Considering everyone in the Cage had the same rank insignia i.e. one bar in comparing the Cage and TWOK uniforms, yeah it kind of is.
Uniforms
- Thread starter PCz911
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Considering everyone in the Cage had the same rank insignia i.e. one bar in comparing the Cage and TWOK uniforms, yeah it kind of is.
one of the other pics that came up on the page from that link. twok style uniform in green
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/CaptApril/media/sfmc-uniform01.png.html
Well, originally, the concept was to distinguish officers and the captain. Part of Gene's idea was that everyone was a commissioned officer on a starship, with only the captain getting a more distinctive stripe from other officers. Again, small influence from Space Cadet.
With later developments, the rank became more important, as seen from "Corbomite Maneuver", onward, with more detailed ranking system put in place.
Nice find. Yep, I'm a big fan of Marine green
Other Marine variations:
Monster black Dress
DS9 Era with TOS inspired armor
Workout clothes with green lettering
Geoff, good work
Indeed, in "Spock's Brain" they fiddle with something at the back of their belts to adjust temperature to "seventy-two."
Even if comfort is not a main consideration, there is still the question of why they changed so radically. If there was a TV show about a US Navy ship where officers did their jobs dressed like this:
... and then they made a movie of it and the ship's officers now did the same jobs dressed like this
... it would seem to call for some kind of explanation. And that would be less radical than the WOK change, as the second uniform I used in the example existed contemporaneously with the first.
But that's not correct. Some had no stripe, some had one stripe, and the communication officer had a different "ladder" type stripe.
But the analogy to the modern U.S. Navy is flawed. We could just as easily choose to compare naval officer dress in the 19th century where, indeed, the officers were far more likely to dress formally. There, the crew was even more likely to want to be unencumbered as so much of the work was physical labor. If in the future the fabrics aren't the primary issue, then dress would be determined more by fashion than by practicality. In this respect, they could wear anything they want to, including "heavier" tunics.
Indeed, in "Spock's Brain" they fiddle with something at the back of their belts to adjust temperature to "seventy-two."
Even if comfort is not a main consideration, there is still the question of why they changed so radically. If there was a TV show about a US Navy ship where officers did their jobs dressed like this:
... and then they made a movie of it and the ship's officers now did the same jobs dressed like this
... it would seem to call for some kind of explanation. And that would be less radical than the WOK change, as the second uniform I used in the example existed contemporaneously with the first.
But that's not correct. Some had no stripe, some had one stripe, and the communication officer had a different "ladder" type stripe.
It was not an analogy to a particular organization, but an attempt to illustrate the degree of change between TOS and TWOK. Not a perfect comparison, I know, I would be glad to see one more apt.
It's hard to point to a real-world analogue to Starfleet. It's something of a mix, maybe an early-to-mid 20th century navy with 19th century Royal Navy roles. But personnel-wise, the 19th century isn't really comparable.
I choose the 19th century instead of your example of the 20th century simply to say there was a time, when the technology was even more primitive, where the formality of dress was very much on the order of what we see in TWOK. Somehow, without air conditioning and doing exhaustive manual labor, the men survived and even had to fight. There's no reason to believe that in the future, especially if fabrics do not behave like they do now, that for reasons of fashion or formality, a ship's crew can't return to that same formality. It is, after all, fashion. For that matter, the uniforms in TMP were a fairly significant change than the ones in TOS, and that film is only set a few years later. To me, TWOK uniforms minus the jackets are closer to the TOS uniforms than the ones in TMP.
The argument of function over form as the determiner is to me does not have to apply, especially if we do not know how clothing materials in the future will perform. For all we know, starships in times of war are actually not kept as comfortable as we think, and the uniforms are actually meant as an improvement over the TOS ones in protecting the crew from cold.
I agree about the protection from the cold, as if I were to save power, heat would be the first thing to be reduced-kind of like my house
Additionally, I do find the shift from TOS to TMP to TWOK to be odd, from an organizational standpoint. Obviously, the TOS to TMP one is an obvious transition and honoring of the Enterprise 5 year mission in adopting the arrowhead as the Starfleet emblem.
However, the increase bulk of the uniforms in TWOK was an interesting choice, so in universe it is hard to grasp what changes would prompt it, given what had gone on before. I agree with J.T.B. in that there is a difficult example to show such an extreme change in an organization's uniform and rank insignia, but it would be a major change.
