Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link

[Hypaspist]

The lost ship was a good idea but they didn't really get that much out of it. Contrast with BSG, which ran that stuff into the ground (and did it well)! I honestly think that they were more interested in world building and fleshing out "the franchise" with the Delta quadrant than they were with any sort of ongoing plot.

But hey, it didn't ruin it like Enterprise! I hate Enterprise so much I don't know if I would burn it or Kevin Smith first if I had the chance.

 

[Praxius]

I said A LOT not ALL. Of course the entire male viewership didn't hate Voyager because Janeway was a woman. But I've lurked on forums where many have said derogatory comments because of her gender.

That works both ways and shouldn't be taken personally or as a direct sexist attack.

How many women have made comments to Riker and Kirk being womanizing sex-addicts who think with their D**ks more than their brains.... and seemed to have ignored the rest of their character?

I've heard that plenty of times from many women too.... but I take it with a grain of salt and contain such comments within the context they're presented in.

In a few episodes, I could honestly say that Janeway felt like an Overbearing, Self-Righteous, Knowitall B*tch with Overcompensation Issues..... but I don't think she was like this all the time and also had some good traits and even did a few things the same way I could see myself doing them.

But we all have our moments. Just because I thought she was a B*tch in a few situations, that doesn't make me sexist. I've called other males far worse in my day.

...... Now that I think about it... it could have been a very interesting show if Janeway had those Riker/Kirk traits

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

I'm sorry if I sounded argumentative. That was not my intention. I was just stating what I had read regarding other peoples' opinions on her. Yes she can be a bit hard at times but I think they did that in order for her to come across as tough. Kate Mulgrew and the producers really had to prove that Janeway could be as competent a captain as any of the men that came before her

 

[Anwar]

The lost ship was a good idea but they didn't really get that much out of it. Contrast with BSG, which ran that stuff into the ground (and did it well)!

NuBSG ran out of steam after two seasons, fell apart in the 3rd season and ended with a literal deus ex machina in S4.

The Lost Ship thing just isn't sustainable.

Worst thing was, they had perfectly good series plots in "The Void" and "Scorpion" but the critical panning they got in those stories turned them off doing anything with those concepts.

 

[Praxius]

I'm sorry if I sounded argumentative. That was not my intention. I was just stating what I had read regarding other peoples' opinions on her. Yes she can be a bit hard at times but I think they did that in order for her to come across as tough. Kate Mulgrew and the producers really had to prove that Janeway could be as competent a captain as any of the men that came before her

No worries, I know you weren't trying to start an argument.... and I agree. They tried to make her tough so she could stand up beside the previous captains, who were all male..... and it shows. They tried too hard and should have just let the character flow naturally.

People would have gotten her personality and related to her better in the long run, but for some people, she came off as a ball-breaker..... regardless of gender.

I think the best way to explain it is that she tried so hard to prove to everybody that she knew what she was doing that she got an "Edward Jellico Complex."

Both tried to run a very tight ship and even though the end results proved their methods worked, I think Riker put it best:

"Well... Now that the ranks are dropped, Captain, I don't like you either. *You* are arrogant, and closed-minded. You need to control everything and everyone. You don't provide an atmosphere of trust, and you don't inspire these people to go out of their way for you. You've got everybody wound up so tight, there's no joy in anything. I don't think you're a particularly good captain."

^ Janeway was certainly not the same level or extreme of Jellico, but she leaned more his way of doing things than any previous Captain. Her crew had trust in her 95% of the time, but the rigidity on how she ran the ship could carve wood.

 

[fireproof78]

I was surprised to learn about the hate when I first started watching. I do think some of it is due to sexism. I'm betting a lot of male viewers weren't ready for a woman in the captain's chair. Voyager is my first Trek. I will admit that the only reason it peaked my interest is because I found out it had a female captain, which I thought was really awesome. But I've stayed with it because I grew to love a lot of the other characters as well and their journey of finding their way home. I like that it has a lot of character development. It's my first and will be my last.

An interesting take, but not one that I follow very well. I will agree that Janeway has had some sexist remarks and I don't support those, but I have seen some rather nasty remarks towards Archer, Sisko and Pine's Kirk. But, then, I had no problem with Janeway beyond the general incompetence feeling I got from the whole Voyager crew, aside from Tom Paris and Tuvok.]

Voyager, for me, was just so forgettable and lacking in fulfilling its premise. I know this argument has happened before, but Voyager's premise did not have to be a death blow. It would have to be an evolving premise, an approach that TNG and DS9 did quite well. But, Voyager never really evolved it's premise, save in little snippets, and that was not enough to interest me.

Usually characters are enough to save a show for me, but I didn't really connect with any of the characters in the show, or find them enjoyable. So, I might be biased, but I just felt the show never lived up to it's potential.

Also, too much Borg.

