Season 1

[Bad Thoughts]

I find something lacking in the occupation of bajor. We never learn what really prompted the invasion, nor why after two generations, there weren't permanent colonies of Cardassians on Bajor. It seems that the only ones there were the military and the civilians tending to their needs. But nothing is said about cardassian colonists. Who occupies a land for fifty years and never tries to colonize it?

Though it is never explained, Dukat does say in Waltz that there had been plans to colonize Bajor:

Good call! I never noticed that! I guess I was too distracted by Dukat's craziness but that's no excuse.

Still , it puzzles me that they never tried a full scale colonization. I have a hard time believing that the resistance was what was stopping them.

Resistance was probably not the deciding factor. That said, there were many European colonies that didn't get extensive settlements from their citizens. Often there were better places for immigration or not enough prestige to move from one's home to another part of the world, not to mention Europe was fairly prosperous during the most extensive period of imperialism--there was little need to immigrate. I would suspect that the takeover of Bajor was part of the same push that saw the colonization of worlds in what would become the DMZ. Those worlds were probably more open to the average Cardassian, whereas Bajor had a large native population.

From the perspective of storytelling, it was convenient that there were few Cardassian settlers, otherwise many of them would be difficult to remove from Bajor.

 

[kirkfan]

Though it is never explained, Dukat does say in Waltz that there had been plans to colonize Bajor:

Good call! I never noticed that! I guess I was too distracted by Dukat's craziness but that's no excuse.

Still , it puzzles me that they never tried a full scale colonization. I have a hard time believing that the resistance was what was stopping them.

Resistance was probably not the deciding factor. That said, there were many European colonies that didn't get extensive settlements from their citizens. Often there were better places for immigration or not enough prestige to move from one's home to another part of the world, not to mention Europe was fairly prosperous during the most extensive period of imperialism--there was little need to immigrate. I would suspect that the takeover of Bajor was part of the same push that saw the colonization of worlds in what would become the DMZ. Those worlds were probably more open to the average Cardassian, whereas Bajor had a large native population.

From the perspective of storytelling, it was convenient that there were few Cardassian settlers, otherwise many of them would be difficult to remove from Bajor.

I wonder what made the cardassians leave Bajor. In Europe, it took a full scale attack by the allies to make the Nazis leave France for example. I don't think the French resistance alone could have made them leave. Not until the whole country was turned to ruins. In fact they came this close to destroying Paris before the allies could get there.

 

[Orphalesion]

I'm really wondering how many other species the Cardassians occupied in their time? We have no idea how large the Cardassian Union is (no all those maps are not canon) but chances are that Bajor was not the first inhabited planet the Cardassians conquered.

What do you think happened to those other species, if any? Did the Cardassians exterminate them? Keep them as slaves? Were ore compliant species perhaps treated better than the Bajorans were? Were there still subjugated species at the time of DS9? Did they finally regain their freedom after the Dominion War?

I often get the impression from Cardassian characters that Bajor was a unique occurrence, but was that because it was the only inhabited planet conquered or because the Bajorans were unusually successful in resisting?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I wonder what made the cardassians leave Bajor. In Europe, it took a full scale attack by the allies to make the Nazis leave France for example. I don't think the French resistance alone could have made them leave. Not until the whole country was turned to ruins. In fact they came this close to destroying Paris before the allies could get there.

I doubt that any one paradigm can explain Bajor or the Cardassian occupation. For the most part, Bajorans tend to look like the Irish, who won their independence from Britain through political pressure, organized violence, and a few military offenses by a small forces. The Shakar resistance looks more like the Jewish partisans during WWII than the French resistance: driven more specifically by the labor camps and executions, they targetted more the leadership or the camps and the collaborators. Finally, Decolonizastions in the 50s, 60 and 70s seems to frame events in a general sense: nations deciding that they are overextended around the world, thus too vulnerable to native independence movements. To varying degrees, they leave volunatrily or after some period of conflict, military or irregular in scale.

ETA: I don't remember who said it, but there was one Cardassian (Kotan Padar) who made the Cardassian withdrawal sound like the American withdrawal from Vietname: an event that was to a large extent political rather than military.

I'm really wondering how many other species the Cardassians occupied in their time? We have no idea how large the Cardassian Union is (no all those maps are not canon) but chances are that Bajor was not the first inhabited planet the Cardassians conquered.

What do you think happened to those other species, if any? Did the Cardassians exterminate them? Keep them as slaves? Were ore compliant species perhaps treated better than the Bajorans were? Were there still subjugated species at the time of DS9? Did they finally regain their freedom after the Dominion War?

I often get the impression from Cardassian characters that Bajor was a unique occurrence, but was that because it was the only inhabited planet conquered or because the Bajorans were unusually successful in resisting?

Hard to know. If I am not mistaken, background info in Broken Link suggests that the Cardassians and Klingons had long standing disputes over colonies, so these might have been worlds that had been either claimed or conquered, with or without native species. Dukat's speech in Sacrfice of Angels suggests that Cardassians have had lots of experience conquering whole civilizations.

