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Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we love

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I think Rick Berman is the most underrated, most underappriciated individual well, like, of ALL time in ANY field... Think about it...
I did, and it's a patently ridiculous notion. ANY time in ANY field?

Just. No.
Too bad you edited out your Original response, 'cause I was gonna say: you've never heard of hyperboles..?? Geez....
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Too bad you edited out your Original response, 'cause I was gonna say: you've never heard of hyperboles..?? Geez....

No offense, but your OP did make it sound like you really believed that.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Nemesis came in ahead of schedule and under budget, from what I understand, to the point where Berman refused Paramount's initial offer of a larger budget. Ok. But that time could've been spent refining the script and going through a couple more drafts, ...
Coming in ahead of schedule and under budget is the tail end of the process, meaning you've shot the movie. How the heck does that relate to how you should have spent time before you shot the movie? What you're suggesting requires slingshotting around the sun... and creates a whole mess of paradoxes. ;)

Hey, as long as you account for the weight of the water in the tank and the two whales, you should be fine.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I, and probably most people on this forum, don't know enough about the creation process of a Star Trek episode, to judge who's responsible for success or failure. Is it the writers, directors, or producers? Who knows.

Personally, I love all of Berman's Trek. Sure, I like to bitch about the sometimes mediocre Enterprise tales, or Voyager's ridiculous continuity problems. But at the end of the day, there's always something to like and ten years after it went off the air, I still watch the episodes. So it can't be all that bad, right?

Insurrection however, was a mistake. No doubt about it. My mother, also a big Trekfan, actually fell asleep in the cinema halfway through the movie. (true story, I'm not kidding). It is a padded tv-episode with a boring story and weird humor. Yawn.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I think Rick Berman is the most underrated, most underappriciated individual well, like, of ALL time in ANY field... Think about it...
I did, and it's a patently ridiculous notion. ANY time in ANY field?

Just. No.
Too bad you edited out your Original response, 'cause I was gonna say: you've never heard of hyperboles..?? Geez....
There's no inflection is ASCII. You might keep that in mind. :)
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I, and probably most people on this forum, don't know enough about the creation process of a Star Trek episode, to judge who's responsible for success or failure. Is it the writers, directors, or producers? Who knows.

It is true, many of the problems on Voyager and Enterprise were the result of studio and network interference. For example, Voyager actually was forbidden from doing long-term story arcs, and the dreaded Temporal Cold War on Enterprise was studio mandated due to lack of confidence in the prequel concept.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Though he helped expand the universe we are familiar with, I thought he was a stepping stone to an even larger universe. I was hoping one day that he'd relinquish his "keys to the kingdom" where someone else would take the story ahead another century with even more twists and turns.

I kept getting the impression this was kind of what was happening when ENT got cancelled (ie, Berman's day-to-day involvement in the show had been mostly relinquished to Manny Coto).

I always felt Berman knew what he was doing and was often wise with it -- for example, he advised studio executives early on against creating too many new spin-offs ad infinitium, because of a fear that Star Trek could "go to the well once too often and eventually find it bare", which is pretty accurate to what actually happened by the time of ENT -- but that, once given his orders, he followed them professionally and to the letter, even when he personally disagreed with them.

I guess I kept getting the impression of a man happy with his association with Star Trek, but somewhat hemmed in by an inability to move on from it...
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Insurrection had the bones of a good story and a decent movie. It's just that Berman wanted a softer, more cuddly film to counteract the darkness of First Contact.

Whoever made the decision, it was a bad one.
First, FC was not a particularly dark film, especially coming after STVI (cold war, racist Kirk) and GEN (death of Kirk, Enterprise destroyed again). After those two, FC was basically a caper movie.
Second, what kind of knuckle-headed producer says "That last film was the biggest hit of the franchise - let's make the next one totally different"?

That's the result of a TV producer's mentality. There was always a conscious focus during the TNG-era shows to mix things up and not do the same kind of episode week after week.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Insurrection had the bones of a good story and a decent movie. It's just that Berman wanted a softer, more cuddly film to counteract the darkness of First Contact.

