Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link

[Guy Gardener]

Travelling in a straight line at warp 6.

Can you imagine the caravan of ships from dozens of worlds tracking Voyager, chasing down Tom Paris for child support payments?

 

[Anwar]

Well, Kirk somehow got out of it...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Not exactly.

Enterprise had access to a Federation slush fund for emergencies.

All his babymomma's were looked after.

At least, those who chose to come forward, or could come forward.

meanwhile, Voyager stood alone.

No slush fund, no infinite resources.

Just endless phalanxes of shotgun welding hillbillies wanting that blond shit to marry their daughter.

 

[Anwar]

What, they can clone people but no one knows how to use contraceptives anymore?

 

[fireproof78]

Exactly. This was a tension that could have continued for a couple of episodes, not neat and tidy at the end. Instead we get two or three subplot of Neelix being jealous over Kes

Again, like most of the conflict in Voyager there just wasn't enough to last that long. Paris wasn't even WITH The Maquis very long so there wasn't THAT much animosity between him and Chakotay.

But yeah, it could've lasted maybe half a season.

Exactly my point. It doesn't have to be hatred and tension for the entire show. But, characters change and grow. So, having them start off with animosity and moving past it, Tom proving himself, earning Janeway's and Chakotay's trust, is called character development.

Unfortunately, development was reserved for the Doctor, for the most part. Probably as a credit to Picardo as much as anyone else.

The audience thinks VOY will give them new aliens. VOY gives them new cool aliens that can do cool stuff and gets nothing in return resembling appreciation. Then audience gets PO'ed that VOY decides against further new aliens which was due to their own petulance.

Honestly, most new aliens received scant explanation. That will piss off an audience if they get a bare sketch of a bad guy with no motivation.

They were unlucky and hired bad actors in some cases (Robert Beltran and Garret Wang being the main offenders), while other Producers wanted to write a smaller cast instead of a big ensemble.

This is not the fault of the audience.

It's rectified by coming up with a new plot and dropping the "Lost Ship" thing after the first season. Like every other "Lost Ship" show worth remembering from the last 40 years did.

Too bad they got a bad reaction every time they tried a new plot.

Again, not by the evidence I have seen. The problem rested with the characters and lack of moving forward.

The "Lost Ship" plot requires careful handling, a balancing between showing them making progress, and taking them home. You don't abandon it, you use it, you create progress through contact with home, or near home, you make people care that these people are trying to get home, not yank the rug out from under them.

If the only thing a villain had going for them was being mysterious and not showing up much, they're a poorly thought out enemy.

Yet, the mystique of the Borg was one reason people liked them so much as a villain. They are a faceless, remorseless, killing machine. There were powerful to the point of dismantling an entire Federation fleet with little more than a pause in their plans.

When you have a villain show up again, and again, only to be defeated again and again, then it is no longer a threat. That is what VOY did to the Borg.

It was UPN's flagship show and they were willing to let it go on for the 7 year run TNG got as long as they didn't deviate from the TNG formula. That was their addition to all the other constraints VOY was stuck with.

Again, not the fault of the audience.

 

[Anwar]

Unfortunately, development was reserved for the Doctor, for the most part. Probably as a credit to Picardo as much as anyone else.

Picardo took minor scenes and made them great by putting effort into his work. Thus he'd get more to do because he did his job.

Honestly, most new aliens received scant explanation. That will piss off an audience if they get a bare sketch of a bad guy with no motivation.

The Vidiians, Hirogen, 8472 Aliens, etc got just as much explanation for their motivations as the Klingons, Romulans, Borg, Dominion and Cardassians did.

Again, not by the evidence I have seen. The problem rested with the characters and lack of moving forward.

It was always going to be some immediate Deus Ex Machina that got them home. That's how the show started in the first place.

The "Lost Ship" plot requires careful handling, a balancing between showing them making progress, and taking them home.

It's a starter plot. You use it to set up the show and then you start up other plots to keep it going while the "Lost Ship" thing becomes a background element.

Yet, the mystique of the Borg was one reason people liked them so much as a villain. They are a faceless, remorseless, killing machine. There were powerful to the point of dismantling an entire Federation fleet with little more than a pause in their plans.

