultimate desire and the deduction of what happened via the baubles give it an eerie twilight zone feel. (PS mustve had some input into that scene with his love for Xmas Carol, plus its nice to have an Xmas scene in a trek film to bring out at xmas! ok its not very French but the whole Picards a french man seemed to be dropped after season 1 anyway). Guinan appearing isnt too good but i guess she has to as it ties in with their previous scene and he has to get to kirk.
however kirks nexus wasn't great. Its like we get the build up to the anticipated Picard meets kirk scene and its the log cabin. Surely part of the appeal of seeing TOS/TNG characters meet is have them in eithers environment. better to have had it on the Ent A bridge with kirk in his standard TWOK uniform. (TOS Ent wouldve maybe been abit cheap looking for the big screen unless theyd modernised it up abit, anyway itd look abit weird having movie Kirk on there, and wed already had Picard meeting Scotty on there in Relics). then have them argue/debate around the ship and at some point we see the Ent A in space again, and maybe instead of the horse scene they appear in Kirks San Fran apartment from Trek II & III (no horses, Picard meets kirk not shatner!) & maybe even other certain Original Trek movie moments recreated except with Kirk and Picard in them like something out of Christmas Carol or BTTF2, all of which wouldve allowed for Picard to be in original series movie environments like one would expect to see if Picard is in kirks nexus (maybe Davids death? The Ent destruction?)
Anyway the cabin/Antonia/horses thing didn't really make much sense as the opening of the film make it clear kirks ultimate desire was to be back in the chair - kind of the opposite to Picard
Actually, the beginning of Generations makes it quite clear what Kirk's fantasy should have been: he wanted to be in the center seat again. He didn't like being retired and wanted to be a starship captain again, preferably of the Enterprise. But because his Enterprise was gone and this new Enterprise already had a captain, he felt useless. He even says as much to Picard about not letting anyone take you away from that center seat. So instead of Kirk's fantasy of being back in command of the original TOS Enterprise, his fantasy is actually what he would have wanted the least: to be retired in some log cabin in the woods somewhere with some woman he (and the audience) doesn't really give a shit about. WTF?
The fact that the writers utterly failed to see this shows just how idiotic this script was. Perhaps if most of the budget hadn't been spent on the holodeck scene or that stellar cartography room, perhaps we could have seen Kirk at the command of an imaginary TOS Enterprise bridge, with younger versions of the rest of the crew to complete the fantasy. Now wouldn't that have been cooler to see than Worf's promotion?
The fact that the writers utterly failed to see this shows just how idiotic this script was. Perhaps if most of the budget hadn't been spent on the holodeck scene or that stellar cartography room, perhaps we could have seen Kirk at the command of an imaginary TOS Enterprise bridge, with younger versions of the rest of the crew to complete the fantasy. Now wouldn't that have been cooler to see than Worf's promotion?
Kirk back on his original Enterprise would've made the most sense for his fantasy, and as I said before, it does feel like the writers didn't understand Kirk at all.
But if he had to be off with a woman somewhere, it would've been amazing if it had been Edith. A line of dialogue mentioning it was their anniversay or something would explain why she was older, that for Kirk lots of time had passed. It would've been a huge OMG momen, full of meaning to long time fans. Sure, casual viewers would only understand she was a lost love, but the scene should work well at that level too.
For what it's worth, the excellent Crucible trilogy does make better use of the Nexus and Kirk.
But here's the thing: neither we the audience or Kirk himself was really supposed to care about this woman. Lance hit the nail on the head when he said that Antonia was just a plot device. She was supposed to represent a fantasy that Kirk really doesn't want. If the woman had been Edith Keeler, then that throws a monkey wrench into things, because we the audience knows that she would be someone Kirk would want to be with, and the whole point was for Kirk to want to leave the Nexus. So instead Kirk is given a fantasy that makes it very easy for him to leave it, because he never wanted it in the first place. Which of course makes no sense in the context of what we were told about the Nexus.
yes (but the Ent A for realism/budgetary reasons
)
yes (but the Ent A for realism/budgetary reasons
No, they would have had plenty of money in the budget to construct a facsimile of the TOS bridge had they not spent it on other unnecessary things.