I'm sorry if I sounded argumentative. That was not my intention. I was just stating what I had read regarding other peoples' opinions on her. Yes she can be a bit hard at times but I think they did that in order for her to come across as tough. Kate Mulgrew and the producers really had to prove that Janeway could be as competent a captain as any of the men that came before her

No worries, I know you weren't trying to start an argument.... and I agree. They tried to make her tough so she could stand up beside the previous captains, who were all male..... and it shows. They tried too hard and should have just let the character flow naturally.

People would have gotten her personality and related to her better in the long run, but for some people, she came off as a ball-breaker..... regardless of gender.

I think the best way to explain it is that she tried so hard to prove to everybody that she knew what she was doing that she got an "Edward Jellico Complex."

Both tried to run a very tight ship and even though the end results proved their methods worked, I think Riker put it best:

"Well... Now that the ranks are dropped, Captain, I don't like you either. *You* are arrogant, and closed-minded. You need to control everything and everyone. You don't provide an atmosphere of trust, and you don't inspire these people to go out of their way for you. You've got everybody wound up so tight, there's no joy in anything. I don't think you're a particularly good captain."

^ Janeway was certainly not the same level or extreme of Jellico, but she leaned more his way of doing things than any previous Captain. Her crew had trust in her 95% of the time, but the rigidity on how she ran the ship could carve wood.

Well put. You said what I really couldn't figure out how to say.

 

[Melakon]

I don't think the fan reaction is genuine hate, but disappointment that the series went through phases of never reaching its full potential. I tended to favor the really weird shows that often showed up from Braga & Menosky. One I'm currently watching all too frequently this month is "Living Witness", giving us as close as we ever got to Mirror Universe Voyager.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Voyager hate is hard for me to figure out. There are some really stupid ideas here and there, but if you just overlook the few bad episodes you can see a lot of good ones.

The same can't be said for Enterprise. Enterprise was terrible and deserved to fail. There is nothing good about it. All of Voyager's faults are worse in Enterprise, and it has none of the redeeming factors of at least seeing strange new worlds. I don't see how people can hate Janeway because she's bossy but accept the completely wooden characters of Enterprise. I'd rather there be no Trek than there be Enterprise again.

You know I feel the exactly opposite. I don't think VOY has as many strong episodes say TNG and DS9 but they weren't all bad. VOY was let down by it's premise and too little development in it's characters. Janeway, Seven and the Doctor made out like bandits. Chakotay and Kim however are both bland and boring. Their lines and contributions to the crew could be exposited by nameless cast members. Tuvok and Tom Paris had more charm to them, but both are under utilized. Tuvok being First Officer on VOY would've made a more interesting dynamic than Chakotay and Janeway. B'Elenna and Neelix were hit and miss but mostly miss. Neelix was supposed to be the breakout character of VOY but he was annoying and not very helpful. Torres had a crappy attitude and unfriendly disposition, which she scapegoated her mixed heritage as the cause of.

I don't dislike Janeway but I can the the writers/showrunners (Jeri Taylor, Michael Piller, Kenneth Biller and Brannon Braga) went the whole 9 yards in making Janeway a tough and commanding Captain, despite the bad decisions Janeway made throughout the series.


As for ENT, it had the misfortune of coming out at a time when the market was over saturated with Trek. Rick Berman warned Paramount about this but they didn't care. ENT also suffered from the first 2 seasons lacking direction. But when you look at the trend with other Star Trek shows

TNG season 1 and 2
DS9 season 1 and 2
VOY season 1 and 2

None of them make out very well in terms of quality and quantity of good episodes. The first two seasons are a mish mash of hit and miss. By season 3 for all the 80's, 90's and 00's shows though, is when the series begin the turn for what would define them. With season 4 being the reaffirmation of what was laid down in season 3.

TNG had Yesterday's Enterprise, Sins of the Father, The Enemy, The Defector, Most Toys, Best of Both Worlds 1-2, Data's Day, The Wounded, Redemption, Brothers, Family

DS9 has The Search 1-2, Die is Cast, Improbable Cause, Heart of Stone, Defiant, Way of the Warrior, Homefront + Paradise Lost, Sons of Mogh, For the Cause, Broken Link

VOY had Future's End, Fair Trade, Before and After, Scorpion 1-2, The Gift, Year of Hell 1-2, Mortal Coil, Message in a Bottle, The Killing Game 1-2, Hope and Fear

ENT had it's shot in the arm right on schedule with it's season long arc the Xindi in season 3 and season 4 moving toward forming the Federation we would see in TOS. But TPTB had run out of patience with Trek at that point and decided to drop the axe on the franchise. For the record both VOY and DS9 were threatened with cancellation during their 3rd seasons as well. Which is why they straightened up and relaunched the shows with Way of the Warrior and Scorpion respectively.