That's only good for 2 stories or so. As TNG amply showed us.

That is what VOY did to the Borg.

TNG started it. VOY's audience hating every attempt at a new plot and new adversaries is what brought on the Borg.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What, they can clone people but no one knows how to use contraceptives anymore?

Aliens have weird sperms and weird eggs that need specially targeted contraceptives to work.

By this argument having babies with unknown aliens should be as difficult as finding contraceptives for unknown biologies.

Do you know what Robot Chicken is?

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=264s-sFqvTA[/yt]

 

[fireproof78]

Unfortunately, development was reserved for the Doctor, for the most part. Probably as a credit to Picardo as much as anyone else.

Picardo took minor scenes and made them great by putting effort into his work. Thus he'd get more to do because he did his job.

Good for him. The problem, again, is with the rest of the cast, writers and directors not caring. Again, not because the audience "hated VOY."

Honestly, most new aliens received scant explanation. That will piss off an audience if they get a bare sketch of a bad guy with no motivation.

The Vidiians, Hirogen, 8472 Aliens, etc got just as much explanation for their motivations as the Klingons, Romulans, Borg, Dominion and Cardassians did.

Sure, but the aliens from most episodes did not. The aliens that seemed to reappear, resonated better with the audience. But there were several aliens of the week that not only made no sense, but offered no explanation as to why they did it, and the crew didn't care.

If the crew doesn't care, I don't have to care.

It was always going to be some immediate Deus Ex Machina that got them home. That's how the show started in the first place.

Started it, but doesn't have to end that way. There are so many different paths to take, with a little creativity.

It's a starter plot. You use it to set up the show and then you start up other plots to keep it going while the "Lost Ship" thing becomes a background element.

Yes, exactly so. You can be lost, and make steps towards home. Kind of like "2 Broke Girls" with the ending "Total Savings" as their goal. Are you going to reach the goal fast? No, but you don't ignore the goal either.

Yet, the mystique of the Borg was one reason people liked them so much as a villain. They are a faceless, remorseless, killing machine. There were powerful to the point of dismantling an entire Federation fleet with little more than a pause in their plans.

That's only good for 2 stories or so. As TNG amply showed us.

Not really. TNG presented us with the Borg as a faceless enemy. Then they got a face in Locutus and Hugh. They prove to be difficult to defeat and require a bit of creativity to defeat. We have Lore trying to use them, which presented more character growth for Hugh and Data.

Then, we have First Contact, which presented a whole new side of the Borg, a different dynamic that incorporated both the faceless menace (in the beginning) and the new face in the Borg Queen.

The Borg were not defeated in these circumstances save by creativity and sacrifice on the part of the crew.

VOY just presents the Borg as this insurmountable obstacle, except for our heroes, who take on a Class 4 tactical cube like it was raiding your local bank.

Again, there was a lack of seriousness that makes me not care. YMMV

That is what VOY did to the Borg.

TNG started it. VOY's audience hating every attempt at a new plot and new adversaries is what brought on the Borg.

See above. TNG did more creative things with the Borg, while VOY just kept bringing them back only to have them defeated with ease by Janeway.

 

[Anwar]

Sure, but the aliens from most episodes did not. The aliens that seemed to reappear, resonated better with the audience. But there were several aliens of the week that not only made no sense, but offered no explanation as to why they did it, and the crew didn't care.

If the crew doesn't care, I don't have to care.

Same as TOS, TNG and DS9 did with many of their aliens of the week, then.

Started it, but doesn't have to end that way. There are so many different paths to take, with a little creativity.

Doesn't help that this very premise was already done to death by TOS and TNG.

Yes, exactly so. You can be lost, and make steps towards home. Kind of like "2 Broke Girls" with the ending "Total Savings" as their goal. Are you going to reach the goal fast? No, but you don't ignore the goal either.

You do put it in the background and perhaps accomplish it but then change the premise to something else.

But this would require them to have free access to the Alpha Quadrant, which they couldn't do while DS9 was still airing.