I've decided, that in my head canon, Antonia is the lab tech Kirk almost married.
And I can't believe Kirk had no significant relationships between TMP and Generations. Kirk falls in love at the drop of a hat. And falls hard. He must of had one or two "true loves'" in that time frame. The only women he "meets" in the movie era are Carol, who's an ex and Gillian, who dumps him faster than a overloading warp core. (and seems immune to his charms)
And I can't believe Kirk had no significant relationships between TMP and Generations. Kirk falls in love at the drop of a hat. And falls hard. He must of had one or two "true loves'" in that time frame. The only women he "meets" in the movie era are Carol, who's an ex and Gillian, who dumps him faster than a overloading warp core. (and seems immune to his charms)
I've decided, that in my head canon, Antonia is the lab tech Kirk almost married.
And I can't believe Kirk had no significant relationships between TMP and Generations. Kirk falls in love at the drop of a hat. And falls hard. He must of had one or two "true loves'" in that time frame. The only women he "meets" in the movie era are Carol, who's an ex and Gillian, who dumps him faster than a overloading warp core. (and seems immune to his charms)
Well, there was also that slinky shape-changer in ST VI, but I guess she's not "true love" material.
(Although, oddly, she's the only woman Kirk actually makes out with in the entire movie series.)
I've decided, that in my head canon, Antonia is the lab tech Kirk almost married.
Except that the lab technician was BLONDE.
She does?
A) Were they even together?
B) I would think Kirk understands her priorities since he's made his career his priority. In fact, He doesn't seem all that broken up about Gillian leaving.
C) She's being flirty with him.
And you think *my* posts don't make sense.
I've decided, that in my head canon, Antonia is the lab tech Kirk almost married.
Except that the lab technician was BLONDE.
I wonder if we'll ever get a technology to change our hair color in the far, far future.
Imagine if that were possible!!
The way I see it, is the Nexus drew from the "road not taken" with the Captains.
Picard was grieving for his lost brother and nephew and said that he was the last of the Picards. He had to be wondering what would have happened if he had married and had kids of his own.
Kirk left Antonia, and probably always wondered what would have happened had he made the choice to stay.
The Nexus offered them the chance to answer those questions.
I didn't find it hard to connect those dots.
Picard was grieving for his lost brother and nephew and said that he was the last of the Picards. He had to be wondering what would have happened if he had married and had kids of his own.
Kirk left Antonia, and probably always wondered what would have happened had he made the choice to stay.
The Nexus offered them the chance to answer those questions.
I didn't find it hard to connect those dots.
I can connect the dots just fine.
What I question is the importance placed on Antonia over anyone else and any other scenerio. The set up of the Nexus is supposed to give you ultimate happiness, so we're supposed to believe for Kirk that it's Antonia in a cabin. Not Edith, or the Enterprise, or Spock and McCoy. I don't buy it, so it jars me out of the movie.
With Picard I'm just upset that his wife was some random nobody and not Beverly. We're supposed to believe that if Picard could have any wife in the world it would be...well, whoever she was. At the least it's a very dull choice for storytelling.
So was Shatner at one time. So?I've decided, that in my head canon, Antonia is the lab tech Kirk almost married.
Except that the lab technician was BLONDE.
Whats nonsensical about my post? As you note there is flirtation between the two, but in the end shes off to her own ship. Shatner's expression in that scene has a sort of "but what about me look.". I found it humorous. ( not unlike both comments I made.)
I totally get the point about Gillian going off to do her own thing, which I think suited her.
For what it's worth, the Chris Claremont graphic novel - Debt of Honor maybe? - does have Kirk on a romantic vacation at sea with Gillian in time for the baby whale's birth.
But then, Kirk also has a half Romulan daughter in that one that no one ever remembers.
For what it's worth, the Chris Claremont graphic novel - Debt of Honor maybe? - does have Kirk on a romantic vacation at sea with Gillian in time for the baby whale's birth.
But then, Kirk also has a half Romulan daughter in that one that no one ever remembers.
