These are the Voyages

[Kobayshi Maru]

Well, take comfort. At least we know that thanks to the JJ Abrams film, all the events we saw portrayed on Enterprise still did take place and even if the precious "prime universe" has been aborted/sidelined/closed off/locked/whatever, this part of previous Trek lore remains intact.

(Though, I will admit I do take some pleasure in the knowledge that this is something of a kick in the pants to all the Trek "Purists"/Enterprise haters out there. )

No offense, but what does any of that have to do with TATV?

None taken.

In a thread dedicated to bashing the finale of the series, it just felt like a positive ray of light to include given how much some people just didn't care for the Abrams films. As bad as "These Are The Voyages" may have been, it's still part of the canon.

And the films aren't?

 

[doubleohfive]

Sorry -- my mistake. I meant to write -- as bad as "These Are The Voyages" may have been, it's still retained as part of the new timeline, even if the "Prime" Timeline has been aborted... which I believe I stated in my first post.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Sorry -- my mistake. I meant to write -- as bad as "These Are The Voyages" may have been, it's still retained as part of the new timeline, even if the "Prime" Timeline has been aborted... which I believe I stated in my first post.

I see. I don't much care for the new timeline. Vulcan destroyed because some idiot with a time machine didn't think that he could use it to warn Romulus instead. Basing a movie on someone being a freaking moron is not a good plot device.

 

[Melakon]

even if the "Prime" Timeline has been aborted...

I prefer to think that it's still going on, though we might not hear about it again for a very long time.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

even if the "Prime" Timeline has been aborted...

I prefer to think that it's still going on, though we might not hear about it again for a very long time.

What's been done can still be undone. What if someone with a ship even more powerful than Nero's travels back in time to stop him? Anything's possible.

 

[Melakon]

Or, it continues post-Janeway, and all anyone knows is Romulus was destroyed and Spock disappeared.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, take comfort. At least we know that thanks to the JJ Abrams film, all the events we saw portrayed on Enterprise still did take place and even if the precious "prime universe" has been aborted/sidelined/closed off/locked/whatever, this part of previous Trek lore remains intact.

(Though, I will admit I do take some pleasure in the knowledge that this is something of a kick in the pants to all the Trek "Purists"/Enterprise haters out there. )

No offense, but what does any of that have to do with TATV?

None taken.

In a thread dedicated to bashing the finale of the series, it just felt like a positive ray of light to include given how much some people just didn't care for the Abrams films. As bad as "These Are The Voyages" may have been, it's still part of the canon.

Well, ok, but I don't think anyone was arguing that it wasn't part of the canon, just that it sucked.

Now however, with that said, it IS arguable that the events of TATV can be chalked up to Riker's possibly inaccurate holodeck program, given how different the characters act as opposed to how we saw them for the previous four seasons, and other idiosyncrasies in the episode that make no sense. It's entirely possible that those events did not happen exactly the way the program presented them, for the simple fact that we were seeing only a holographic representation of the events and not the real thing.

 

[doubleohfive]

1) I misspoke earlier. I didn't mean "canon." I meant it's the only part of the "Prime" timeline untouched or unaffected by Nero's shenanigans in the new films.

2) I certainly concur that the events depicted in "These Are The Voyages" could be viewed the way you suggest - as a result of the holodeck program being factually inaccurate or incomplete (another trait the episode shares with Marc Cushman's self-published books of the same name.)

 

[Melakon]

I did notice on the recent second viewing that Jolene Blalock's T'Pol certainly seemed out of character, though maybe she had mellowed 6 years after the events of "Terra Prime".

 

[Dukhat]

I remember reading somewhere that she did that on purpose as a protest for how pissed off she was with the episode and how the focus was on Riker and Troi instead of on the ENT cast.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Or, it continues post-Janeway, and all anyone knows is Romulus was destroyed and Spock disappeared.

In that case it means that changing the past doesn't destroy the present but creates a new timeline/reality and that means that the children of time still exist along with Edith Keeler and savage Molly.

 

[DonIago]

Or some means of traveling into the past lead to alternate timelines while others do not.

 

[Melakon]

I remember reading somewhere that she did that on purpose as a protest for how pissed off she was with the episode and how the focus was on Riker and Troi instead of on the ENT cast.

I remember reading she was upset about it, and I think she's right. The NX is playing second fiddle to a TNG episode based on a previous episode where we already know the outcome. I still can't understand how they ever thought it was an appropriate series conclusion.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It's because of their TNG boner, they thought everyone would have one! YES.

But really, no.

 

[Dukhat]

Well according to Berman, they were only given a short time to come up with a story and get it filmed, and they also were not given a two-hour finale, only one. Still, they needed to write the thing, get TNG costumes made, build TNG sets, have a CGI Ent-D and asteroid field created, and get a bunch of alien makeup and wardrobe stuff made. I'm not sure what the status was of the Ent-E sets and costumes from Nemesis, but if any of that were available (including the Ent-E model which could have stood in for the Titan), wouldn't it have made more sense for the finale to be post-Nemesis Riker and Troi? It sure would have saved them a ton of money and time.