Not really. TNG presented us with the Borg as a faceless enemy. Then they got a face in Locutus and Hugh.

And a lot of people will say that's when the Borg lost their power.

Then, we have First Contact, which presented a whole new side of the Borg, a different dynamic that incorporated both the faceless menace (in the beginning) and the new face in the Borg Queen.

And the Borg Queen gets derided too.

The Borg were not defeated in these circumstances save by creativity and sacrifice on the part of the crew.

There was NEVER sacrifice involve in those stories. Never anyone of importance killed or any permanent damage done.

VOY just presents the Borg as this insurmountable obstacle, except for our heroes, who take on a Class 4 tactical cube like it was raiding your local bank.

No worse than Kirk or Picard always taking out whatever God Being threatening Earth they encountered.

See above. TNG did more creative things with the Borg, while VOY just kept bringing them back only to have them defeated with ease by Janeway.

TNG only ever had them fight the Collective once, in Q Who? and BOBW (which can be considered one big 3 part story). After that, it was just "I, Borg" and "Descent" where they weren't really Borg but just random cyborgs.

If VOY's aliens weren't despised on premiere, it'd have more to work with.

 

[fireproof78]

Sure, but the aliens from most episodes did not. The aliens that seemed to reappear, resonated better with the audience. But there were several aliens of the week that not only made no sense, but offered no explanation as to why they did it, and the crew didn't care.

If the crew doesn't care, I don't have to care.

Same as TOS, TNG and DS9 did with many of their aliens of the week, then.

Yes, but the actors cared and treated them as a legitimate threat.

That was not the case with VOY.

Started it, but doesn't have to end that way. There are so many different paths to take, with a little creativity.

Doesn't help that this very premise was already done to death by TOS and TNG.

Not really. Not in the way VOY attempted to start out.

You do put it in the background and perhaps accomplish it but then change the premise to something else.

But this would require them to have free access to the Alpha Quadrant, which they couldn't do while DS9 was still airing.

You don't have to.

And a lot of people will say that's when the Borg lost their power.

Sure, and lot's of people say that anything after TOS is garbage and not "real Star Trek."

And the Borg Queen gets derided too.

So does General Chang. Derision doesn't=bad. The Queen was also horribly overused in VOY. Again, basically as the incompetent, "I'll get you next time, Gadget" villain. No longer a threat.

There was NEVER sacrifice involve in those stories. Never anyone of importance killed or any permanent damage done.

Yes, but it was treated as though there could be. Again, character presentation is key to give the possibility of sacrifice, even if there is no sacrifice in the end. Oh, and Data torturing Geordi. Boy, that a hilarious scene, wasn't it?

VOY just presents the Borg as this insurmountable obstacle, except for our heroes, who take on a Class 4 tactical cube like it was raiding your local bank.

No worse than Kirk or Picard always taking out whatever God Being threatening Earth they encountered.

Again, it was always with a certain level of gravity and seriousness, for the most part (there will always be exceptions). VOY didn't take itself seriously.

See above. TNG did more creative things with the Borg, while VOY just kept bringing them back only to have them defeated with ease by Janeway.

TNG only ever had them fight the Collective once, in Q Who? and BOBW (which can be considered one big 3 part story). After that, it was just "I, Borg" and "Descent" where they weren't really Borg but just random cyborgs.

If VOY's aliens weren't despised on premiere, it'd have more to work with.

Right, because somehow audience "hatred" (still not seeing it) translates in to poor direction and creativity for a show.

VOY had its moments where the actors really sold it, and convinced me of a threat. But, those moments are few and far between. The Borg were just a symptom of a larger apathy, in my opinion.

 

[Mareika]

They were unlucky and hired bad actors in some cases (Robert Beltran and Garret Wang being the main offenders), while other Producers wanted to write a smaller cast instead of a big ensemble.

Beltran is such a bad actor that he was given a group of actors to direct them to perform "Julius Caesar" on stage this fall.

http://shakespeareinla.com/2014/09/...festival-to-include-casa-0101s-julius-caesar/

 

[MacLeod]

What possible hurt VOY and I think even some of creative team have voiced it as well was it followed straight on the heels of TNG, If there had been a couple of years gap then it might have faired slightly better. True S7 of TNG wasn't it's best, but the memory of TNG was still fresh in the audiances minds.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Berman's 10 year contract paid him a lot of money to oversee all Star Trek.

