ST III: Self destruct question

[HigHurtenflurst]

00 Destruct 0

In TMP Kirk tells Scotty to be ready for General Order 12 (or whatever it was) and Scott explains "when that much matter and anti-matter come together, oh yes..." implying an earth shattering kaboom that would destroy V'GER. Yet in TSFS the destruct sequence seems to start not in the engine room, but the bridge itself and barely even shatters the saucer.

Now I know he didn't want to destroy the BOP in the blast, but was it ever officially, or in the novelization, explained? Was it a different destruct sequence than "general order whatever?"

Inquiring nerds want to know!

 

[CTM]

In the novelization, IIRC, they had two methods (also IIRC in Mr. Scotts Guide to the Enterprise): One a matter/anti-matter detonation - clearing out a wide swath; and the second equivalently a scuttling... one that would destroy the ship but not clear out nearby space too. The latter is what they used in the movie/novelization.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

That never was clear, was it? I remember Scotty also saying in some episode or other that the ship would "...go up in the biggest explosion since...". It always did imply something really immense. Even the fast-study Khan said "...your ship flares up like an exploding sun within minutes!"

Actually, I'm sorry something like that wasn't finally seen. What a way to go!

 

[drt]

I think it was just in Mr. Scott's Guide.

 

[BillJ]

That never was clear, was it? I remember Scotty also saying in some episode or other that the ship would "...go up in the biggest explosion since...".

"The Naked Time"

SCOTT: Captain, you can't mix matter and antimatter cold. We'd go up in the biggest explosion since...

***

KIRK: Don't tell me that again, Science Officer! It's a theory. It's possible. We may go up into the biggest ball of fire since the last sun in these parts exploded, but we've got to take that one in ten thousand chance!

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

That never was clear, was it? I remember Scotty also saying in some episode or other that the ship would "...go up in the biggest explosion since...".

"The Naked Time"

SCOTT: Captain, you can't mix matter and antimatter cold. We'd go up in the biggest explosion since...

***

KIRK: Don't tell me that again, Science Officer! It's a theory. It's possible. We may go up into the biggest ball of fire since the last sun in these parts exploded, but we've got to take that one in ten thousand chance!

That's it, yeah! Thanks for being my memory for me. I've had a tendency to hit mental roadblocks lately when travelling what I thought for well-worn roads.

But again, as you transcribed, a reference comparing the ships' destruction to an exploding star! Hard to write into a film, I suppose (the heroes obviously couldn't be anywhere near it), but pretty awesome to imagine.

 

[HigHurtenflurst]

Thanks guys. It was always referenced as this huge release of energy, which is consistent with my minimal understanding of physics, and it made ST III seem wrong. Plus, I don't recall which episode, but Kirk once initiated self destruct using the same exact destruct code sequence, (I think), and IIRC it was hinted at being an antimatter explosion...

 

[BillJ]

Thanks guys. It was always referenced as this huge release of energy, which is consistent with my minimal understanding of physics, and it made ST III seem wrong. Plus, I don't recall which episode, but Kirk once initiated self destruct using the same exact destruct code sequence, (I think), and IIRC it was hinted at being an antimatter explosion...

I don't think they actually reference or hint at the type of explosion:

KIRK: Computer, destruct sequence. Are you ready to copy?
COMPUTER: Working.
KIRK: Prepare to verify destruct sequence code one. Computer, this is Captain James Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Destruct sequence one, code one, one A.
COMPUTER Voice and code one, one A verified and correct. Sequence one complete.
KIRK: Mister Spock.
SPOCK: This is Commander Spock, science officer. Destruct sequence number two, code one, one A, two B.
COMPUTER: Voice and code verified and correct. Sequence two complete.
KIRK: Mister Scott.
SCOTT: This is Lieutenant Commander Scott, chief engineering officer of the USS Enterprise. Destruct sequence number three, code one B, two B, three.
COMPUTER: Voice and code one B, two B, three verified and correct. Destruct sequence completed and engaged. Awaiting final code for thirty second countdown.
KIRK: Mister Spock, has the ship returned to the course set for it by my orders?
SPOCK: Negative, Captain. We are still headed directly for Cheron.
COMPUTER: Destruct sequence engaged. Awaiting final code for thirty second countdown.
KIRK: Computer, this is Captain James Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Begin thirty second countdown. Code zero, zero, zero, destruct zero.
COMPUTER: Thirty seconds. twenty nine, twenty eight, twenty seven, (break) twenty five seconds,
KIRK: Let's see you prevent the computer from fulfilling my commands.
COMPUTER: Twenty seconds,
KIRK: From five to zero, no command in the universe can prevent the computer from fulfilling its destruct orders.
COMPUTER: Fifteen seconds,
KIRK: You can use your will to drag this ship to Cheron. But I command the computer. Mine is the final command.
COMPUTER: Ten, nine, eight, seven, six,
BELE: I agree!
KIRK: Computer. This is Captain James Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Code one, two, three continuity. Abort destruct order. Repeat code one, two, three continuity. Abort destruct order.
COMPUTER: Destruct order aborted. Destruct order aborted.

