Maybe Saavik was traumatized enough over Peter Preston's death and the other carnage we witnessed in TWOK that she chose to de-emphasize her Romulan heritage and act more Vulcan.
A Loose End from Star Trek III..?
- Thread starter LMFAOschwarz
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It would have been interesting to see a continued contrast with the same events that make Saavik (whether played by Curtis or Alley) colder and more dedicated to logic make Spock embrace the wisdom of things beyond logic. Perhaps eventually leading to that confrontation in VI with her in fact taking part in the conspiracy because it was to her the only logical move to be made.
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I like this idea. This development could even have played a part in TFF. In a way it would pre-empt T'Pol's constant deferment to the Vulcan Science Council, if Saavik was on the Enterprise to say that the impossible was unworthy of consideration, forcing Spock to take a more open view, creating a greater contrast with Kirk's scepticism (which of course would be a great irony).
To me Kirstie's Alley just portayed Saavik as a human. If she didn't have pointed ears you never would have guessed. Thats not to say i disliked her performance. Alley's beautiful and has charisma.
But Robin Curtis is beautiful too (not with the same presence as Alley though). Her Saavik was more accurate as a Vulcan but not probably as appealing (as frankly Vulcans really aren't).
I think if Alley had reprised her role Nimoy would have had no choice but to continue to play the character as human-like.
I'd say its difficult to make full Vulcans stoic and logical but also somewhat likeable. I think TOS was successful with Sarek and Valeris and Berman with Tuvok and the other VOY Vulcans. But if I just saw the Vulcans in TNG, DS9 and ENT I wouldn't have been all that 'devastated' to see Nero burn their planet instead of any other.
But Robin Curtis is beautiful too (not with the same presence as Alley though). Her Saavik was more accurate as a Vulcan but not probably as appealing (as frankly Vulcans really aren't).
I think if Alley had reprised her role Nimoy would have had no choice but to continue to play the character as human-like.
I'd say its difficult to make full Vulcans stoic and logical but also somewhat likeable. I think TOS was successful with Sarek and Valeris and Berman with Tuvok and the other VOY Vulcans. But if I just saw the Vulcans in TNG, DS9 and ENT I wouldn't have been all that 'devastated' to see Nero burn their planet instead of any other.
If we accept Saavik as part Romulan, then Alley works in the role.
Also, note that, in the pictures at the top of the Memory Alpha page, Kirstie Alley looks much more stoic than Robin Curtis! (Neither photo is very flattering, and Curtis's 80s poodle-top-and-mullet hair looks awful.)
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Saavik
Also, note that, in the pictures at the top of the Memory Alpha page, Kirstie Alley looks much more stoic than Robin Curtis! (Neither photo is very flattering, and Curtis's 80s poodle-top-and-mullet hair looks awful.)
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Saavik
I've never had my son killed by a Klingon bastard and heard it reported to me over an audio link by an emotionless Robin Curtis, but if that ever did happen I'm not sure I'd react all that differently.
Any of those three killed would have had a similar reaction I think. Saavik's death might have been the least trauma for Kirk, but it would have effected him as she's be one of his crew (well Spock's crew). David was his son, but he hardly knew David. He was family. And Spock had already been dead (mostly) up to that point, but losing him again when the entire point was to get him to Vulcan would also be a blow.
I can't comment on the hair as I might (not saying I did) have the same hair in the 80s. But it might have been more flattering for Curtis to don a similar hairdo to Alleys.
It's a awful moment of awkward scene chewing -- and not very convincing. There is also blatant racism to the whole exchange. It's enough to call Kruge a bastard, but we get Klingon repeated three times. It's akin to calling someone a black bastard on earth, or whatever. It's funny how people think that TUC is the film where Kirk is first depicted as a racist, but I thought that TSFS makes it obvious.
Maybe you're right.
I just think its more like a allied soldier calling an enemy in WW2 - 'you German bastard'. After all - all Klingons are the enemy at the time. Its not the 24th century.
I see this, and even TUC similarly
I view the attitude of Kirk and the rest of the characters toward the Klingons to be based not on ethnicity, but on what is essentially a whole lifetime of being in either open or indirect conflict. Their whole Starfleet career, their training and thought process was that the Klingons were the enemy, a treacherous, barbaric and dangerous foe not to be trusted.
Their attitude is not merely because they're Klingon, but because they're the enemy.
Except that the word also has the definition of being a villain or despised person.Also, calling him a bastard might offend people born out of wedlock
Yeah, and that was meant as an ethnic slur. Hence adding "German" to it. There is no fundamental difference between one "bastard" and another until we add a race or ethnic description to it, and the only reason to do that is to extol the relevant hatred.
No offense, but that's what every closet bigot says. If you have to add race to a statement that already makes the negative claim, it's now a racist claim -- putting race first defines it. All Kirk does in TUC is explain why he hates all Klingons.
I'm not sure I'd look at Kirk's comments as racist. In such a trying, emotional situation he (or anyone) isn't about to parse their words carefully, choosing the least offensive term. Especially in Kirk's case, as the situation didn't (in movie reality) take place with a huge audience of listeners. Remember, in a movie we aren't "really" there.
Not to mention that Klingons aren't a race, they are a species.
Not to mention that Klingons aren't a race, they are a species.
Come on, if someone put "black" or "white" in front of "bastard," there would be no argument that it's about race. Of course it's about race. The rest is just the same, at best, rationalization a closet racist makes to try to deny that he or she is racist when called out on having said it. It's in trying situations our true selves come out, and the awful or hurtful things we want to keep hidden often get revealed.
I'd use "race" since Gorkon's daughter says more or less that particular concept in the film vis a vis the humans.
Wow, I completely disagree. I always considered it an outstanding piece of work on his part. Completely convincing in stripping away the layers of his usual bravado. I recently saw it in the theater again in Philadelphia and it was even better on the big screen. Nobody in the audience laughed, it still went over great.
As far as I'm concerned, it's some of Shatner's best, most emotionally raw work as Kirk.
I didn't think she was being racist. She had very good reason not to trust the humans.
Although not having experienced racism perhaps I'm not one to judge.
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