On the other hand, perhaps subject peoples aren't that advanced. Indeed, Bajorans don't seem much different from 20th century humans, just with more experience in deep space. Maybe the planets Cardassia conquered were less advanced than Bajor.

 

[tomalak301]

While I think Enterprise had a better Season 1, DS9's was decent as well. It's a lot of inconsistency though, like one episode would be the great Captive Pursuit and the next would be something like Babel. That run though of Duet to The Seige might be the best consecutive run in the entire series though. Even there were some hiccups in the occupation arc and final chapter, but Duet, In the Hands of the Prophets, and then the Circle Trilogy was a great run.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

IMO, Enterprise season 1 is the worst season in Star Trek history.

@Borgboy

Before the American Revolution, the British were taking all of America's resources without providing any benefit and return. And let's not forget, at this time in history there was no concept of election, King George was just a guy who was born into the role. It's not quite as bad as how the Cardies treated the Bajorans but it was more than enough to justify revolution.

Nobody is entitled to be a leader, unless the people he leads unquestionably benefit from his leadership.

I did get the impression that Cardassia conquered several worlds, not just Bajor. Just maybe the other worlds long conformed to the Cardassian way of thinking. I get the impression at least from Duet that the decision to leave Bajor was an economic decision. The cost of occupying the world exceeded the benefit.

 

[kirkfan]

The one thing that is really puzzling is that the Cardassians seem ready to move back in at the first sign of weakness of the Bajoran and that really makes me wonder what made them leave in the first place. Because for example when Nazi Germany was thrown off the conquered countries in Europe, they really weren't in any shape to move back in (they could barely hold their own country together), not for a couple of decades and then some. If the Cardassians are able to come back, it would have been then ten times easier to just stay and not leave. That's what I have a hard time to swallow.

 

[borgboy]

I feel like the attitude the Cardassians give that they left Bajor for political reasons is just a way of saving face, considering that they always seem eager to return to Bajor if there's ever any sign of weakness from Bajor.
So this leaves the question of why the Cardassians left Bajor. I vaguely assume that the rebels were more successful than they're given credit for. Also, the Cardassians had the Maquis to deal with. The Federation's interest in things could be partially where politics come into play.
I still feel like Dukhat is hiding something about the reasons the Cardassians pulled out of Bajor to save face.

 

[kirkfan]

I feel like the attitude the Cardassians give that they left Bajor for political reasons is just a way of saving face, considering that they always seem eager to return to Bajor if there's ever any sign of weakness from Bajor.
So this leaves the question of why the Cardassians left Bajor. I vaguely assume that the rebels were more successful than they're given credit for. Also, the Cardassians had the Maquis to deal with. The Federation's interest in things could be partially where politics come into play.
I still feel like Dukhat is hiding something about the reasons the Cardassians pulled out of Bajor to save face.

Yes, as far as I am concerned, this is a total mystery. Why would the Cardassians leave Bajor when Bajor was never a serious opponent for Cardassia. As has been said, they could barely feed themselves for the first two years, how could they have an army that could contend with the Cardassians?

You know, it's like being shown a scene with a midget and a Giant and being told: "You know, that midget just beat the crap out of that giant! You have to believe us, he did!"

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I feel like the attitude the Cardassians give that they left Bajor for political reasons is just a way of saving face, considering that they always seem eager to return to Bajor if there's ever any sign of weakness from Bajor.
So this leaves the question of why the Cardassians left Bajor. I vaguely assume that the rebels were more successful than they're given credit for. Also, the Cardassians had the Maquis to deal with. The Federation's interest in things could be partially where politics come into play.
I still feel like Dukhat is hiding something about the reasons the Cardassians pulled out of Bajor to save face.

Why did France leave Algeria? The resistance raised the cost of occupying the nation to a point where it exceeded the benefit.

I highly recommend the movie Battle of Algiers, by the way.

 

[kirkfan]

I feel like the attitude the Cardassians give that they left Bajor for political reasons is just a way of saving face, considering that they always seem eager to return to Bajor if there's ever any sign of weakness from Bajor.
So this leaves the question of why the Cardassians left Bajor. I vaguely assume that the rebels were more successful than they're given credit for. Also, the Cardassians had the Maquis to deal with. The Federation's interest in things could be partially where politics come into play.
I still feel like Dukhat is hiding something about the reasons the Cardassians pulled out of Bajor to save face.

Why did France leave Algeria? The resistance raised the cost of occupying the nation to a point where it exceeded the benefit.

I highly recommend the movie Battle of Algiers, by the way.

Except that when France finally left Algeria, they never intended to come back. The Cardassians seem eager to come back, waiting for the first sign of weakness to do so. That's not consistent with an occupying force that has just been chased from a region.

 

[Tosk]

Some Cardassians wanted to retake Bajor, some didn't. Some never wanted to leave in the first place.

 

[Orphalesion]

^ And a few just wanted to leave the past in the past and learn to coexist with the Bajorans, like the two scientist from "Destiny"

In fact they came this close to destroying Paris before the allies could get there.

