A Loose End from Star Trek III..?

[CoveTom]

Except that Nimoy knew she wasn't a Vulcan: it's right there in the dialog he plaued (but was edited out of the film). For whatever reason he decided that that dialog omission allowed him to disregard the character's intended background and treat her as a full Vulcan instead of a mix.

A good point, but that raises another question. Were the lines about her being half-Romulan excised simply because of time or pacing or somesuch, or was it consciously done because they decided they didn't want Saavik to be half-Romulan after all? If the latter, Nimoy may have been aware of that as well.

 

[doubleohfive]

I've been giving some of my old videotapes one last watch before throwing them out. Last night, I watched Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.

Driving home from work today, it occurred to me: from whom did Valeris purchase the Genesis data?

Simple: Valeris never purchased any Genesis data in Star Trek III.

 

[f14peter]

I've been giving some of my old videotapes one last watch before throwing them out. Last night, I watched Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.

Driving home from work today, it occurred to me: from whom did Valeris purchase the Genesis data?

Simple: Valeris never purchased any Genesis data in Star Trek III.

but, she did purchase a Sega Genesis, and totally kicked ass on Sonic The Hedgehog, in spite of her being quoted as saying that the idea of a blue supersonic insectivore was a "illogical"

 

[urbandefault]

I thought it was good too. Never thought it was bad acting at all.

Ugh, it was so over-the-top it was practically campy. Wrenching his face, doing the faux pained speech -- awful.

I've always appreciated Shatner's performance in this scene, but moreso as time has passed.

The shock of losing a child affects different people in different ways. In real life I've seen people faint, scream, sob uncontrollably, and completely shut down. One friend recently faced the sudden and unexpected death of his oldest son with relatively calm acceptance.

The fact that Kirk was able to pull himself together in the face of such a tragedy and save his friends shows the depth of his personal strength as a ship's captain and as a man.

"My God, Bones. What have I done?"
"What you had to do. What you always do."

Kirk said in TWOK that he'd never faced death. "Not like this." With David's senseless murder at the hands of a random Klingon he'd faced it twice.

If he needed to say the words "Klingon bastard" three times to fortify himself and carry on, who could reasonably argue?

 

[Gassy Man]

It's over-the-top, which is classic Shatner, and classic Kirk. If you don't care for the scene, chances are you cringe (or laugh) at Shatner's performance throughout the run of TOS and its films. I found it gripping. I also was touched by the reaction shots.

Shatner's great when he tones it down; he's a cartoon otherwise.

 

[Gassy Man]

I thought it was good too. Never thought it was bad acting at all.

Ugh, it was so over-the-top it was practically campy. Wrenching his face, doing the faux pained speech -- awful.

I've always appreciated Shatner's performance in this scene, but moreso as time has passed.

The shock of losing a child affects different people in different ways. In real life I've seen people faint, scream, sob uncontrollably, and completely shut down. One friend recently faced the sudden and unexpected death of his oldest son with relatively calm acceptance.

The fact that Kirk was able to pull himself together in the face of such a tragedy and save his friends shows the depth of his personal strength as a ship's captain and as a man.

"My God, Bones. What have I done?"
"What you had to do. What you always do."

Kirk said in TWOK that he'd never faced death. "Not like this." With David's senseless murder at the hands of a random Klingon he'd faced it twice.

If he needed to say the words "Klingon bastard" three times to fortify himself and carry on, who could reasonably argue?

The constant iteration of "Klingon bastard" alone is cringeworthy -- it's just dopey writing -- but Shatner's delivery is so labored, so false, so Shatnerian, it's just classic cheese.

The movie is full of weird moments like that. A few seconds later he is setting the ship to self destruct, which he plays with greater effect because he isn't chewing up the scenery, but then as he leaves the bridge and emerges in the transporter room, there's this jaunty music, as though to say, "Hey, lighten up, the overwrought drama is over." When they get planetside and Kirk watches the ship blow up Shatner's acting is less a distraction, and he's effective again. Star Trek III is such an uneven, odd film.

 

[CoveTom]

It's over-the-top, which is classic Shatner, and classic Kirk. If you don't care for the scene, chances are you cringe (or laugh) at Shatner's performance throughout the run of TOS and its films. I found it gripping. I also was touched by the reaction shots.

Shatner's great when he tones it down; he's a cartoon otherwise.