If he had wanted another ten year contract when the current had finished, things had to have gone better than they did.

Two successful shows and a movie franchise, turned into one low rated expensive as hell to make ratings failure show.

TPTB actually waited him out for a year or so after Enterprise failed.

Paying him to do nothing, was a much better prospect than paying him to lose them even more money.

Rick wasn't allowed to start anything new, because he wasn't going to be there to see it finished.

Cue JJ.

 

[Anwar]

Yes, but the actors cared and treated them as a legitimate threat.

That was not the case with VOY.

Sometimes it was, sometimes it wasn't.

Just like every other Trek.

Not really. Not in the way VOY attempted to start out.

Being pulled away by some random Space God was done by both TNG and TOS. Only difference way they got home a lot faster.

You don't have to.

It would either require access to the Alpha Quadrant or having a more solid connection to the Delta Quadrant (like having most of the main cast BE from the Delta Quadrant).

So does General Chang. Derision doesn't=bad. The Queen was also horribly overused in VOY. Again, basically as the incompetent, "I'll get you next time, Gadget" villain. No longer a threat.

That's what happens when there's no cannon fodder to sacrifice to villains.

Yes, but it was treated as though there could be. Again, character presentation is key to give the possibility of sacrifice, even if there is no sacrifice in the end. Oh, and Data torturing Geordi. Boy, that a hilarious scene, wasn't it?

Descent is one of the double standard examples I'm talking about. No one had a problem with the Ent-D's SKELETON crew taking out a powerful Borg ship, but if VOY had done the same thing all they'd get were complaints.

Again, it was always with a certain level of gravity and seriousness, for the most part (there will always be exceptions). VOY didn't take itself seriously.

Sure it did.

VOY had its moments where the actors really sold it, and convinced me of a threat. But, those moments are few and far between. The Borg were just a symptom of a larger apathy, in my opinion.

Berman even stated (before they made VOY) that he didn't think having another show on at the same time as DS9 was a good idea.

He also didn't want to do ENT so soon after VOY either.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, but the actors cared and treated them as a legitimate threat.

That was not the case with VOY.

Sometimes it was, sometimes it wasn't.

Just like every other Trek.

I'll modify. It was rarely the case with VOY, while TNG and TOS often brought a level of gravity even when spouting nonsense.

VOY could be lacking in that area most of the time.

Not really. Not in the way VOY attempted to start out.

Being pulled away by some random Space God was done by both TNG and TOS. Only difference way they got home a lot faster.

Right, that's the difference. It's not a survival scenario. VOY's whole premise was that scenario, so it isn't the same, because the writers have to keep the idea of getting home going. So, keep that premise alive.

It would either require access to the Alpha Quadrant or having a more solid connection to the Delta Quadrant (like having most of the main cast BE from the Delta Quadrant).

Or access to the Beta Quadrant or the Gamma Quadrant. Again, be creative and not put them in a box. The writers, however, preferred the box.

That's what happens when there's no cannon fodder to sacrifice to villains.

Right, because no one ever died on VOY
Sorry, the Borg got depowered in several episodes, demonstrating they are no different than the typical enemy of the week of VOY.

Descent is one of the double standard examples I'm talking about. No one had a problem with the Ent-D's SKELETON crew taking out a powerful Borg ship, but if VOY had done the same thing all they'd get were complaints.

Speculation, because several complaints have been made with the C-list bridge crew dealing with a Borg ship.

Again, it was always with a certain level of gravity and seriousness, for the most part (there will always be exceptions). VOY didn't take itself seriously.

Sure it did.

Rarely, and definitely not by the writers and producers.

VOY had its moments where the actors really sold it, and convinced me of a threat. But, those moments are few and far between. The Borg were just a symptom of a larger apathy, in my opinion.

Berman even stated (before they made VOY) that he didn't think having another show on at the same time as DS9 was a good idea.