Whoever made the decision, it was a bad one.
First, FC was not a particularly dark film, especially coming after STVI (cold war, racist Kirk) and GEN (death of Kirk, Enterprise destroyed again). After those two, FC was basically a caper movie.
Second, what kind of knuckle-headed producer says "That last film was the biggest hit of the franchise - let's make the next one totally different"?

Somebody who wants to keep Trek fresh and different?

Whatever our individual opinions on Insurrection, I certainly don't have a problem with them not copying "First Contact" again.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Though he helped expand the universe we are familiar with, I thought he was a stepping stone to an even larger universe. I was hoping one day that he'd relinquish his "keys to the kingdom" where someone else would take the story ahead another century with even more twists and turns.

I kept getting the impression this was kind of what was happening when ENT got cancelled (ie, Berman's day-to-day involvement in the show had been mostly relinquished to Manny Coto).

I always felt Berman knew what he was doing and was often wise with it -- for example, he advised studio executives early on against creating too many new spin-offs ad infinitium, because of a fear that Star Trek could "go to the well once too often and eventually find it bare", which is pretty accurate to what actually happened by the time of ENT -- but that, once given his orders, he followed them professionally and to the letter, even when he personally disagreed with them.

I guess I kept getting the impression of a man happy with his association with Star Trek, but somewhat hemmed in by an inability to move on from it...

Well, I was talking more about the creation of a 25th century show before they went with Enterprise.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Somebody who wants to keep Trek fresh and different?

Whatever our individual opinions on Insurrection, I certainly don't have a problem with them not copying "First Contact" again.
:techman:. True. Copying the other movies is what made Nemesis such a colossal disappointment. They tried way too hard to recapture the spirit fo TWOK and First Contact, and the result was a dumb action movie full of Trek-clichés. "Vvvvillain attacks Earthhh, because.....REVENGE!!!!! He must be stopped! :rolleyes:"

Yes I don't like Insurrection very much, because it's boring. But it was a way better TNG movie than Nemesis.

But I don't blame it for being different than the previous movie. TMP-TUC were six very different movies and I like them all. Yes, even V.

In fact, Nemesis is the only Trek I truly despise, because it ruined TNG's big finale. Is that Berman's fault? Maybe.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Well, I was talking more about the creation of a 25th century show before they went with Enterprise.

Honestly, had a 25th century show been done in 2001 it would have just had the same problem as Enterprise, that is the show would have essentially just been the exact same as the 24th century shows just with a different look. EG, no LCARS computer displays and beeps and all that. We'd probably still end up with all the recycled plots Enterprise gave us, and the show likely would still have been cancelled in its fourth season after being dramatically re-worked in the third and fourth seasons.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Insurrection had the bones of a good story and a decent movie. It's just that Berman wanted a softer, more cuddly film to counteract the darkness of First Contact.

Whoever made the decision, it was a bad one.
First, FC was not a particularly dark film, especially coming after STVI (cold war, racist Kirk) and GEN (death of Kirk, Enterprise destroyed again). After those two, FC was basically a caper movie.
Second, what kind of knuckle-headed producer says "That last film was the biggest hit of the franchise - let's make the next one totally different"?

Somebody who wants to keep Trek fresh and different?

Whatever our individual opinions on Insurrection, I certainly don't have a problem with them not copying "First Contact" again.

Idk INS feels more like a collection of recycled ideas thrown in to a movie. INS really reflects a lot of Piller's writing at the time.


Picard and the crew of the ENT going rogue for a cause he believe in.

Starfleet Officers joining the Maqui for a cause they believe in.

Both involved defending people from an oppressive force and the Federation turning a blind eye to what was happening.
-------------------------------

The displacement of a group of people from their homes. Not an idea original to Star Trek. See history of Native Americans tribes and European colonists, Pocahontas, James Cameron's Avatar etc. The Ba'Ku being displaced for their planet feels like a recycled idea of the DMZ inhabitants along the Cardassian Border. Who would later become the Maqui.
---------------------------------

The Son'a are the Viidians 2.0. Viidians didn't work as villains and the Son'a are no better. Villains with addiction to plastic surgery :guffaw:. I'm shaking in my boots.


