A Loose End from Star Trek III..?

[Gassy Man]

I've never had my son killed by a Klingon bastard and heard it reported to me over an audio link by an emotionless Robin Curtis, but if that ever did happen I'm not sure I'd react all that differently.

It's a awful moment of awkward scene chewing -- and not very convincing.

Wow, I completely disagree. I always considered it an outstanding piece of work on his part. Completely convincing in stripping away the layers of his usual bravado. I recently saw it in the theater again in Philadelphia and it was even better on the big screen. Nobody in the audience laughed, it still went over great.

As far as I'm concerned, it's some of Shatner's best, most emotionally raw work as Kirk.

Nah, it's awful. I actually use it as an example of terrible acting. He's fine with the physical stuff -- stumbling back for the chair. But his expression and delivery are cringeworthy.

 

[Gassy Man]

I'm not sure I'd look at Kirk's comments as racist. In such a trying, emotional situation he (or anyone) isn't about to parse their words carefully, choosing the least offensive term. Especially in Kirk's case, as the situation didn't (in movie reality) take place with a huge audience of listeners. Remember, in a movie we aren't "really" there.

Not to mention that Klingons aren't a race, they are a species.

Come on, if someone put "black" or "white" in front of "bastard," there would be no argument that it's about race. Of course it's about race. The rest is just the same, at best, rationalization a closet racist makes to try to deny that he or she is racist when called out on having said it. It's in trying situations our true selves come out, and the awful or hurtful things we want to keep hidden often get revealed.

I'd use "race" since Gorkon's daughter says more or less that particular concept in the film vis a vis the humans.

I didn't think she was being racist. She had very good reason not to trust the humans.
Although not having experienced racism perhaps I'm not one to judge.

She wasn't being racist per se -- she was using the term "racist" to describe the Federation as a homo sapiens-only club, or something like that. The point I was making was to the idea of Kirk's viewing Klingons in a "racist" way rather than a "speciest" was based in the idea of what the films present.

Everyone's experienced racism, whether on the giving or receiving end. Even people who have not overtly done or said racist things can benefit passively from the privilege they get in a society by virtue of their race.

 

[Memory Alpha]

I thought Kirk missing the chair and the "Klingon bastards" line was really effective; when I saw it as a kid I thought it was really something. The screens behind him are showing static and they've been defeated effectively for the first time - no way out of it this time. I also did not find it racist. The Klingons were the enemies, and they just killed David, so I think Kirk is permitted a chance to express himself, but he pulls it together quickly. I love the, "Get out! Get out of there!" Kruge yell. It's tense back and forth.

 

[EnriqueH]

See, I don't have a problem with Robin Curtis' look, delivery or anything.

There's a hint of emotion there too when she excitedly says, "Beaming down to the surface is permitted." and the slyly sarcastic, "I'll try to remember that, Captain." and even ever so slightly flirty, "Just like your father, so human."

Curtis did a good job. Both Curtis and Kim Cattral had to deal with Kirstie Alley's ghost since she had a sexiness in the role that the other two couldn't match. That said, I thought Curtis was more effective than Cattral even though I consider Cattral an extremely sexy woman and more accomplished actress.

 

[eyeresist]

Also, calling him a bastard might offend people born out of wedlock

Except that the word also has the definition of being a villain or despised person.

Where do you think the term originated?

 

[Ssosmcin]

[
As far as I'm concerned, it's some of Shatner's best, most emotionally raw work as Kirk.

Nah, it's awful. I actually use it as an example of terrible acting. He's fine with the physical stuff -- stumbling back for the chair. But his expression and delivery are cringeworthy.

Nope, I use it as an example of knowing your stuff. He says the three similar lines in three completely different ways to convey the emotion behind all of them. Shocked disbelief, tortured sorrow, vengeful anger. Nothing at all cringeworthy about it to me. To each his own.

 

[Gassy Man]

[
As far as I'm concerned, it's some of Shatner's best, most emotionally raw work as Kirk.

Nah, it's awful. I actually use it as an example of terrible acting. He's fine with the physical stuff -- stumbling back for the chair. But his expression and delivery are cringeworthy.

Nope, I use it as an example of knowing your stuff. He says the three similar lines in three completely different ways to convey the emotion behind all of them. Shocked disbelief, tortured sorrow, vengeful anger. Nothing at all cringeworthy about it to me. To each his own.

Some fans like it, but it's just awful to watch. Outside of that, those I've shown it to have either laughed or just shaken their heads.

 

[Commishsleer]

It's a awful moment of awkward scene chewing -- and not very convincing. There is also blatant racism to the whole exchange. It's enough to call Kruge a bastard, but we get Klingon repeated three times. It's akin to calling someone a black bastard on earth, or whatever. It's funny how people think that TUC is the film where Kirk is first depicted as a racist, but I thought that TSFS makes it obvious.

Maybe you're right.

I just think its more like a allied soldier calling an enemy in WW2 - 'you German bastard'. After all - all Klingons are the enemy at the time. Its not the 24th century.

Yeah, and that was meant as an ethnic slur. Hence adding "German" to it. There is no fundamental difference between one "bastard" and another until we add a race or ethnic description to it, and the only reason to do that is to extol the relevant hatred.

So according to 21st century standards practically all Allied/Axis soldiers in WW2 would be regarded as being racist?

