But the Klingon crew had all beamed over to the Enterprise. And if they could beam out, then the Enterprise team could beam in.
ST III: Self destruct question
- Thread starter HigHurtenflurst
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But the Klingon crew had all beamed over to the Enterprise. And if they could beam out, then the Enterprise team could beam in.
They had to find Spock and Saavik first?
That, too. Or at least they have to find Spock and Saavik before the Klingons down on the surface have time to react, and there might be tricks to slow down their response.
But it's really a tango that takes three, no matter what. The heroes must
a) lure the Klingon boarding party away from their ship, to make a later takeover possible
b) make sure the Klingon ship doesn't fire at the helpless Enterprise until the heroes are all safely offboard
c) rescue the surface team
d) eventually escape from the lethal surface
Now, there aren't too many ways to do that. Most attempts at commandeering the Klingon ship would end in failure, because Klingons are extremely trigger-happy, the Enterprise is a goner, and the only weapon at the heroes' disposal is the transporter beam. Really, sidestepping to the planet is the safest way: it allows the Enterprise herself to be turned into a weapon that can defeat a horde of Klingons, it presents no target for Kruge at the helm of the BoP, and it takes our heroes to their next target, the surface team.
Trying to lure the Klingons into dropping their shields and then beaming them all to space would probably fail: even one surviving Klingon could then kill all the heroes in their helpless starship. Trying to beam aboard the BoP would pit our outnumbered heroes against a foe with a home field advantage. And Kruge would have none of Kirk's suggestions of sending over a negotiator, or whatever underhanded stalling trick he might come up with.
There's a fun case to the point, although unintended by TPTB: in DS9 "Battle Lines", a runabout is compromised and has to eject her antimatter bottle before crashing. We then see the crashed craft represented by a full-scale (if partial) prop, and there's debris next to it. This includes a bit that cannot possibly have come from the exterior of the runabout herself - it's the nacelle of the TNG shuttle prop, and no part of the runabout is shaped like that. So it must have come from the interior of the runabout... Apparently, the heroes crashed right next to their own jettisoned antimatter pod!
Timo Saloniemi
But it's really a tango that takes three, no matter what. The heroes must
a) lure the Klingon boarding party away from their ship, to make a later takeover possible
b) make sure the Klingon ship doesn't fire at the helpless Enterprise until the heroes are all safely offboard
c) rescue the surface team
d) eventually escape from the lethal surface
Now, there aren't too many ways to do that. Most attempts at commandeering the Klingon ship would end in failure, because Klingons are extremely trigger-happy, the Enterprise is a goner, and the only weapon at the heroes' disposal is the transporter beam. Really, sidestepping to the planet is the safest way: it allows the Enterprise herself to be turned into a weapon that can defeat a horde of Klingons, it presents no target for Kruge at the helm of the BoP, and it takes our heroes to their next target, the surface team.
Trying to lure the Klingons into dropping their shields and then beaming them all to space would probably fail: even one surviving Klingon could then kill all the heroes in their helpless starship. Trying to beam aboard the BoP would pit our outnumbered heroes against a foe with a home field advantage. And Kruge would have none of Kirk's suggestions of sending over a negotiator, or whatever underhanded stalling trick he might come up with.
Yeah, the good old chestnut: "Why don't they make entire airplanes as strong as those black boxes?"...
There's a fun case to the point, although unintended by TPTB: in DS9 "Battle Lines", a runabout is compromised and has to eject her antimatter bottle before crashing. We then see the crashed craft represented by a full-scale (if partial) prop, and there's debris next to it. This includes a bit that cannot possibly have come from the exterior of the runabout herself - it's the nacelle of the TNG shuttle prop, and no part of the runabout is shaped like that. So it must have come from the interior of the runabout... Apparently, the heroes crashed right next to their own jettisoned antimatter pod!
Timo Saloniemi
It is mentioned all the way back in "The Man Trap" that the Enterprise has sensors that can detect the heat of a match lit, or a human body, from orbit. So I would not expect them to have much difficulty finding the people on the planet.
