yes indeed good point. Also the wheel room in TFF (as someone else noted in the underrated TUC thread its a wonder Meyer didn't want to use that set again in TUC)
shame Meyer didnt do any TNG
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I think Meyer would have been fine with a TNG film, the series had a wide variety of tone (Best of Both Worlds and Yesterday's Enterprise would have been right up his street) and I think it is perhaps telling that of the four films they did wind up doing the most and least popular aren't particularly less dark and militaristic than his TOS films.
I do think there's two particular talents Meyer has which, despite on the face of them being fairly obvious things to do, the TNG films could have benefited from regardless of who directed them.
The first, was he managed an impressive lack of ego when it came to dealing with the small budgets and demanding cast, if there was a bit he loved but couldn't be done because he didn't have the money or Actor X didn't like it then he'd cheerfully chuck it out and work in something new. That's exactly the sort of attitude someone making the sort of film Paramount had Trek's II-X down as being needed to have, a pragmatist who can deal with what's being flung at them.
To counter that, there's a bit in the commentary for Generations where Carson talks with pride about fighting for the Holodeck bit despite it being disproportionately expensive and time consuming, and it's hard not to feel the suits who wanted it cut were right and that cash and time could have been far better spent on other parts of the film. Equally, the dune buggy stuff in Nemesis is a perfect example of how to work in an actor's demands in the worst way possible. Both I think would have been handled better under either Meyer or someone with a similar sensibility.
The second important thing I think the Meyer films bought to the table was how he dealt with the cast ageing and acknowledging they had lives beyond the two hours we spent with them every couple of years. The TNG films very quickly get stuck in the rut of trying to pretend everyone hasn't aged and none of them have any ambitions in life beyond keeping the status quo of the TV series alive (except for Worf, and once DS9 is over he's just chucked back into his old job) and they stagnate as a result. Worse than that, in Data's case he actually starts going backwards after the first two films try and move his character on
With all this talk about Meyer's qualities, I do think one of the great thing about the Trek films is how varied they are, especially compared to so many movie franchises that are just happy to churn out the same sort of thing every film. Not everyone is going to like everything, but there is something for everyone.
I do think there's two particular talents Meyer has which, despite on the face of them being fairly obvious things to do, the TNG films could have benefited from regardless of who directed them.
The first, was he managed an impressive lack of ego when it came to dealing with the small budgets and demanding cast, if there was a bit he loved but couldn't be done because he didn't have the money or Actor X didn't like it then he'd cheerfully chuck it out and work in something new. That's exactly the sort of attitude someone making the sort of film Paramount had Trek's II-X down as being needed to have, a pragmatist who can deal with what's being flung at them.
To counter that, there's a bit in the commentary for Generations where Carson talks with pride about fighting for the Holodeck bit despite it being disproportionately expensive and time consuming, and it's hard not to feel the suits who wanted it cut were right and that cash and time could have been far better spent on other parts of the film. Equally, the dune buggy stuff in Nemesis is a perfect example of how to work in an actor's demands in the worst way possible. Both I think would have been handled better under either Meyer or someone with a similar sensibility.
The second important thing I think the Meyer films bought to the table was how he dealt with the cast ageing and acknowledging they had lives beyond the two hours we spent with them every couple of years. The TNG films very quickly get stuck in the rut of trying to pretend everyone hasn't aged and none of them have any ambitions in life beyond keeping the status quo of the TV series alive (except for Worf, and once DS9 is over he's just chucked back into his old job) and they stagnate as a result. Worse than that, in Data's case he actually starts going backwards after the first two films try and move his character on
With all this talk about Meyer's qualities, I do think one of the great thing about the Trek films is how varied they are, especially compared to so many movie franchises that are just happy to churn out the same sort of thing every film. Not everyone is going to like everything, but there is something for everyone.
I didn't mention FC in the OP as it turned out great as it was with Frakes directing. and as he did such a great job on FC he was given the next one Nimoy style (so Meyer probably wouldn't have been considered for IX anyway). But Meyer was probably approached for GEN (we know Nimoy was) and NEM (as stated in the imdb trivia) so its a shame he didn't do one (preferably GEN as maybe hed have done something good with the timetravel).
sitting down to one of the TNG movies in the theatre and seeing Directed by Nicholas Meyer on the credits just would've been so amazing (abit like Ridley Scott going back to the Alienverse)
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Have heard he was approached for GEN, and NEM, but can't find a link confirming it. It's a shame he didn't get on board, he may have been able to salvage something out of NEM, and greatly improve GEN.
Can easily see why it didn't happen though. Can you imagine how the meeting would have gone with the brains trust behind the TNG films?
MEYER : So what have you got guys?
STEWART : Well Brent and I feel that during dramatic action scenes, we should sing show tunes to each other.
MEYER (Nervously) : Ah, yes...
SPINER : And to really lighten things up, I will blurt out the word "Shit" randomly, and act like a prat.
BERMAN : Oh, and tell Nick about the pimples!
STEWART : Yes! We will give Worf pimples!
MEYER : So, Rick, you signed off on all this?