My grandfather fought in WW2 and he had some choice words for the enemy. He didn't carry that forward into his civilian life though mostly.

 

[Gassy Man]

Maybe you're right.

I just think its more like a allied soldier calling an enemy in WW2 - 'you German bastard'. After all - all Klingons are the enemy at the time. Its not the 24th century.

Yeah, and that was meant as an ethnic slur. Hence adding "German" to it. There is no fundamental difference between one "bastard" and another until we add a race or ethnic description to it, and the only reason to do that is to extol the relevant hatred.

So according to 21st century standards practically all Allied/Axis soldiers in WW2 would be regarded as being racist?

My grandfather fought in WW2 and he had some choice words for the enemy. He didn't carry that forward into his civilian life though mostly.

It would be racist if it was about race, and it would be an ethnic slur if it was about ethnicity. Did your grandfather hate the Germans because they were white? If so, he's a racist. Did your grandfather hate Germans because they were German? Then he's an ethnic bigot.

Did he hate them because they were the enemy, and he limited that hatred only to the specific soldiers he fought against? One wouldn't call him a bigot per se, but if he felt the need to ascribe his hatred verbally to everyone who fit the description, whether they were his opponents or not, then, yeah, he's a bigot.

 

[Gassy Man]

Also, calling him a bastard might offend people born out of wedlock

Except that the word also has the definition of being a villain or despised person.

Where do you think the term originated?

That doesn't change that it currently has an acceptable definition that goes beyond illegitimacy of birth. If you're going to go after words whose origins are negative or that now have multiple meanings, you'll need to eliminate quite a few words from the English language.

According to this site, "bastard" was even taken to have a definition with no stigma whatsoever: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bastard.

 

[publiusr]

In Balance he stood up to Styles bigotry--you can't blame a holocaust survivor if they don't won't to ever see a German. To get over that takes time.

My problem with movie Kirk is that he was always surrendering

 

[eyeresist]

That doesn't change that it currently has an acceptable definition that goes beyond illegitimacy of birth.

So I assume you also say "I could care less" to mean "I couldn't care less".

 

[CoveTom]

Some fans like it, but it's just awful to watch. Outside of that, those I've shown it to have either laughed or just shaken their heads.

I agree with Mr. Spook. It was absolutely fine acting on Shatner's part, and it's a really effective scene. Nothing awful or cringeworthy about it.

 

[Smellmet]

I thought it was good too. Never thought it was bad acting at all.

 

[mos6507]

I thought Kirk missing the chair and the "Klingon bastards" line was really effective; when I saw it as a kid I thought it was really something. The screens behind him are showing static and they've been defeated effectively for the first time - no way out of it this time.

It's funny how two people can react to the same material in totally different ways. One person insists this is cringeworthy and another says it's well acted.

I also saw it as a kid and thought it was one of Shatner's best acted scenes. Probably the most emotional moment the Kirk character had in his whole arc outside of watching Edith Keeler die on City on the Edge of Forever. Shatner has been able to carve out a career of making the most of his rather over-the-top style of acting, so there's no reason to expect Olivier out of him, but in the context of his entire acting career, this was a highlight.

 

[Gassy Man]

That doesn't change that it currently has an acceptable definition that goes beyond illegitimacy of birth.

So I assume you also say "I could care less" to mean "I couldn't care less".

Why would you assume that? The definition of a word is not the same thing as whether or not a colloquial expression is acceptable.

But, since you raise that non sequitur, here is an article on it: http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_...irrational_or_ungrammatical_as_you_might.html.

 

[Gassy Man]

I thought it was good too. Never thought it was bad acting at all.

Ugh, it was so over-the-top it was practically campy. Wrenching his face, doing the faux pained speech -- awful.

 

[Gassy Man]

I thought Kirk missing the chair and the "Klingon bastards" line was really effective; when I saw it as a kid I thought it was really something. The screens behind him are showing static and they've been defeated effectively for the first time - no way out of it this time.

It's funny how two people can react to the same material in totally different ways. One person insists this is cringeworthy and another says it's well acted.

I also saw it as a kid and thought it was one of Shatner's best acted scenes. Probably the most emotional moment the Kirk character had in his whole arc outside of watching Edith Keeler die on City on the Edge of Forever. Shatner has been able to carve out a career of making the most of his rather over-the-top style of acting, so there's no reason to expect Olivier out of him, but in the context of his entire acting career, this was a highlight.

True, but some people may react to it for the meaning of the scene versus the execution of it.

Non fans tend to cringe. Fans tend to like it. Maybe there's something to that.

 

[dub]

It's over-the-top, which is classic Shatner, and classic Kirk. If you don't care for the scene, chances are you cringe (or laugh) at Shatner's performance throughout the run of TOS and its films. I found it gripping. I also was touched by the reaction shots.

 

[Maurice]

...My guess is that he felt that Nick didn't "get" STAR TREK, especially Vulcans. Meyer comes up with his first Vulcan and right out of the box, what does he do with her? Makes her Human. I'm sure Nimoy was concerned about that, but STAR TREK II wasn't his movie to direct.

Except that Nimoy knew she wasn't a Vulcan: it's right there in the dialog he played (but was edited out of the film). For whatever reason he decided that that dialog omission allowed him to disregard the character's intended background and treat her as a full Vulcan instead of a mix.