 

[Praxius]

All I know about self destruct sequences in Star Trek is what I read from the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual.

This is not directly from the Manual as I no longer have it (gave it away when I moved from Canada) but it's basically the same diagram:

Original Source:
http://fsd.trekships.org/operations/autodestruct.html

Basically what is seen in ST III are the explosions of the ordinance packages throughout the saucer.

Why the Enterprise didn't end up obliterated and crashed into the planet could be due to the damage from the attack causing a few things to not do their job properly.

 

[Timo]

Mr Scott's Guide specifies this as "Destruct Zero" being the code word for the method where the ship shatters but does not explode. A "Destruct One" would supposedly create the big antimatter blast, and there might be further options available.

As for the other strings of numbers and letters, I doubt they are "secret passwords" as such. Self-destruct wouldn't call for password protection, merely assertion of authority; the numbers and letters may specify which authority the speaker wants to ride on ("I'm the skipper"; "I'm the former Chief Engineer, but you can see I still have all the required clearances"; "I'm the Science Dept representative, the SCO is mostly dead or something and I'm standing in for him"). Clearly, scuttling would be something any officer should be able to initiate, as it would often take place in situations where many top officers would be dead or incapacitated; the computer must maintain a record of some sort on who is entitled to do it and in which order (so that the CO can override the Ensign from Gunnery Control who in panic wants to abort), but the list can't be too exclusive. These code numbers would probably relate to that list.

TNG codephrases are different. Much less of that mechanistic formality there - and when Picard and Riker identify themselves, they seem to combine voiceprint ID with changing passwords, probably because TNG era computers accept self destruct commands from basically any location (rather than just the specific bridge or engineering console) and have to be more careful with what they accept.

Why the Enterprise didn't end up obliterated and crashed into the planet could be due to the damage from the attack causing a few things to not do their job properly.

Quite so. People sometimes snicker at "self-destruct being offline", as it's clear that starships blow up very easily and the real effort goes into preventing them from doing that. But self-destruct is a thing you want to control. Kirk never had suicidal tendencies: all his TOS "threats of scuttling" were bluff, as we learned in "By Any Other Name" where he refused to even consider blowing up the ship, despite the fate of the entire galaxy being at stake. This considered, I doubt he would have blown up the ship in ST:TMP, either... He would just have used Scotty's End Of Everything button as an ace in his sleeve in negotiations with V'Ger. Picard, too, had every reason not to blow up his ship manually in, say, ST:NEM, once automated scuttling failed and there was no option of evacuating first.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

all his TOS "threats of scuttling" were bluff, as we learned in "By Any Other Name" where he refused to even consider blowing up the ship, despite the fate of the entire galaxy being at stake.

It really wouldn't make sense to destroy the Enterprise in that scenario. It would be, at least, three-hundred years before the Kelvans would be able to return, so they weren't some immediate threat to the Federation.

 

[Christopher]

I've always liked to assume that the really huge eruption from the Genesis Planet as the Bird of Prey warps away is the result of the Enterprise's antimatter bottles finally spiralling down to the surface and exploding on impact.

It did always bug me that the self-destruct in TSFS was a conventional explosion starting in the saucer rather than an antimatter explosion from the engines -- though it did look very cool at the time. But what bugged me most is that the self-destruct sequence used the exact same passwords from "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield." Fifteen-odd years later and they never updated their passwords? That makes no sense, especially considering that in "Battlefield," the command officers recited those passwords in the hearing of hostile aliens. They should've reset the destruct passwords immediately afterward. So reusing the same passwords always felt to me like a gratuitous continuity nod at the expense of good sense.

 

[MacLeod]

^True about the passowrds, but itts not unreasanble to think that the codes are not enough, it requires things like voice print to be correct also.

As for why there isn't a M/A-M expolsion, it does make sense for there to be a backup to the self-destruct system i.e Ordinary explosive charges, there might be times where you don't want a M/A-M explsion occuring it might cause damage to a nearby planets ecosystem.