BERMAN : Ahh yes, we are all very pleased, it will be bigger than Wrath of Khan!
MEYER : Alright, fuck this, I'm outta here...good luck guys...and get my agent on the phone, he's fired!
Can easily see why it didn't happen though. Can you imagine how the meeting would have gone with the brains trust behind the TNG films?
MEYER : So what have you got guys?
STEWART : Well Brent and I feel that during dramatic action scenes, we should sing show tunes to each other.
MEYER (Nervously) : Ah, yes...
SPINER : And to really lighten things up, I will blurt out the word "Shit" randomly, and act like a prat.
BERMAN : Oh, and tell Nick about the pimples!
STEWART : Yes! We will give Worf pimples!
MEYER : So, Rick, you signed off on all this?
BERMAN : Ahh yes, we are all very pleased, it will be bigger than Wrath of Khan!
MEYER : Alright, fuck this, I'm outta here...good luck guys...and get my agent on the phone, he's fired!
Actually,all those qualities you mentioned---aging, the variations of theme from Treks II-IV---came from Harve Bennett, not Meyer. In fact, it's my understanding (from Star Trek Movie Memories) that Harve Bennett's first creative decision was to have the crew deal with their advanced age.
It's easy to understand why.
Generations had the potential to be very good, but it had some serious story problems.
Why would Picard return to the part where he's stuck between rocks? Why would the Enterprise-D be destroyed by an old Klingon warship? What's with the "echo" business?
I always thought Kirk's line about "Your place is on the bridge of your ship." should've been said to Picard, not Harriman.
Anyway, it's easy to see why Nimoy turned the project down both as an actor and director.
I've never bought the interpretation that you could exit the Nexus at any point in space and time. Sure, within the Nexus you can imagine/relive any point in your life, but in terms of actually leaving it, I'd think that would be limited to someplace nearby. So Picard and Kirk didn't have a lot of options about where and when they came out -- it had to be just shortly before the Nexus arrived.
Through sabotage. Granted, though, it might've worked better if it had been a battlecruiser.
That one's easy. The Nexus is timeless. If you're inside it, you occupy all times, past, present, and future. So even if you leave the Nexus, your time spent within it still spreads out to encompass all times, and thus, in a sense, a part of you is always there.
they gave GEN to Nimoy (and maybe to Meyer?) who said no due to the script problems and they said there was no time to fix anything then I imagine the director was chosen due to him having done Yesterdays Enterprise. then for FC they asked Ridley Scott and John McTiernan (according to imdb trivia) who both passed so Frakes got his shot (due to Berman pushing and obviously Frakes wanting it), that went better than anyone could have expected (basically TNGs TWOK) so in a mirroring of Nimoy he got another shot (but unlike Nimoy it wasn't his 'Voyage Home'), then on NEM they asked Meyer who said no due to the script (according to imdb trivia) then Stuart Baird got it (at the time looked to be a great move getting an 'outside' director like Meyer)
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Whilst I certainly think Bennett deserves a lot of credit for what works in II-VI and like Meyer had the right sort of mentality to make that sort of film work (certainly more so than Berman, ironically as they were both TV people), I do think the ageing thing is handled more directly and more interestingly in the Meyer directed movies than the other Bennett produced ones, indeed Star Trek V is as bad as any of the TNG films in trying to ignore time has passed since the TV show.
See, that would make much more sense than what seems to be going on onscreen (Picard instantly chooses the mountain top as his destination with no prompting and Guinan's dialogue makes it sound as if he could exit anywhere or anywhen), it's one of many bits of Generations that feel like it really needed just one more script polish, at the very least a lot of the minor problems could have been dealt with with just an extra line of dialogue here and there.
So, your rationel for why he goes back at such a stupid moment, maybe an explanation of where Younger Picard is (is it a Quantum Leap style thing? Then how does Kirk get out?), have the Klingons hit something vital with their first torpedo that explains why the Enterprise is so sluggish afterwards (and that's something TWOK does well, all the battles have an explanation as to why they're two ships moving slowly around each other rather than the by then expected Star Wars style dog fights- a sneak attack whilst pretending to be an ally followed by both ships being damaged and in a area where their sensors don't work. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the realities of movement in space but it works in the context of the fiction and makes the tight budget a virtue)...
One decent afternoon's script editing and it'd be a far less irritating movie.
I don't know. I'll take Time After Time and The Seven-Percent Solution over Generations, Insurrection, or Nemesis any day . . .
Then again, I'm more of TOS guy anyway.
I agree, and I'm more of a TNG guy anyway.