He also didn't want to do ENT so soon after VOY either.

And he was right. But, that doesn't change how the show was run, nor does that somehow put the blame on the audience for the quality of the show.

 

[Anwar]

I'll modify. It was rarely the case with VOY, while TNG and TOS often brought a level of gravity even when spouting nonsense.

VOY could be lacking in that area most of the time.

Like when? What examples do you have to back that up?

Right, that's the difference. It's not a survival scenario. VOY's whole premise was that scenario, so it isn't the same, because the writers have to keep the idea of getting home going. So, keep that premise alive.

And like I've been saying, it's just not that sustainable a premise. Every single Lost Ship show of the last 40 years always dropped that plot after a season or two because they all realized it was a Dead End plot.

Or access to the Beta Quadrant or the Gamma Quadrant. Again, be creative and not put them in a box. The writers, however, preferred the box.

If they were not going to have any connection to where they'd been teleported, there was no point in them being in that area of space to begin with. They could've dumped them at the opposite end of the Alpha Quadrant and it's make no difference.

Right, because no one ever died on VOY

Not to the degree needed to build up an enemy, no.

Imagine how intimidating the Dominion would be if they never ever destroyed one ship, killed one person, had no war storyline, etc.

Sorry, the Borg got depowered in several episodes, demonstrating they are no different than the typical enemy of the week of VOY.

Give them pre-established species to assimilate, pre-established warships to destroy and pre-established worlds to hack up. Then there's their threat returned.

Against one scout ship that a kick in the shins would blow up, decay was inevitable.

Speculation, because several complaints have been made with the C-list bridge crew dealing with a Borg ship.

None as bad as VOY's critiques.

Rarely, and definitely not by the writers and producers.

When? Give me a specific where they didn't take things seriously.

 

[fireproof78]

I'll modify. It was rarely the case with VOY, while TNG and TOS often brought a level of gravity even when spouting nonsense.

VOY could be lacking in that area most of the time.

Like when? What examples do you have to back that up?

Booby trap springs immediately to mind.

Right, that's the difference. It's not a survival scenario. VOY's whole premise was that scenario, so it isn't the same, because the writers have to keep the idea of getting home going. So, keep that premise alive.

And like I've been saying, it's just not that sustainable a premise. Every single Lost Ship show of the last 40 years always dropped that plot after a season or two because they all realized it was a Dead End plot.

The problem is that they never did anything with it. So, it may be a dead end plot, but they never even tried.

I get that it doesn't have to remain "The Lost Ship" show but it could have been more than just the TNG formula but in the Delta Quadrant. It could have evolved to gradual contact, which, when that started, actually made the show more interesting.

If they were not going to have any connection to where they'd been teleported, there was no point in them being in that area of space to begin with. They could've dumped them at the opposite end of the Alpha Quadrant and it's make no difference.

Not especially show, but I kind of see your point. However, if you don't have a connection (such as no Neelix) then you make a connection. Again, by character growth.

Not to the degree needed to build up an enemy, no.

Then don't bring back the Borg

Imagine how intimidating the Dominion would be if they never ever destroyed one ship, killed one person, had no war storyline, etc.

I can, and they are still pretty terrifying.
If all you do is kill 'em, you're doing it wrong.

Give them pre-established species to assimilate, pre-established warships to destroy and pre-established worlds to hack up. Then there's their threat returned.

Against one scout ship that a kick in the shins would blow up, decay was inevitable.

It didn't have to be. Again, it's putting VOY in a black and white box that is not necessary for story writing.

Heck, Firefly (and the film Serenity) did this and it didn't have one season.

Speculation, because several complaints have been made with the C-list bridge crew dealing with a Borg ship.

None as bad as VOY's critiques.

Rarely, and definitely not by the writers and producers.

When? Give me a specific where they didn't take things seriously.

Relatvity, Twisted, Parturition, and the fact that the death of the Doctor's daughter in "Real Life" meant about as much as a Gold Shirt.

Part of the problem goes back to the writers and producers and their attitude towards the show, was a lack of vision. If Berman cared so much, he had an odd way of showing it.