The BoP's sensors are apparently a bit less sophisticated, since they are unable to detect that the Enterprise is almost completely unmanned, so it's a little less clear how the Klingons are able to find the people on the planet. Perhaps they detect Saavik's communicator signal.
Me neither - but the point is, dialogue doesn't indicate they would have found anybody yet. Trek sensors don't really work over the horizon, at least not very well: bedrock prevents transport and reliable scanning in most cases. So Kirk, approaching along what looks like very low orbit, must clear the horizon first to get the lock on David and pals. And it seems he's doing this relying on some sort of "external" advance information, such as knowledge of the beam-down coordinates, or else he wouldn't end up mere kellicams from the Klingons.
Or hobbled by the cloak.
Timo Saloniemi
The BoP wasn't cloaked when the Enterprise gang laid the self-destruct trap. The Klingons still had no idea the ship was deserted.
Well, by that time, the Klingon ship had been shot up pretty badly...
Apparently, her transporters were down, too, else why accept Enterprise transporters for the boarding party? But those got fixed later. Sensors might still have been down, as Maltz didn't realize there was a human and a Vulcan in transport rather than the expected single Klingon!
Timo Saloniemi
Apparently, her transporters were down, too, else why accept Enterprise transporters for the boarding party? But those got fixed later. Sensors might still have been down, as Maltz didn't realize there was a human and a Vulcan in transport rather than the expected single Klingon!
Timo Saloniemi
Or they simply triangulated the communications signal coming from the ground to the Klingon ship...
But still the dialogue mentions none of this. To the contrary, the heroes are not aware of any Klingon presence. Apparently they aren't aware of David's status or whereabouts, either. All they know is that they are at Genesis, and the Grissom, expected to be present, is curiously absent - and Kirk continues hailing her, so presumably Sulu also attempts to find her by going to her last known position, or her otherwise estimated position.
It seems Kirk's approach to the coordinates where the BoP is waiting is "passive", preplanned and not influenced by new data or local conditions. Which is quite expected, as Kirk knows about Spock's coffin soft-landing: where he got that information from is not revealed, but he would no doubt also have gotten the exact coordinates of the coffin on planet Genesis. If he's looking for the Grissom, that's the place to start looking... If not, that's what they came for anyway.
Timo Saloniemi
It seems Kirk's approach to the coordinates where the BoP is waiting is "passive", preplanned and not influenced by new data or local conditions. Which is quite expected, as Kirk knows about Spock's coffin soft-landing: where he got that information from is not revealed, but he would no doubt also have gotten the exact coordinates of the coffin on planet Genesis. If he's looking for the Grissom, that's the place to start looking... If not, that's what they came for anyway.
Timo Saloniemi
Did anyone else have a fangasm when they used the same destruct codes as in LTBYLB?
Kirk seemed pretty confident of the Klingons' inability to detect these things. It seems more likely to me to be a technological limitation of the BoP rather than fortuitous battle damage that Kirk couldn't easily assess under the circumstances.
Was Enterprise in orbit in STID? Lol.
I think the idea of "pre-set scuttling charges" is kinda dumb, it would make more sense if the self-desruct in ST3 was the primary hull phasers overloading, it would sort of fit the visual effect of the hull sort of dissolving away.
I think the idea of "pre-set scuttling charges" is kinda dumb, it would make more sense if the self-desruct in ST3 was the primary hull phasers overloading, it would sort of fit the visual effect of the hull sort of dissolving away.
Yeah; given the sorts of speeds that starships can get, and for that matter that Enterprise and Vengeance were more or less racing towards Earth, it's not unreasonable that the ship would be a fairly short fall away from hitting Earth.
That it was right in a line for Earth is remarkable, but, there's limited dramatic potential in ``if we don't get the engines turned on in fifteen minutes we're gonna get as close as 35,000 miles from the surface of the Earth and then swing away from it again!''