Had ENT gone on with Manny Coto as show runner, we would've gotten the Earth Romulan War in season 5. Season 6 and 7 presumably moving toward the founding of the Coalition of Planets. BUT never retreading the TCW nonsense that was injected in the first 2 seasons. Just like VOY dropped the Kazon and DS9 moving away from Bajoran internal politics of the week after their first 2 seasons.

 

[Praxius]

The thing about the first two seasons of each show (can't remember if I posted it already in this thread) was that they were usually designed in a way that focused more on the character development/background and setting the scene/environment. This is how I saw them and is also why each show didn't have much punch until season 3 of each when they move forward into the larger general plot of what each crew would be focusing on.

While TNG seemed to fair well in branching out on different subjects more often like TOS, DS9 hit gold once the Dominion came into play..... And Voyager hit their gold when the Borg became a factor.

I'm also glad the Kazon got pushed out of the show.... They were like a poor-man's Klingon without anything really defining them other than scavengers with big ships and guns.

Using the Borg was a smart idea for Voyager and made things much more interesting, but again, the character development that should have been more a part of Seasons 1-2 were lacking and when season 3 came along, most of the character development went almost exclusively to Seven of Nine with a side of the Doctor..... And a lot of pepper of Janeway pushing her views on what they should or shouldn't be doing with their identity explorations and social skills as recognized individuals.

I feel the worst for Chakotay. As first officers go, We got a lot of development and background for Spock, Riker and Kira and whether you liked or hated them, you knew who they were and where they came from. Chakotay had a short stint as a rough first officer trying to help get home while looking out for his original crew, and they showed a bit about his peaceful spiritual side from time to time, but then that was really it outside of the command structure and his little stint with Seska. (which wasn't so much about his past but present)

Harry Kim at least had more background going for him in regards to his music, his wife & life back home, becoming the night watch captain so to speak, etc.

Chakotay just kind of lingered after all of the above and quickly went from a Maquis rebel captain of his own ship, to a "Yes Captain.... Yes Captain.... I support you in everything."

There could have been a few good drama conflicts that could have come out of his difference of being a Maquis and not Starfleet.... Yet he almost immediately fit right into the role of first officer and Commander with only a couple of episodes of tension.

Granted I remember an episode where Janeway was going off the edge of her reasoning, the crew had issues and he got into a heated debate with her and they argued a good while. I thought "Yes! He's finally standing his ground on something and might show what he could do..... Maybe even a mutiny!" ~ I figured if there was it'd get sorted later on and everybody would be better for it.

But then he folded and backed her position like he always did.

 

[Anwar]

The problem with Chakotay was that they never put much thought into his character and they hired a bad actor to play him on top of that.

He really wasn't all that different from Janeway and brought little to the table in the first place aside from his Native American nonsense.

Beltran made it worse by giving such a blank performance right from day one. Seriously, that scene where Seska is revealed as a spy? Mulgrew and Hackett give it their all and he just stands there giving his blank stare look.

Picardo got more stuff written for him because he actually put effort into his work, Beltran blew every chance they gave him.

It's the same reason Harry was next-to-nothing, the writers knew Wang would just mess it up.

 

[Hypaspist]

NuBSG ran out of steam after two seasons, fell apart in the 3rd season and ended with a literal deus ex machina in S4.

The Lost Ship thing just isn't sustainable.

Worst thing was, they had perfectly good series plots in "The Void" and "Scorpion" but the critical panning they got in those stories turned them off doing anything with those concepts.

I think it is sustainable as long as you have an end state desired in mind. Honestly BSG's 3rd season was probably some of the best science fiction I've ever seen on any kind of screen. The problem was they had no idea how to end it, and speaking of Deus Ex, Scorpion ended the same way (to my disappointment). A lot of BSG's problems have to do with the overall story, not the execution...and the story is dead indeed. I tried watching Caprica and man was that ever bad. About being lost though, they just ignored some things that you can't ignore, and wasted opportunities elsewhere; Oh hey a message from the Federation about a ship lost in Romulan space? That's a serious deal - let's get psychopath unfunnyman Andy Dick to be quirky with the Doctor!

A lot of people will complain that the Borg were made too weak by Voyager, but I don't agree: Picard said it best when he called them a "kick in our complacency," with Wolf 359 being something of a turning point for all of Starfleet. Nothing could have shocked them as much or forced them to kick things into high gear like that, so I don't think it was an appropriate tool to make them unbeatable.

Enterprise's terribleness is nothing like the first two seasons of the other shows. Even TNG has some great moments in its otherwise terrible first season, and some of those bad episodes are great simply for camp value. What's more is that they knew when and how to do a comedy episode, but the ridiculous ideas bounced off of the more serious and fleshed out main cast. The whole cast of Enterprise has no character. There is no reason to watch any of its seasons because they are all terrible for every reason imaginable.