INS is just too small a story to be told effectively. A film like James Cameron's Avatar gives the audience more than the recycled indigenous people are displace by evil white men plot. The entire world of Pandora and the culture of the Nav'i captivated the imagination of audiences. INS tries to thread this needle but audiences just didn't take. We are supposed to empathize with the Ba'ku but their isn't enough spectacle or wonder to get invested. It's just a bunch of actors who look human, being inconvenienced by stretchy faced aliens. Their boring agrarian settlement and their simple life in an age of starships and future technology just doesn't resonate like I think it was meant to.

The DS9 episode Paradise comes to mind as well.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Recycled ideas is absolutely correct. Insurrection is basically:

Homeward + Journey's End + bits from 'Who Watches the Watchers' (observation post), Brothers (Data gone rogue), and the Vidiians.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Recycled ideas is absolutely correct. Insurrection is basically:

Homeward + Journey's End + bits from 'Who Watches the Watchers' (observation post), Brothers (Data gone rogue), and the Vidiians.

Damn thing of it was that Picard's position in Insurrection is the opposite of his position in "Journey's End".
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Whoever made the decision, it was a bad one.
First, FC was not a particularly dark film, especially coming after STVI (cold war, racist Kirk) and GEN (death of Kirk, Enterprise destroyed again). After those two, FC was basically a caper movie.
Second, what kind of knuckle-headed producer says "That last film was the biggest hit of the franchise - let's make the next one totally different"?

Somebody who wants to keep Trek fresh and different?

Whatever our individual opinions on Insurrection, I certainly don't have a problem with them not copying "First Contact" again.

Idk INS feels more like a collection of recycled ideas thrown in to a movie. INS really reflects a lot of Piller's writing at the time.


Picard and the crew of the ENT going rogue for a cause he believe in.

Starfleet Officers joining the Maqui for a cause they believe in.

Both involved defending people from an oppressive force and the Federation turning a blind eye to what was happening.

I don't think there was anything Berman could have done to save the franchise during that time.

The TNG format was getting worn out and tired and it was kept being used.

It seems they kept using the same TNG TV formulas for the movies and later shows. In Nemesis, they were using jokes like, "Romulan Ale should be illegal" ... "It IS illegal".

It felt like you heard it a million times before already--on tv.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Romulan Ale's been illegal since at least Kirk's time. See his and McCoy's "Beware Romulans bearing gifts" scene from TWOK.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I think Rick Berman is the most underrated, most underappriciated individual well, like, of ALL time in ANY field...

As Harlan Ellison would say, everyone is entitled to their informed opinion.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment of Berman's abilities, but will defend your right to have and speak those opinions.

I think Rick Berman is the most underrated, most underappriciated individual well, like, of ALL time in ANY field...

No.

Okay, who do you two smarty-pants think could have done a better job at the time?

The Son'a are the Viidians 2.0. Viidians didn't work as villains and the Son'a are no better. Villains with addiction to plastic surgery :guffaw:. I'm shaking in my boots.


The Viidians were the victim of a plague, the Son'a caused their own decrepitude by being away from the immortality-giving rings around their planet (and at least the Viidians were somewhat regretful about what they had to do by harvesting organs resistant to the Phage-the Son'a didn't give a shit about who they treated badly just to be young again.) Big difference between the two races (and no, I'm not defending Insurrection-though I like it a little.
 
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Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I think Rick Berman is the most underrated, most underappriciated individual well, like, of ALL time in ANY field...

No.

Okay, who do you two smarty-pants think could have done a better job at the time?
Methinks you may have misunderstood my point, echoed by others here and here, that Rick Berman is not literally the most underrated, most underappreciated individual of all time in any field.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Okay, who do you two smarty-pants think could have done a better job at the time?
Really? Why not try to be a little less juvenile and not get personal at all. Comment on the post - not the poster.
 
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