IIRC, Enterprise leaves SpaceDock for a mission to Qo'NoS, a trip of an unspecified duration but one that should take a little while, for dramatic purposes if nothing else...there is much conversation among the principal cast during this journey. Warp drive goes out within shuttle range of Qo'Nos. Vengeance arrives, Marcus dictates to Kirk, warp drive is repaired enough to warp away from Vengeance. Within seconds of entering warp, Enterprise is blasted out of warp by Vengeance. Soooo, the question this raises is, is Qo'Nos just seconds from Earth at maximum warp?
I'm sorry, I got away from the main point of Enterprise losing power and immediately spiraling into Earth's gravity well, but my question remains.
I'm sorry, I got away from the main point of Enterprise losing power and immediately spiraling into Earth's gravity well, but my question remains.
Well, the turbolifts of the giant ship are lighting-fast, going from shuttlebay to bridge in two seconds or so (STXI), except when they don't (certain scenes in ST:ID). But this obscures the fact that the ship is gigantic.
And for some reason, Carol Marcus decides to run rather than take a turbolift to deliver the word of warning to the bridge. Logically, this should mean that the time interval from the moment she realizes she has to warn Kirk to the moment she does warn him is about two hours, including at least two stops at various cafeterias in between to catch some food, drink and tri-ox.
As for the coincidence of the chase ending right next to Earth, it could be argued Marcus wanted it to end that way, and it would be his choice. But it takes some imagination to find the arguments... After all,
1) Marcus wants to ignite a war, but he doesn't want to highlight his own role in it. Hence he scrambles the Vengeange with a mercenary rather than Starfleet crew when Kirk informs him that Harrison won't be killed but jailed instead. So why would he let anybody near Earth see him involved in the fighting?
2) So Kirk "went renegade". Some will believe that claim, others won't. Blatantly showing the Vengeance pummeling the helpless Enterprise won't convince the latter party of Kirk's guilt, but it may cause some believers to at least consider having second thoughts - why is Marcus killing somebody he has already defeated and rendered harmless, and destroying a valuable starship to boot? Having the battle in deep space, out of sight, would at least avoid provoking those second thoughts.
3) Marcus seems confident that Earth will not help Kirk. This is logical, as he factually commands Earth, or at least her military response. Why worry at all about letting Kirk reach Earth, then? Why have a chase? If he's instead worried about letting Khan anywhere near Earth, then clearly he shouldn't allow Khan to get to the Moon, either.
Timo Saloniemi
And for some reason, Carol Marcus decides to run rather than take a turbolift to deliver the word of warning to the bridge. Logically, this should mean that the time interval from the moment she realizes she has to warn Kirk to the moment she does warn him is about two hours, including at least two stops at various cafeterias in between to catch some food, drink and tri-ox.
As for the coincidence of the chase ending right next to Earth, it could be argued Marcus wanted it to end that way, and it would be his choice. But it takes some imagination to find the arguments... After all,
1) Marcus wants to ignite a war, but he doesn't want to highlight his own role in it. Hence he scrambles the Vengeange with a mercenary rather than Starfleet crew when Kirk informs him that Harrison won't be killed but jailed instead. So why would he let anybody near Earth see him involved in the fighting?
2) So Kirk "went renegade". Some will believe that claim, others won't. Blatantly showing the Vengeance pummeling the helpless Enterprise won't convince the latter party of Kirk's guilt, but it may cause some believers to at least consider having second thoughts - why is Marcus killing somebody he has already defeated and rendered harmless, and destroying a valuable starship to boot? Having the battle in deep space, out of sight, would at least avoid provoking those second thoughts.
3) Marcus seems confident that Earth will not help Kirk. This is logical, as he factually commands Earth, or at least her military response. Why worry at all about letting Kirk reach Earth, then? Why have a chase? If he's instead worried about letting Khan anywhere near Earth, then clearly he shouldn't allow Khan to get to the Moon, either.
Timo Saloniemi
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