In your opinion, of course.

In my opinion, it was Shatner's unique style of sometimes over-the-top acting that gave the Kirk character it's life, it's charm, it's uniqueness. Yes, Shatner did tone it down when appropriate and the Kirk character needed that. But the level of energy Shatner brought to the character, and his ability to dial it up to 11 when appropriate, really made Kirk work. And I wouldn't change a thing about it.

 

[CoveTom]

Star Trek III is such an uneven, odd film.

Leonard Nimoy is an uneven, odd director. In fact, I would go so far as to say Leonard Nimoy is not a very good director. His directing rises or falls depending on what the writer has written, whereas the best directors can take even mediocre material and make it shine. Also, Nimoy is very much stuck in the mindset of a television director, and didn't take advantage of the potential of a feature film.

I would argue, actually, that Shatner was a much better director than Nimoy. He got good performances out of his actors, and he actually shot TFF like a feature film, not a TV episode. Yes, he was horrible at developing a story and should never have been involved in the writing. But purely as a director, I think he did a good job.

 

[EnriqueH]

Damn...III and IV are two of my favorites.

 

[eyeresist]

My problem is with Leonard Nimoy's direction. In TWOK, a conscious choice was made to have Kirstie Alley play the character with more emotion than a typical Vulcan because she was supposed to be playing a half-Vulcan/half-Romulan. Dialogue indicating such was, in fact, filmed but cut.

When you get to TSFS, Nimoy directed Curtis to play Saavik as a full Vulcan, without any of the hints of emotion Alley injected into Saavik. But that wasn't the character that had been established in TWOK! If Nimoy wanted a full, emotionless Vulcan, then he should have had a different character.

I rewatched TSFS the other night, and found I agree with you. If Curtis's character had a different name (and a better hairstyle), I would have no problem with her in the film. But this is only one of several issues which make me wish the film had a different director.....

I thought Alley played her character pretty stoically throughout - except in the funeral scene, where you can see her on the right of screen emoting like crazy. Somehow neither the director nor the other actors noticed this and told her to cut it out.

I would argue, actually, that Shatner was a much better director than Nimoy. He got good performances out of his actors, and he actually shot TFF like a feature film, not a TV episode. Yes, he was horrible at developing a story and should never have been involved in the writing. But purely as a director, I think he did a good job.

I agree with all these points about their relative directing abilities. If only they'd given the script to someone else for a final pass, TFF wouldn't be nearly as controversial.

Also, his "Klingon bastards" moment was powerful stuff! But maybe too theatrical for some tastes.

 

[Strange Citizen]

Star Trek III is a great film IMO.

Just wanted to go way back to the beginning of this thread and address a very early quote from there, which I found both very amusing and interesting:

Kirk.

They stopped at a Starbase on the way back to Earth, and she saw him at the bar looking depressed and forlorn, and tried to help him feel better. He takes her aboard the Enterprise to his quarters. At which point, she took the data tape from Kirk's quarters.

It's probably what Kirk is thinking about when he gets into the turbolift and wipes his nose.

So that's how Valeris got the data tapes!

Unless I've misunderstood what you were saying, of course, in which case I hope this doesn't bother you - perhaps you simply meant that he befriended Valeris because she was a Vulcan, he likes Vulcans because of Spock, etc, and just 'took her to his quarters', and nothing else.

But, unless I'm mistaken, I'm assuming that you implied something else entirely with that statement - humourously, you were saying that Kirk thought Valeris was hot and fancied her (which isn't hard to understand), and that she seduced him, they...well, fooled around together - and then she stole the tape from his quarters while he was sleeping and snuck off.

Am I correct? Or did I simply read way more into what you wrote than you intended, and the part about 'taking her to his quarters' wasn't meant to be imply that they had sex at all? If so then I apologise - it just seemed funny to me.

In fact, although Kirk has by the time of TUC obviously calmed down his, uh, libido since his younger days back in TOS, having an easy lay with a chick and this coming back badly on him later on would actually be a good way to showcase his vulnerability to women. So it could make a lot of sense potentially.

It might even explain why he seems uncomfortable with Valeris in TUC - he seems to find it weird that she enters his quarters, and looks like he's feeling either confused or guilty about something. What was he thinking? "Hmmmm, is this that same girl I was fooling around with a couple of months ago except with shorter hair and in uniform? It is! Damn this is embarrassing."