Ive been racking my brain trying to imagine a Meyer TNG movie and what it would've been like...(be it GEN or NEM or whichever it wouldve been)
-the film would probably open in late 19th Century London (first class production values). confusion until we realise we're at the climax of a Sherlock Holmes adventure on the holodeck with Data and Geordie battling Moriarty (I don't think theres anyway a Meyer directed TNG film wouldn't feature a Sherlock holodeck scene)
-David Warner wouldv appeared in some capacity as a new character (maybe in the Sherlock scene)
-Goldsmith/Meyer would've been an interesting collaboration.(would there have been a new theme or would it have been the standard TMP/TNG one)
-At some point Stewart would've quoted Shakespeare in some electrifying scene (there would've been some intellectual grand Shakespearean style feud between Picard and the villain played by McDowell etc) Stewart would've given his greatest performance as Picard out of all the movies and Eps
-the end spaceship battle would've had some interesting new twist (he did nebula in II, three way with a cloaked ship in VI, maybe something fresh and different for TNG not just a redress of those as was in GEN/NEM)
-the film would've looked as if it cost twice the budget and would've felt very 'movie' like
-If it had been GEN wed have seen Shatner forced (via numerous takes) into playing a mature thoughtful sombre James T Kirk again (not so much the energetic jovial horse riding running and jumping Captain Shatner from TFF)
-again if it was GEN I'm imagining something similar to what we got with the pocket watch yielding McDowell as the eloquent villain linking the crews, but with both crews meeting at some point in their respective ships (so we see both A and D on screen) I don't think there would've been any hold outs as with Nimoy/Kelly if Meyer had been behind it. Plus Kirks death would've been handled better and had greater meaning like Spocks. (maybe something similar to ST09s opening)
-if it had been NEM maybe he could've brought back KHAN via cloning and had him face off against Picard!
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=9079900#post9079900
-obviously there would've been a more militaristic/naval feel/theme to protocols/procedures and the look of it all.
-the film would probably open in late 19th Century London (first class production values). confusion until we realise we're at the climax of a Sherlock Holmes adventure on the holodeck with Data and Geordie battling Moriarty (I don't think theres anyway a Meyer directed TNG film wouldn't feature a Sherlock holodeck scene)
-David Warner wouldv appeared in some capacity as a new character (maybe in the Sherlock scene)
-Goldsmith/Meyer would've been an interesting collaboration.(would there have been a new theme or would it have been the standard TMP/TNG one)
-At some point Stewart would've quoted Shakespeare in some electrifying scene (there would've been some intellectual grand Shakespearean style feud between Picard and the villain played by McDowell etc) Stewart would've given his greatest performance as Picard out of all the movies and Eps
-the end spaceship battle would've had some interesting new twist (he did nebula in II, three way with a cloaked ship in VI, maybe something fresh and different for TNG not just a redress of those as was in GEN/NEM)
-the film would've looked as if it cost twice the budget and would've felt very 'movie' like
-If it had been GEN wed have seen Shatner forced (via numerous takes) into playing a mature thoughtful sombre James T Kirk again (not so much the energetic jovial horse riding running and jumping Captain Shatner from TFF)
-again if it was GEN I'm imagining something similar to what we got with the pocket watch yielding McDowell as the eloquent villain linking the crews, but with both crews meeting at some point in their respective ships (so we see both A and D on screen) I don't think there would've been any hold outs as with Nimoy/Kelly if Meyer had been behind it. Plus Kirks death would've been handled better and had greater meaning like Spocks. (maybe something similar to ST09s opening)
-if it had been NEM maybe he could've brought back KHAN via cloning and had him face off against Picard!
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=9079900#post9079900
-obviously there would've been a more militaristic/naval feel/theme to protocols/procedures and the look of it all.
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Actually Meyers influence is all over the TNG films anyway. From the various Khan like villains, to the aforementioned Hornbloweresque holodeck scene and the revenge/Moby Dick stuff in FC (complete with Picards KHAAN! like outburst), to a culmination of sorts with the near enough remake of II in NEM (all of which continued into the JJ films of course).
So although he had nothing to do with them he's still sort of noticeable
So although he had nothing to do with them he's still sort of noticeable
I guess he would have made DS9 more like a military base, and less like a holiday camp. He might also have emphasised the wormhole aliens as more of a potential threat. I think both of these would have been good things.
That's exactly why he was so twisted in TWOK. All his ambition, all his potential, was squashed into an endless squalid struggle to survive. And for a man who was ambition personified, this was hell.
It all comes down to the Kirk sections not being integrated into the script as well as they could have (or should have) been. GENS feels like two different movies that have been stitched together in the editing room, and even the scenes that are supposed to knit the film together into one cohesive whole (basically the whole Nexus sequence) feel like there's a disconnect between what the characters would actually do in that situation, and what the script requires them to do. Virtually from the moment Picard lands inside the Nexus the story all feels very rushed, like they've got that dead-line to meet and they have to do everything as quickly as possible to tie up the plot. It's like they've got a checklist: have Picard meet Kirk, then have Kirk realize as quickly as possible that he should come back with Picard, then have Kirk die helping "make a difference". But it's like they got to this point in the story break-down and just said "Y'know what, just take the most direct path there, we need to get this movie finished already".
Kirk comes into the 'TNG' story too late. That's really the thing. The whole last fifteen minutes feel like an eleventh hour addition to the story, instead of flowing naturally from it.
Yes, if Kirk had come back at the end of the first act, he could have had a broody "man out of time" thing going ("Why are you people so nice all the time?"), then found redemption and peace with a noble self-sacrifice.
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