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The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous.

Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

One assumes that the relatively new USS Excelsior is the closest thing to a Federation flagship in this era with Sulu in command. It is likely still the largest ship in the fleet, and might still be the only one so far built. Why it wasn't there might be something to do with keeping the two fleets from even possibly starting a shooting war by an ichy finger on the button.

Though Sulu did try to rescue Kirk and McCoy, so one has to wonder how they got into the loop after running from Kang at the border.
I think that virus Tuvok had made up the whole "We'll go rescue Kirk and McCoy" bit from scratch. STVI states explicitly that it had been a month since Praxis exploded, yet Excelsior went on its abortive rescue mission two days later. I don't think anything Janeway experienced in Tuvok's mind after he became infected actually happened in universe. Hell, Valtane probably didn't even die.
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

I seem to recall Valtane in the group shot of Sulu's bridge at the end.

Kirk would trust Sulu. Sulu stuck his career on the line for Kirk to get Spock's body back to Vulcan.
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

One assumes that the relatively new USS Excelsior is the closest thing to a Federation flagship in this era with Sulu in command. It is likely still the largest ship in the fleet, and might still be the only one so far built. Why it wasn't there might be something to do with keeping the two fleets from even possibly starting a shooting war by an ichy finger on the button.

Though Sulu did try to rescue Kirk and McCoy, so one has to wonder how they got into the loop after running from Kang at the border.

Recall that Sulu dispatched a message to Spock shortly before the verdict was read for Kirk and McCoy ("Send to Commander, Enterprise..."); it's likely that Spock conferred privately with Sulu off-screen at some point while the Enterprise was traveling through Klingon space (as Excelsior was presumably close by).

--Sran
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

I'm thinking for the loop of getting information on the Peace Conference. I wonder if it was secret, or if it just wasn't known to Enterprise becaues they'd been running silent in Klingon space.
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

I'm thinking for the loop of getting information on the Peace Conference. I wonder if it was secret, or if it just wasn't known to Enterprise becaues they'd been running silent in Klingon space.

I'm thinking the Peace Conference was likely a closely-guarded secret, and only certain people were on a "need to know" basis. The Klingons demanded a neutral location and they would definitely not want any unauthorized personnel to be there.

I mean, if it had been public, someone might've even tried to assassinate the Federation President or something! Can you imagine?!? ;)
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

They had served together for many years; Kirk surely knew Sulu well enough that he could trust him.

Kirk's active career was much longer than the five years we saw in TOS. It would be pretty odd for him to have had less dealings with the likes of Cartwright than with Sulu. Things like ST:GEN show Kirk barely knows his former helmsman.

And Kirk has just been betrayed by somebody at least Spock trusted implicitly. It's not as if Kirk himself hasn't been betrayed that way: his lifelong friend Gary Mitchell once tried to kill him.

It's not a matter of Kirk finding people he can still trust - there are none. It's a matter of Kirk fighting paranoia rather than going paranoid himself. Sulu may be a traitor, but Kirk has to start somewhere.

I think that virus Tuvok had made up the whole "We'll go rescue Kirk and McCoy" bit from scratch. STVI states explicitly that it had been a month since Praxis exploded, yet Excelsior went on its abortive rescue mission two days later.

I'd think it more likely that the virus only made the exact timing go haywire. Not two days after Praxis, but more like two days or weeks after Gorkon's death.

Hell, Valtane probably didn't even die.

That would be consistent. The virus always made the victim imagine death; it sort of follows that the death would be imaginary. Everything else would be the brain trying to wrap random memories around the obligatory death in order to create a coherent narrative. And altering the flow of time would be a standard trick for the human brain, and supposedly the Vulcan one as well.

I wonder if it was secret, or if it just wasn't known to Enterprise becaues they'd been running silent in Klingon space.

There was quite an audience in the conference: not just Feds in blue sash speaking to Klingons in red and vice versa, but all sorts of seemingly random spectators representing whatever players in interstellar politics. Somewhat unlikely if this were just a hush-hush top-level negotiation between the leaders of the two fighting factions... But in line with the generally open UFP politics. The UFP President probably wanted the entire universe to hear in real time as he pontificated about the benefits of the Klingons agreeing to UFP aid.

I'd say "out of the loop" was Kirk's problem, and most of Starfleet was informed of the arrangements so that the logistics and security could be efficiently organized. However, both sides would also agree to keep security to a minimum, fearing that assassins would actually come from the ranks of the armed forces as had already happened once. (Which may be why Cartwright used an assassin that pretended to be part of the Klingon political delegation, rather than a secretive ninja or one of the security goons; the apparently unarmed delegates would be less closely monitored. Although visibly framing the Klingons for the deed was probably the more important factor there.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

Presumably, phasers only vaporise when on a certain high setting. Below that (and with a tightly focused beam) they can be used as a cutting beam (see also The Naked Time)

I wonder why the assasins onboard Gorkons Ship didn't just desintigrate people in their way as opposed to leaving lots of witnesses? I could see them not vaporizing the chancellor so his body could be easily found and ID'd, but anyone else should have been gone....
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

Kirk's active career was much longer than the five years we saw in TOS. It would be pretty odd for him to have had less dealings with the likes of Cartwright than with Sulu. Things like ST:GEN show Kirk barely knows his former helmsman.