As for the other comments on Star Trek III in this thread:

I actually thought Bill Shatner's acting in TSFS was some of his very best. Even when it was over the top, it worked because of the extreme nature of the situation - people sometimes genuinely do act crazy or yell bizarre things when they're in a really extreme situation.

Hence, Kirk killing Kruge in self-defence was brilliantly (even if somewhat hilariously for the audience) over the top. Who can ever forget those gems: First, when Kirk leaps at Kruge, and yells: "Arghhhhhhhhhh!" in a completely hammy way, and second, the unforgettable: "I! Have had...enough of! YOUUUUUU!" A scene like that could only ever have taken place before the 90's.

I am of the opinion that Bill Shatner's acting improved significantly between TOS and the TOS films. Anyone else think the same? He was often great in TOS, don't get me wrong - but he seemed to have acquired more subtlety and grace as an actor by the films, especially from TWOK onwards.

 

[CoveTom]

I am of the opinion that Bill Shatner's acting improved significantly between TOS and the TOS films. Anyone else think the same? He was often great in TOS, don't get me wrong - but he seemed to have acquired more subtlety and grace as an actor by the films, especially from TWOK onwards.

Actually, I tend to think the opposite. I think he was fantastic in TOS, rather good in TMP-TSFS, and then around the time of TVH/TFF started playing a caricature of himself rather than Captain Kirk. By the time of Generations, he was just playing William Shatner.

 

[eyeresist]

^ I've been watching the TOS movies over the last month. Most recent was TVH, and it struck me that his acting in the movies was quite grounded and effective - until TVH. His attempts to lay on the charm with Gillian are awfully smarmy, as is his line "A guess? You, Spock? That's extraordinary!" I'll be interested to see how this compares with TFF, where at least he doesn't have a love interest.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I think III was a fine film for the most part and don't understand the heat it gets especially considering what it had to work with. When it's called "The Search for Spock" you don't really have anywhere to go as far as the ending. What are you going to do say "Well we tried, but didn't find him." So you knew how it was going to end before the opening credits and that kind of ties the film's hands a bit.

The effects were very good. I think the spacedock shots, both entering and leaving were excellent.

The acting was good, sure Chekov and Uhura didn't do much but what else is new. I actually think Kirk's reaction to his son's death was played well by Shatner and he didn't ham it up. He could have just started screaming "NOOOOOOOO!!!! I Shall make you all pay for taking my offspring away from me" But he actually underplayed it and made a good transition to realizing they were still in a fix and had to get out of it. I think Robin Curtis was fine and her only major flaw is she wasn't Kristie Alley. I thought Kruge was great despite the fact a lot of people can't seem to get over that it's Doc Brown from Back to the Future playing a Klingon. He was ruthless, but he was doing it for what he thought was the greater good of the Empire, but he was also clever and he had a bit of honor in him, like when he allowed 2 minutes for Kirk and his gallant crew when Kirk asked for one. And his "get out of there" scream when he realized what was about to happen to the Enterprise was awesome. In fact we say it to each other at work from time to time when some kind of shitty situation happens. I'll take him over the ridiculous shakespeare rantings of Chris Plummer hammy performance any day.

It had some nice subtle humor like "Don't call me tiny", "Up your shaft", "How many fingers am I holding up", Bones trying to do the neck pinch on the security officer and his Spock like behavior in general and his "Green blooded son of a bitch, it's his revenge for all those arguments he lost." "Kirk's slightly bemused "I saw no future" when Sarek told him he denied Spock's future after he died. The captain of the Excelsior asking how they could be at yellow alert in spacedock and his reaction when told that someone was stealing the Enterprise and Scott's "I'm working on it sir" as they're approaching the spacedoors and Kirk, Scotty and Sulu looking like "Oh shit" until they open just in time. Sure the Excelsior conking out to the noise of a sputtering engine was a little much, but all in all it was well placed clever humor.

I loved the concept of how these 6 people were resourceful enough to stick it to the whole of starfleet and how the obsolete Enterprise was able to put one over on their new shiny toy Excelsior.

The destruction of the Enterprise was shocking and dramatic and the scene was done well with a purpose, instead of just destroying a ship for the hell of it like they did with Enterprise-D. Kirk showed his humanity by trying to save Kruge even after everything he'd done and his I've had enough of you I thought was pretty much how Id feel after I tried to save your ass and you try to kill me with you.