If the audience hated it so much, but UPN won't cancel it, than do whatever you want with it, regardless of what the audience wants. There is more freedom there many realized.

But, the problem with VOY is that it had so much potential, but often failed to deliver on the possibilities.

Again, YMMV.

 

[Anwar]

Booby trap springs immediately to mind.

I meant examples wherein VOY was lacking, not a TNG example.

The problem is that they never did anything with it. So, it may be a dead end plot, but they never even tried.

I agree, but even if they tried it still would've gone nowhere. They needed to replace it with something else.

I get that it doesn't have to remain "The Lost Ship" show but it could have been more than just the TNG formula but in the Delta Quadrant. It could have evolved to gradual contact, which, when that started, actually made the show more interesting.

They should've thought up the replacement plot before they started doing the show so they knew how to set it up while shoving the Lost Ship thing to the background.

Not especially show, but I kind of see your point. However, if you don't have a connection (such as no Neelix) then you make a connection. Again, by character growth.

More of the crew should've been DQ natives who were enemies of the antagonist aliens they encountered and allies to potential friends VOY could make. That way there's lots of connection from the Main Cast.

Then don't bring back the Borg

If they never showed the Borg, then the audience would just complain they threw them to Borg Central for no reason.

I can, and they are still pretty terrifying.
If all you do is kill 'em, you're doing it wrong.

And if you have no connection to anything and can never show off your power, you're doing it wrong.

It didn't have to be. Again, it's putting VOY in a black and white box that is not necessary for story writing.

Heck, Firefly (and the film Serenity) did this and it didn't have one season.

Exactly, it barely lasted.

Relatvity, Twisted, Parturition, and the fact that the death of the Doctor's daughter in "Real Life" meant about as much as a Gold Shirt.

TOS did this too with Kirk's throwaway Women. Or his own brother. Or one of his dearest friends (Gary Mitchell).

Part of the problem goes back to the writers and producers and their attitude towards the show, was a lack of vision. If Berman cared so much, he had an odd way of showing it.

Berman's power was nominal.

If the audience hated it so much, but UPN won't cancel it, than do whatever you want with it, regardless of what the audience wants. There is more freedom there many realized.

UPN was micromanaging it like crazy compared to TOS, TNG and DS9.

But, the problem with VOY is that it had so much potential, but often failed to deliver on the possibilities.

Again, YMMV.

It had conceptual problems from day one that should've been recognize and ironed out. It also came at the wrong time.

 

[fireproof78]

Booby trap springs immediately to mind.

I meant examples wherein VOY was lacking, not a TNG example.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Unimatrix Zero, The Swarm and Friendship One. Those are ones that come to my mind, but again, that is a matter of personal opinion.

The problem is that they never did anything with it. So, it may be a dead end plot, but they never even tried.

I agree, but even if they tried it still would've gone nowhere. They needed to replace it with something else.



They should've thought up the replacement plot before they started doing the show so they knew how to set it up while shoving the Lost Ship thing to the background.

Quite right. It should have been better plotted out, because it set out with a premise that made it different from TOS, TNG, DS9. That premise should have been better thought out to make it more successful.

More of the crew should've been DQ natives who were enemies of the antagonist aliens they encountered and allies to potential friends VOY could make. That way there's lots of connection from the Main Cast.

That could work, though I don't see it as necessary. You can make connections without having them in the main cast. But, that requires a little more development beyond the one time visit of friends or foes.

If they never showed the Borg, then the audience would just complain they threw them to Borg Central for no reason.

Not necessarily.

And if you have no connection to anything and can never show off your power, you're doing it wrong.

Um, I think you're misunderstanding what I meant. You can be a very incredible threat, and never kill someone.

Exactly, it barely lasted.

Again, I am afraid that you are missing point. This is not about why Firefly failed (which is outside the scope of this discussion) and nor was that the reason why Firefly failed.

My point was that they demonstrated the threat of the villain not by killing main characters, or supporting characters but showing the villain taking a slash and burn approach to their resting grounds.

If Voyager needed to show the Borg as a threat, then having them assimilating previously visited worlds is not only continuity but creates a larger world.