 

[BillJ]

So reusing the same passwords always felt to me like a gratuitous continuity nod at the expense of good sense.

I liked the callback.

Besides, they may not be passwords. It could be reasoned that any random person can't go around blowing up starships using those codes. That the computer has to actually recognize the authority of the persons involved.

 

[Christopher]

^True about the passowrds, but itts not unreasanble to think that the codes are not enough, it requires things like voice print to be correct also.

Except that the codes were delivered by different people -- Kirk, Scott, and Chekov rather than Kirk, Spock, and Scott respectively. And it was "almost a completely new Enterprise," which means it probably had a different computer and a different self-destruct mechanism. So there's no reason for it to have the same codes, except gratuitous self-referentialism.

As for why there isn't a M/A-M expolsion, it does make sense for there to be a backup to the self-destruct system i.e Ordinary explosive charges, there might be times where you don't want a M/A-M explsion occuring it might cause damage to a nearby planets ecosystem.

That's my rationale -- they were beaming down to the planet and Kirk wanted to make sure they weren't endangered by an M/AM explosion. While the gamma rays would've been absorbed by the planet's atmosphere, they would've been re-emitted as ultraviolet in levels that would probably have been fatal to anyone on the surface, not to mention producing lots of toxic nitrogen oxides and wrecking the ozone layer.

Of course, if that's so, then the ship falling into the atmosphere and the antimatter bottles detonating on impact (as I speculate) would not be according to Kirk's plan.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Regarding the reason why the self-destruct system keeps changing from film, to episode, to novel or whatever (they don't just change the passwords, they change the entire way for officers to destroy a ship. Sometimes we see three or more of them enter codes, sometimes it's just the captain and XO giving verbal authorization, sometimes it's ONLY the captain): I'm sure Starfleet does this on purpose. It's a lot harder for enemy agents to infiltrate and destroy Starfleet vessels if their information is out of date.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Except that the codes were delivered by different people -- Kirk, Scott, and Chekov rather than Kirk, Spock, and Scott respectively.

Which was probably becuase that was the Enterprise Command structure before they returned to Spacedock.

 

[trekshark]

the thing with the non antimatter method of self destruct is that there is still a bunch of antimatter on board
I suppose if it was vented out into space it'd go up in small explosions as it came into contact with dust, micrometeors, interstellar gasses, etc instead of one big boom but it still has to be accounted for

 

[BillJ]

Except that the codes were delivered by different people -- Kirk, Scott, and Chekov rather than Kirk, Spock, and Scott respectively.

Which was probably becuase that was the Enterprise Command structure before they returned to Spacedock.

This is what I figured, they hadn't updated the Enterprise computers. Scott identifies himself as a Commander and Chief Engineer, and Chekov identifies himself as "acting science officer". It seems the destruct commands are generic and it comes down to whether or not a certain officer has the correct credentials to order the process.

 

[Christopher]

the thing with the non antimatter method of self destruct is that there is still a bunch of antimatter on board
I suppose if it was vented out into space it'd go up in small explosions as it came into contact with dust, micrometeors, interstellar gasses, etc instead of one big boom but it still has to be accounted for

Presumably a starship's antimatter bottles would be robust enough to withstand any conventional explosion without losing containment.

However, loose amounts of antiparticles floating around in space are no big deal. Space is actually full of antiparticles already; there are diffuse clouds of antiparticles caught in the magnetic fields of Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, and other planets, and there have actually been proposals made for harvesting them as a potential fuel source. Isolated antiparticles floating around in vacuum pose no real hazard, because they're so widely scattered. Sure, if the odd antiproton collided with your ship, there'd be a gamma ray and a few pions and neutrinos radiated from the impact, but that's nothing compared to the deadly soup of radiation that pervades space already. You might as well worry about getting hit by a raindrop while water-skiing.

The thing about antimatter is that it's only really dangerous when concentrated. It might actually be hard to make an antimatter bomb explode with as much power as a nuclear bomb. Sure, the explosive potential is dozens of times greater, but that's the whole problem -- the initial blast would be so powerful that it would tend to blow the remaining matter and antimatter apart almost instantly, so they'd stop annihilating and the explosion would fizzle out. You'd need to find a way to keep the reactants confined throughout the reaction, yet still release the energy at the end of the process. Or else pack them densely enough and collide them forcefully enough that the whole mass (and antimass) would annihilate pretty much all at once.