Here's a scenario: Riker, Troi and the Titan are in orbit of Romulus post-Nemesis, working with the government to sign a peace treaty. During this time, it is revealed that the wreckage of the NX-01 is on Romulus, including its flight recorder. Riker and Troi use the Titan's holodeck to recreate and observe the last moments of the NX-01 and her crew, which up until then was a complete mystery. They are simply observers, not engaging with the program in any way, nor is the story about Riker. It's a faithful representation of the last days of the ENT crew based on the flight recorder info. And all of the cast dies in a dramatic way, not just some ham-fisted crap like what happened to Trip.

Wouldn't that have worked better? And it took be about a minute to write. Plus, it also even gives closure to the 24th century post-Nemesis.

 

[TheSubCommander]

Objectively speaking, aside from Trips, stupid death, TATV is not a horrible episode, NOW,IMHO. It's just a mediocre one to me, with the thing that truly outraging me is Trip's death. This is because the context of the shock that it is the finale is no longer there, like when I saw it in first run, and I have to admit THEN I really was pissed. But nowadays, I personally think it is best seen back to back with TNG's The Pegasus, and not thought of as the ENT finale, but rather a TNG episode. As far as I am concerned, Terra Prime is the true ENT finale.

Also, I like to think of TATV as a one off "maybe a historically accurate, maybe not" account of the ENT era seen through he eyes of Riker and Troi, much like the season finale of Babylon 5's Deconstructing of Falling Stars was, rather than actual canon of the ENT show. In fact, with as much monkeying around witht he Temporal cold war went on during the show, it could easily be but one of many timelines, too.

 

[ChristopherPike]

Having recently rewatched "The Pegasus", I'm not sure "These are the Voyages..." even works alongside it. I'd be curious to hear from anyone who's watched them back-to-back. Or even tried to make a fan-edit, and work out where certain scenes from the Enterprise episode, are even supposed to fall.

One thing I did notice, is how Riker is injured at one point Bat'leth training with Worf, because he's so preoccupied haunted by his past with Pressman.


I sometimes wonder if they didn't have the wrong story from TNG to try and drop back into years later. Consider that right before "The Pegasus" was "Parallels", a show that Brannon Braga wrote. Where whatever changes had to happen - because you can't really roll back time, and get the actors to make believe it's still 1993 in 2005 - can be more easily be explained away.

My pet-theory is that had there been a miraculous change of heart, within a few months of the finale going out and a Season 5 been ordered... the first new episode would've basically had to pick-up with Riker and Troi leaving the holodeck. Revive the Temporal Cold War for an episode, so when they get to the Enterprise D bridge, we see a 24th Century full of more obvious continuity errors - all stemming from the history shown on the holodeck being wrong.

 

[StarMan]

Well according to Berman, they were only given a short time to come up with a story and get it filmed, and they also were not given a two-hour finale, only one. Still, they needed to write the thing, get TNG costumes made, build TNG sets, have a CGI Ent-D and asteroid field created, and get a bunch of alien makeup and wardrobe stuff made. I'm not sure what the status was of the Ent-E sets and costumes from Nemesis, but if any of that were available (including the Ent-E model which could have stood in for the Titan), wouldn't it have made more sense for the finale to be post-Nemesis Riker and Troi? It sure would have saved them a ton of money and time.

Here's a scenario: Riker, Troi and the Titan are in orbit of Romulus post-Nemesis, working with the government to sign a peace treaty. During this time, it is revealed that the wreckage of the NX-01 is on Romulus, including its flight recorder. Riker and Troi use the Titan's holodeck to recreate and observe the last moments of the NX-01 and her crew, which up until then was a complete mystery. They are simply observers, not engaging with the program in any way, nor is the story about Riker. It's a faithful representation of the last days of the ENT crew based on the flight recorder info. And all of the cast dies in a dramatic way, not just some ham-fisted crap like what happened to Trip.

Wouldn't that have worked better? And it took be about a minute to write. Plus, it also even gives closure to the 24th century post-Nemesis.

Thumbs up, most certainly! The concept alone is vastly superior to the eye-rolling fest they concocted.

 

[Melakon]

TATV would have worked as a finale if Riker and Troi hadn't been in it at all. But Bed & Breakfast couldn't emotionally distance themselves from their egos, and Enterprise suffered for it.

"Terra Prime" would almost work, except the final scene with Trip and T'Pol is sort of downbeat. If Archer's big speech at Starfleet Command had been moved to the final scene, it would have been a more uplifting conclusion.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

TATV would have worked as a finale if Riker and Troi hadn't been in it at all. But Bed & Breakfast couldn't emotionally distance themselves from their egos, and Enterprise suffered for it.

"Terra Prime" would almost work, except the final scene with Trip and T'Pol is sort of downbeat. If Archer's big speech at Starfleet Command had been moved to the final scene, it would have been a more uplifting conclusion.

As long as he didn't bring up the gazelle.