I don't think not seeing Sulu's daughter for a number of years necessarily means that he "barely knew" Sulu. Just that they'd fallen out of touch as their lives and assignments had pulled them in different directions. But Chekov was obviously more in touch with the Sulu family.

And Kirk has just been betrayed by somebody at least Spock trusted implicitly. It's not as if Kirk himself hasn't been betrayed that way: his lifelong friend Gary Mitchell once tried to kill him.

To be fair, Mitchell was FAR from in his right mind when that happened. Valeris did what she did of her own volition.

It's not a matter of Kirk finding people he can still trust - there are none. It's a matter of Kirk fighting paranoia rather than going paranoid himself. Sulu may be a traitor, but Kirk has to start somewhere.

I doubt that Kirk ever thought that Sulu might be a traitor. They'd been through far too much together over the years for Kirk to believe that.
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

I wonder why the assasins onboard Gorkons Ship didn't just desintigrate people in their way as opposed to leaving lots of witnesses?

I'd say that was the point - the more witnesses, the better. Otherwise somebody might think it wasn't Starfleet doing the killing!

I doubt that Kirk ever thought that Sulu might be a traitor. They'd been through far too much together over the years for Kirk to believe that.

Depends a bit on how Kirk's mirror cells were firing up, I guess. After all, Sulu had several times witnessed Kirk flipping and committing atrocities, acts of war or just plain idiotic stunts. Sometimes this was all a ploy, sometimes there was a Doppergänger there, but sometimes it was Kirk actually losing his mind for a while. Sulu would have plenty of reason to believe that Kirk had gone traitor, which conversely would mean Kirk could not trust Sulu to join him in his "treason".

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

Sulu would have plenty of reason to believe that Kirk had gone traitor, which conversely would mean Kirk could not trust Sulu to join him in his "treason".

You seem to have a talent for reading scenes in the exact opposite way from which they were intended.
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

A mind meld is very personal and intimate. I think comparing a forced mind meld to rape is a reasonable comparison given what we know about this fictional alien thing.
I thought it was a really powerful scene, and very complicated morally. Kim Catrall really sells that scene, and makes Valeris interesting, enough so that I felt an attachment to the character even just from the one movie.
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

A few comments in this thread got me thinking: was TUC meant to be somewhat of a whodunnit, insofar as who was the onboard consiprator? Was the anti-Klingon banter from the main crew, etc..., meant to paint everyone as a possible leak? I'd never thought about this before, and frankly it's not very appealing. But since we're talking about poorly-written scripts, was this meant to be a part of it?
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

A few comments in this thread got me thinking: was TUC meant to be somewhat of a whodunnit, insofar as who was the onboard consiprator? Was the anti-Klingon banter from the main crew, etc..., meant to paint everyone as a possible leak?

Since there were never any clues that pointed to any of the TOS cast as a viable suspect, I would guess "No." And I'm sure that even if they'd tried that, none of the fans would've bought it, anyway.
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

^ What made Uhura's line about having had similar thoughts to Valeris so chilling: "Wow! Imagine if Uhura had been the traitor."
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

Either Uhura or Chekov could have made for a plausible traitor, and would have been of great benefit to the impact of that movie. Koenig always wanted to make the "ultimate boo!", to play the bad boy. A bit of character assassination in his final movie would have been a magnificent way to bow out!

Or it could have been a Murder in the Orient Express thing: everybody sprouts these racist comments, and we assume them to be red herrings all, but in fact none of them are... And the conspiracy hides in plain sight!

Of course, the original idea was to have a "series regular" be the bad guy (gal) anyway: the role of the traitor was written for the character of Saavik. Handing it over to Chekov would not have been that big a deal. Especially since the traitor is a patriot, and in the end sort of redeems herself (himself) by surrendering and assisting the (other) heroes. Although how cool would it have been if Chekov had been the one invited to the sickbay - and he had actually done the logical thing and phasered Kirk to oblivion! Hearing an "I'm sorry, Keptin..." with the same pained voice as in ST2 would have crowned it.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

Neither Uhura nor Chekov is my favorite character, but I would've outright despised that.
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

The Klingons were enemies of the Federation for a long time, and the crew had seen a lot of bad things out of them. I think it's easy to understand how someone who'd seen all that could want to see them destroyed, or at least not want their society to save them from themselves. It would've been really powerful if an original cast member, like Chekov, had been the traitor.
 
Re: The Valeris "Trap" scene is just so poorly written it's ridiculous

The conspiracy was the weakest part of TUC, and unfortunately for the movie, it takes up a good amount of time in the film.
I thought it was weak that only Kirk worked out there was a conspiracy, and he did it after an inmate told him someone on the outside wants you out of the way. The only other special info he had was that he was innocent. Based on this he said they had to escape and warn the galaxy.
 
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