As for the materials, obviously a more flexible material would be preferred, especially in space. I just wonder at the reason for a bulking up by Starfleet. I know the real world, production reasons, obviously.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned the jackets from The Cage, but I submit that they're not such a far cry from the TWOK design.
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The idea about how the fabrics behave is interesting, as there was that line in Spectre of the Gun, when Kirk invites bartender Ed to "Feel the material in my shirt". I always wondered what it was about it that would immediately distinguish it from (to Ed) modern fabrics. I suppose it would be like wearing a rayon shirt in the 1880's, where everyone might wonder just what the heck it was made of, but it can be easily assumed that if Kirk's futuristic clothes felt different, then they must have performed differently, too.
Well, from Rodenberry's point of view as set forth in the novel, TMP was probably how they were "supposed" to look (like the klingons), and the original uniforms an embellished version.
The cut of the flap is similar, but I feel the jackets are closer to the ones from TMP in form and function. Actually, now that I think about it, the overall uniform color palette is pretty similar between The Cage and TMP.
Military fashion is historically different from civilian fashion, though, because tradition and organizational identity is given so much weight. But long-term trends in uniforms are pretty consistent: away from formality and toward practicality and functionality; and a minimizing of major distinctions based on rank, status, assignment etc. That was true in the 19th century as well. TWOK seems to buck both those trends. It just doesn't seem a likely end point for lines of development set forward from TOS, barring some kind of revolution or societal upheaval.
Agreed, the TMP uniforms were a significant change. But there were enough lines of connection that one could see how they might have evolved from TOS. TWOK uniforms do not look like they evolved out of those of TMP. TMP looks evolutionary, TWOK looks revolutionary.
To be completely fair, the ladies probably all look even more like they're just running around in a sweater. A sweater that's four times too small for them. And nothing else.
Sometimes a military orginization has a major change in what they feel like wearing. Sometimes it is influenced by an outside party having a different style and someone with some weight to their rank thinks it looks good.
Now consider that TWOK uniform jackets stay as the main Starfleet uniform for at least six decades, possibly seven decades, I guess someone liked them.
Now consider that TWOK uniform jackets stay as the main Starfleet uniform for at least six decades, possibly seven decades, I guess someone liked them.
To be fair, the miniskirt uniform as informed by fashions of the day, as well as sex appeal, I won't deny that
But, the length of the skirt as not always objected to by the female cast members. I think Nichelle Nichols commented that she did not find the skirt particularly out of place from some of her daily wardrobe. Again, changing fashions and times.
Sure, that is a decision of the chief of Starfleet or the Admiralty. But, I'm just wondering at what point did the Admiralty go, "Hey, you're all expendable. Red shirts for everyone!"
Yeah the production budget.
To be fair, the miniskirt uniform as informed by fashions of the day, as well as sex appeal, I won't deny that
But, the length of the skirt as not always objected to by the female cast members. I think Nichelle Nichols commented that she did not find the skirt particularly out of place from some of her daily wardrobe. Again, changing fashions and times.
To be fair to the production as a whole where the female uniform skant is concerned, they weren't all the same length. Nichelle Nichols' was in fact shorter than any of the others, an actual miniskirt of the era, while most of the rest were midis, falling just above the knee. Nichelle Nichols is the only actress on TOS that at any point one could see her spankypants under her skirt when she was standing. The skirt was too long on all the others for that. Though admittedly, some were shorter than others.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it. In fact, if the TMP uniforms hadn't interrupted, I would have thought the TWOK uniforms were a natural evolution from the TOS ones -- they just changed some colors and added a jacket.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned the jackets from The Cage, but I submit that they're not such a far cry from the TWOK design.
Add black boots and a belt, and the images are very similar:
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I just wouldn't agree. Military uniforms were certainly pretty formal until the early 20th century for all but the most mundane of tasks and lowest of ranks. Fashion has always been a part of it, which is why the likes of Custer and Patton designed or submitted designs for their own elaborate uniforms. Even a federal Civil War infantry soldier had a pretty elaborate uniform by today's standards, one which the U.S. Army formal uniform still emulates.
I see much more connection between TWOK uniforms than the TMP ones, in everything from the solid color shirt to the bell bottom black pants to the black boots. The doohickeys and rank indicators are about the only thing in the TMP uniforms that remind me of anything in TOS, and these were changed significantly for TWOK uniforms. But they account for a very small portion of the overall uniform itself.
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