shame Meyer didnt do any TNG

[Melakon]

Kirk comes into the 'TNG' story too late. That's really the thing. The whole last fifteen minutes feel like an eleventh hour addition to the story, instead of flowing naturally from it.

Yes, if Kirk had come back at the end of the first act, he could have had a broody "man out of time" thing going ("Why are you people so nice all the time?"), then found redemption and peace with a noble self-sacrifice.

A self-sacrifice motivated by an intense desire to get the hell away from these 24th century dweebs.

I think the problem is Braga and Moore didn't really like Kirk as a character. They seem content to make him a parody of himself, rather than really bring out his more introspective and intelligent side. But that would have taken away from Picard.

 

[Christopher]

That's exactly why he was so twisted in TWOK. All his ambition, all his potential, was squashed into an endless squalid struggle to survive. And for a man who was ambition personified, this was hell.

Sure, but that doesn't make the story as interesting as the story of Khan's people actually establishing a successful power base could've been.

I think the problem is Braga and Moore didn't really like Kirk as a character. They seem content to make him a parody of himself, rather than really bring out his more introspective and intelligent side. But that would have taken away from Picard.

I don't think Kirk was a parody of himself in GEN, any more than he was in any of the earlier movies. If anything, it was in TFF that he was the most exaggerated in his characterization. I felt GEN's Kirk was very authentic.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I just wanted to add that whilst TNG movies were definitely subject to the Law of Diminishing Returns, during initial release, they've stood the Test of Time™ in terms of trying to bring something new to the table - something extra. They were a great experiment in what they thought the franchise might do and I, for one, like the Argo, very much, for example. Unfortunately, NEMESIS made a meal out of it, at a time when ATV's were already commonplace. If they'd just been like, "this is how we roll" and kept upping the anty like this, it would've helped the TNG franchise alot. Instead, the movies seemed too concerned about "what the fans might think" about fresh elements. In short, I feel that the TNG movies were in the right ballpark, they just should've been bolder with their fresh thinking.

 

[EnriqueH]

TNG films tried to bring something extra? Could you elaborate?

Anyway, while I can't imagine Meyer doing TNG, I can certainly imagine him doing DS9! Just as Cyke suggested. Now, I'm not a DS9 expert, having only seen the first 3 1/2 seasons (I love it, but got sidetracked, long story).

 

[eyeresist]

Anyway, while I can't imagine Meyer doing TNG, I can certainly imagine him doing DS9!

I can imagine him doing ENT

 

[2takesfrakes]

TNG films tried to bring something extra? Could you elaborate?

For example: The Borg Queen. In one character, just by the mere fact of her being present in FIRST CONTACT, redefines a well-established TREK species. I'm not saying whether that was "appropriate" to this "species" or even to this story, but it was "something extra" brought to the table.

Another aspect was the ARGO, which I've already mentioned. There's a very vocal group of fans out there who hate this element with a Zealot's Passion, but I thought it so openned the doors for future STAR TREK incarnations. Away Teams can beam to a planet, but they have to hike it for mile and miles, even if they use a shuttle. It limits the story potential, making them walk. Vehicles like the ARGO and its capabilities would make Away Missions a lot more FUN to watch!

The joystick used to pilot ENTERPRISE in INSURRECTION was an addition that I thought was really cool. Always pressing buttons and letting computers run things takes away from some of the fun, at times. Like in STAR TREK II, when Chekov flips out that handle from the Weapons Console and keeps pressing the Doorbell on it to launch torpedoes. Showing the Human Hand having such direct involvement, over the computer, is just more interesting, especially in an action sequence.

There are other aspects I could mention, but I don't want this post to run for a page and a half. Suffice it to say that what TNG tried to do, even if it wasn't successful in its approach, brought more potential with it than relying on standard approaches.

 

[EnriqueH]

See, I thought you were talking about plot and character development. Which I thought was lacking in 2, arguably 3, of the 4 TNG films.

You're talking about cool, little superficial details.

I was never a fan of the Borg Queen and thought she completely ruined the Borg in general. Don't get me wrong, I loved First Contact and thought it was a fun movie, but the Borg Queen is the one thing in the movie I did not like. She seemed arbitrary.

 

[CoveTom]

I was never a fan of the Borg Queen and thought she completely ruined the Borg in general. Don't get me wrong, I loved First Contact and thought it was a fun movie, but the Borg Queen is the one thing in the movie I did not like. She seemed arbitrary.

I agree. Well, she wasn't really arbitrary, in that there was a definite reason they chose to include her. It's the same reason that "Best of Both Worlds" turned Picard into Locutus. They thought that they needed an actual villain to interact with, instead of the hive.

But both of those undercut the concept of the Borg, even as good as BoBW was. The Borg were their scariest in "Q, Who?" and got progressively weaker every time they were used.

 

[EnriqueH]

Yeah, but I thought Locutus transitioned well because it made sense that the Borg would use Picard for his knowledge, but also, and more importantly...as psychological warfare.

What could be more intimidating and discouraging than seeing one of your best captains assimilated into a Borg.

It clearly said to Starfleet, "Your best technology, weapons and people...are NOTHING."

It's a Trek cliche, but the message was clear: "Resistance is futile."

So to me, Locutus made sense. Which is why it was so damn scary. Picard lost his humanity, forced to kill colleagues, and it was psychological warfare.

Brilliant episode.

The Borg Queen, on the other hand, was not as interesting. Fortunately, she had an AWESOME movie built around her. She was definitely the weakest link of the film.

 

[eyeresist]

Perhaps the Borg Queen was originally in Locutus's position, and as she proved useful in assimilating her own race she was used as an intermediary when attempting subsequent assimilations.

 

[NeroShrimp]

I actually don't have a problem with Meyer not being involved with TNG. Come to think of it, I don't think it would hurt the films. But once the TNG films started, I never thought of Meyer again. He really fit with the TOS films, but I don't think he would be willing to direct Generations, even though I'm sure the film would be far superior, let alone Nemesis. I'm wondering if they even considered it...Who knows. Knowing Rick Berman, I doubt it.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Considering the fact Berman wouldn't let Nimoy rewrite the Generations script, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have let Meyer. So basically, it would be pretty close to the same film. Except maybe he would have cast somebody different as Soran (although I can't picture anybody else killing Captain Kirk than Malcolm McDowell).

 

[Christopher]

(although I can't picture anybody else killing Captain Kirk than Malcolm McDowell).

Nothing like a bit of the old ultra-violence...