My biggest complaint is that it really slowed down for the last 20 mins or so, but again there really was nowhere for the script to go. They found Spock and he had to be restored and it would have been ridiculous if they did it Frankenstein style with electricity and shit, so it was pretty boring but really couldn't be avoided.

Oh and the score was incredible. The escape from spacedock is tied with the genesis countdown piece as my favorite pieces from any ST score. Horner did an amazing job with TWOK and TSFS and I think it's every bit as good as what John Williams did with the original Star Wars triology score.

Yeah it was uneven and had its faults (Chekov's pink suit with the brown undershirt and pilgrim collar, which magically changed to a black undershirt and losing the collar, maybe he went to the head and saw his dress and thought "Man I really do look queer" and changed and the pink chairs of Grissom are a couple) but it's genius compaired to V, think its better than TUC and far superior to any of the TNG or Abrahams films. It's major flaw to many people is it wasn't The Wrath of Khan...which is a ridiculous standard to try and live up to. So I appreciate it for what it was, not what it couldn't match.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I've never had my son killed by a Klingon bastard and heard it reported to me over an audio link by an emotionless Robin Curtis, but if that ever did happen I'm not sure I'd react all that differently.

It's a awful moment of awkward scene chewing -- and not very convincing.

Wow, I completely disagree. I always considered it an outstanding piece of work on his part. Completely convincing in stripping away the layers of his usual bravado. I recently saw it in the theater again in Philadelphia and it was even better on the big screen. Nobody in the audience laughed, it still went over great.

As far as I'm concerned, it's some of Shatner's best, most emotionally raw work as Kirk.

Some people won't give Shatner a break no matter what he does. Some of it is his own fault with his ego and self serving attitude he's had over the years and he's no Robert DeNero but the would have lasted in Hollywood for 6 decades if he was a hack.

He has seen enough death and destruction caused by Khan's vendetta towards him and he snaps and yells Khan and people say "there he goes over the top again" (Look at Quinto's yell by compairson...that is weak shit) He underplays it at spocks wake and flinches his lip or is actually pretty controlled after david is killed, and people accuse him of hamming it up in those scenes. Give the guy a damn break for once. At least Shatner always embraced the Kirk role, never hid from it and even had fun with it, unlike Nimoy who bitched for over a decade that people only knew him for Spock and not his shitty poetry and other acting jobs and always wanted out he said. Yet he never had problem cashing Paramount's checks for the role and seems to keep finding ways to get on screen as Spock even today.....this in spite of the fact he "despised" the role so much in the past. Oh and yeah a role that brought you immense wealth and fame that countless struggling actors will kill to have.

 

[eyeresist]

I think III was a fine film for the most part and don't understand the heat it gets ...
My biggest complaint is that it really slowed down for the last 20 mins or so, but again there really was nowhere for the script to go. They found Spock and he had to be restored and it would have been ridiculous if they did it Frankenstein style with electricity and shit, so it was pretty boring but really couldn't be avoided.

Oh and the score was incredible. The escape from spacedock is tied with the genesis countdown piece as my favorite pieces from any ST score. Horner did an amazing job with TWOK and TSFS and I think it's every bit as good as what John Williams did with the original Star Wars triology score.

I think there are many good things about TSFS. Horner's score, as you say - honestly, I prefer his Trek scores to Goldsmith's. They sound more dramatic and more magical to me.

My problems with the film are really a succession of small things that bother me:
The look: Some of the lighting choices were garish - the interior of the BoP is pastel pink and blue! Thankfully they fixed that for TVH. The bar scene suffers from tacky lighting and also awful background music.
The actors: David and Saavik are just not very impressive characters. Same with the Klingon underlings (and their overly-prominent lower lips).
The blocking: At this point Nimoy was not comfortable shooting large ensembles. He himself said he preferred small, intimate scenes, and the mindmeld and pon farr scenes are great stuff. OTOH, the last part on the Genesis planet, when he has all the actors in the movie on one tiny square of land, looks awkward.
Vulcan: The costumes really tip from the exotic-primitive of TOS into ridiculous Flash Gordon stuff. Judith Anderson and Mark Lenard only survived by the power of their acting.

But apart from these things there is still a lot to like.

"Jim. Your name .. is Jim." Still a great moment!