TOS did this too with Kirk's throwaway Women. Or his own brother. Or one of his dearest friends (Gary Mitchell).

TOS was not set up in the same way VOY did. TOS was far more episodic, while VOY was a continuing journey. Continuity means more. Even TNG and DS9 realized this.

Berman's power was nominal.

Not from what I have read. This happened more with Enterprise. He was under pressure from the studio to perform or they would replace him, but that does not indicate his diminished role or power.

If the audience hated it so much, but UPN won't cancel it, than do whatever you want with it, regardless of what the audience wants. There is more freedom there many realized.

UPN was micromanaging it like crazy compared to TOS, TNG and DS9.

DS9 had it as well, being the apparent successor to TNG.

But, the problem with VOY is that it had so much potential, but often failed to deliver on the possibilities.


Again, YMMV.

It had conceptual problems from day one that should've been recognize and ironed out. It also came at the wrong time.

Indeed it did, and those problems never really went away, in a satisfying way.

Finally, for those who think I'm being argumentative for arguement's sake, I have no problem if fans like VOY or find enjoyment from it.

I don't scrutinize it any more, or any less, than other Trek. I just don't find it as engaging or relate to the characters as much. And characters are usually the thing I enjoy regardless of the quality of production

 

[Anwar]

Unimatrix Zero, The Swarm and Friendship One. Those are ones that come to my mind, but again, that is a matter of personal opinion.

If Unimatrix Zero had been a TNG episode and it had been about them getting roped into some scheme of Hugh and his renegade Borg, I doubt anyone would've cared.

Quite right. It should have been better plotted out, because it set out with a premise that made it different from TOS, TNG, DS9. That premise should have been better thought out to make it more successful.

The whole "Lost Ship" premise was never that interesting in the first place. It's a starter plot/excuse plot. It's just what starts the show, but then they drop it in favor of something else.

That could work, though I don't see it as necessary. You can make connections without having them in the main cast. But, that requires a little more development beyond the one time visit of friends or foes.

That the audience got PO'ed whenever any aliens showed up more than once was another problem.

Not necessarily.

It'd be like if DS9 made a big deal out of some Gamma Quadrant region being full of nothing but Jem'Hadar and then when they go into it there's no Jem'Hadar.

Um, I think you're misunderstanding what I meant. You can be a very incredible threat, and never kill someone.

Every single Trek example says otherwise.

My point was that they demonstrated the threat of the villain not by killing main characters, or supporting characters but showing the villain taking a slash and burn approach to their resting grounds.

Yes, they had cannon fodder to sacrifice to the Alliance. VOY had nothing to sacrifice that would've satisfied the audience.

If Voyager needed to show the Borg as a threat, then having them assimilating previously visited worlds is not only continuity but creates a larger world.

Exactly, cannon fodder.

TOS was not set up in the same way VOY did. TOS was far more episodic, while VOY was a continuing journey. Continuity means more. Even TNG and DS9 realized this.

But still, no one complains about TOS.

Not from what I have read. This happened more with Enterprise. He was under pressure from the studio to perform or they would replace him, but that does not indicate his diminished role or power.

If that were true, then the Network wouldn't have been able to keep forcing stuff on the shows he didn't want to do.

DS9 had it as well, being the apparent successor to TNG.

DS9 had it pretty easy compared to VOY. Ira Behr and Ron Moore are simply making a mountain out of a molehill.

Indeed it did, and those problems never really went away, in a satisfying way.

Cause they were inherently in the plot they went with. More time and a change of premises would've fixed that.

Finally, for those who think I'm being argumentative for arguement's sake, I have no problem if fans like VOY or find enjoyment from it.

You're far more polite over this than others I've encountered.

And characters are usually the thing I enjoy regardless of the quality of production

I think the ensemble cast was too large as well. They should've only had Janeway, Chakotay (not Beltran), Tuvok, Paris and the Doctor as the Centrals.

Kim (someone other than Wang), Kes, Neelix and Torres would be the Secondaries.

Makes more room for other recurring characters too, if the main cast is smaller.