Not just Paris, they had plans for cities all over Europe (including many in Germany, like Berlin) to be destroyed rather than to leave them to the "enemy" with many of those plans they succeeded and many of them executed their wives and children before the Allies came.

Because for example when Nazi Germany was thrown off the conquered countries in Europe, they really weren't in any shape to move back in (they could barely hold their own country together), not for a couple of decades and then some.

Nazi Germany ceased to exist in 1945, democratic Germany after that has never shown interest in kick-starting another war or conquest (aside from a few fringe groups that is.)

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I feel like the attitude the Cardassians give that they left Bajor for political reasons is just a way of saving face, considering that they always seem eager to return to Bajor if there's ever any sign of weakness from Bajor.
So this leaves the question of why the Cardassians left Bajor. I vaguely assume that the rebels were more successful than they're given credit for. Also, the Cardassians had the Maquis to deal with. The Federation's interest in things could be partially where politics come into play.
I still feel like Dukhat is hiding something about the reasons the Cardassians pulled out of Bajor to save face.

Why did France leave Algeria? The resistance raised the cost of occupying the nation to a point where it exceeded the benefit.

I highly recommend the movie Battle of Algiers, by the way.

Except that when France finally left Algeria, they never intended to come back. The Cardassians seem eager to come back, waiting for the first sign of weakness to do so. That's not consistent with an occupying force that has just been chased from a region.

I'm not sure why Cardassia--or rather why specific Cardassians--would want to return to Bajor would be intellectually problematic. On the one hand, no one served as the model for either Cardassia or the occupation. Arguably, it is more like Fascist Italy by the end of the war, unable to extricate itself from a more determined, ideological ally. On the other, there are plenty of nations who have harbored resentment over being expelled (politically or militarily) and have desired to return. China still desires Taiwan, and independence is a positions only now becoming popular among Taiwanese. There are also Crimea and the Golan Heights. Nazi Germany was partially driven to reclaim Alsace-Lorraine and East Prussia.

Perhaps it is not entirely clear about what Cardassians really want. Only one really talks about retaking Bajor on a constant basis--Dukat--and he is the one we see the most. He is not, though, representatively Cardassian.

 

[borgboy]

^That is a good point. I think I'm assuming Dukhat speaks for Cardassia, when in fact retaking Bajor is just his own personal ambition. He lived like a king there, with absolute authority, all the Bajoran women he wanted, etc. With the loss of Bajor his status and power is considerably lessened. He wanted to return to his glory days. The whole recurring theme of Dukhat, in the name of Cardassian, hungry for the retaking of Bajor makes a lot more sense to me now.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Also they left just when the first stable wormhole ever was discovered.
And they let controll of it slip through their fingers.
That must have been politically devastating to whoever made the decision to leave.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^That is a good point. I think I'm assuming Dukhat speaks for Cardassia, when in fact retaking Bajor is just his own personal ambition. He lived like a king there, with absolute authority, all the Bajoran women he wanted, etc. With the loss of Bajor his status and power is considerably lessened. He wanted to return to his glory days. The whole recurring theme of Dukhat, in the name of Cardassian, hungry for the retaking of Bajor makes a lot more sense to me now.

Also they left just when the first stable wormhole ever was discovered.
And they let controll of it slip through their fingers.
That must have been politically devastating to whoever made the decision to leave.

Who wants what is difficult to sort out when we only get a few voices at a time. After Dukat, the Cardassians w know best--Dumar and Garak--don't seem nearly as interested in Bajor as Dukat. When the Dominion had the station, Dumar was far more interested in the wormhole as a strategic objective than Dukat, and when he was made the leader of Cardassia, Dumar was overall more concerned with the progress of the war and Dominion creep in Cardassian society. Garak, as a Cardassian, wanted ... a father's love? We never see him working directly against Bajoran interests.

Overall, Cardassia's plate seems full. Between the DMZ, the war with the Klingons, the Dominion War against the Federation and Klingons, and Breen ambitions, Bajor itself was probably insignificant. The wormhole is a strategic problem, but one that diminishes as Dominion production is introduced to Cardassian territory.

 

[kirkfan]

What is it that Sisko told Dukat? "You have a talent for picking the losing side."

Doesn't that apply to Cardassia as well?

 

[kkt]

What is it that Sisko told Dukat? "You have a talent for picking the losing side."

Doesn't that apply to Cardassia as well?

At least the Cardassian high command realized occupying Bajor was a losing proposition and ended it. And if Dukat hadn't brought Cardassia to the Dominion it's not clear whether the Cardassian civilian government would have.

 

[kirkfan]

What is it that Sisko told Dukat? "You have a talent for picking the losing side."

Doesn't that apply to Cardassia as well?

At least the Cardassian high command realized occupying Bajor was a losing proposition and ended it. And if Dukat hadn't brought Cardassia to the Dominion it's not clear whether the Cardassian civilian government would have.

I wonder how he managed to get the legitimacy to speak on their behalf (the cardassian government) , while being some rogue anti-klingon terrorist for the past year and a half.