 

[dub]

The thing about the first two seasons of each show (can't remember if I posted it already in this thread) was that they were usually designed in a way that focused more on the character development/background and setting the scene/environment. This is how I saw them and is also why each show didn't have much punch until season 3 of each when they move forward into the larger general plot of what each crew would be focusing on.

Yeah, the writers and producers also had to figure out which characters had the most chemistry together, the strengths/weaknesses of the actors, the strengths of the sets, what sort of plots work well in the setting and with the characters, etc. There's a lot of trial and error involved. That's unfortunately something that has to play out in front of audiences as well. I don't think any Trek spin-off was immune to that.

To me, in the case of nuBSG (since that's been mentioned several times in this thread), everything seemed to work straight away even with the large cast they had. That was like lightning in a bottle.

 

[Praxius]

Yeah I do have to say Battlestar Gallactica was an amazing show in pretty much every aspect.... And I only got to watch it after it was all wrapped up because I had no interest before that.

Baltar is my Hero in that show.

 

[fireproof78]

NuBSG ran out of steam after two seasons, fell apart in the 3rd season and ended with a literal deus ex machina in S4.

The Lost Ship thing just isn't sustainable.

Worst thing was, they had perfectly good series plots in "The Void" and "Scorpion" but the critical panning they got in those stories turned them off doing anything with those concepts.

I think it is sustainable as long as you have an end state desired in mind. Honestly BSG's 3rd season was probably some of the best science fiction I've ever seen on any kind of screen. The problem was they had no idea how to end it, and speaking of Deus Ex, Scorpion ended the same way (to my disappointment). A lot of BSG's problems have to do with the overall story, not the execution...and the story is dead indeed. I tried watching Caprica and man was that ever bad. About being lost though, they just ignored some things that you can't ignore, and wasted opportunities elsewhere; Oh hey a message from the Federation about a ship lost in Romulan space? That's a serious deal - let's get psychopath unfunnyman Andy Dick to be quirky with the Doctor!

A lot of people will complain that the Borg were made too weak by Voyager, but I don't agree: Picard said it best when he called them a "kick in our complacency," with Wolf 359 being something of a turning point for all of Starfleet. Nothing could have shocked them as much or forced them to kick things into high gear like that, so I don't think it was an appropriate tool to make them unbeatable.

Enterprise's terribleness is nothing like the first two seasons of the other shows. Even TNG has some great moments in its otherwise terrible first season, and some of those bad episodes are great simply for camp value. What's more is that they knew when and how to do a comedy episode, but the ridiculous ideas bounced off of the more serious and fleshed out main cast. The whole cast of Enterprise has no character. There is no reason to watch any of its seasons because they are all terrible for every reason imaginable.

Agreed. The idea that the "Lost Ship" motif can't work is one I find odd. Obviously, you don't stay lost-like you said, you need an end game plan, and VOY never felt like it had an end game plan, nor did the characters ever feel like they cared about getting home, except for a few select episodes. The lack of character chemistry or even them caring made it hard for me to care. I may be annoyed at the lack of working out their premise in a fulfilling way, but but lack of characters makes it difficult for me to care.

And, I may complain about the Borg, and some of the silliness that occurred with them, but they at least were an interesting villain. Definitely agree that losing the Kazon was a good idea.

 

[Anwar]

I think it is sustainable as long as you have an end state desired in mind.

And with a premise like that, your end state better be in 2-3 seasons. Because any more and you're stretching a thin plot REALLY thin.

Honestly BSG's 3rd season was probably some of the best science fiction I've ever seen on any kind of screen. The problem was they had no idea how to end it, and speaking of Deus Ex, Scorpion ended the same way (to my disappointment).

Probably due to the negative reaction Scorpion Part One got. They decided to just end the storyline then and there once they realized no one liked it.

Yeah I do have to say Battlestar Gallactica was an amazing show in pretty much every aspect.... And I only got to watch it after it was all wrapped up because I had no interest before that.

I never liked it that much. I found the characters too unlikeable and the general feel too repellant.

Plus, they "wussed out" just as much as everyone says VOY did. They used the reset button just as much.

And if NuBSG seemed like it worked right off the bat...it's because most of the show was already written back in the 1970s and was merely co-opted by Moore with some minor rewrites.

Agreed. The idea that the "Lost Ship" motif can't work is one I find odd. Obviously, you don't stay lost-like you said, you need an end game plan, and VOY never felt like it had an end game plan, nor did the characters ever feel like they cared about getting home, except for a few select episodes.

Like I said, every single "Lost Ship" show in the last 40-50 years always either had more to the plot than "Lost Ship" or just totally dropped the "Lost Ship" thing after one season and started up a new plot. And most of them barely made it to 4 seasons.

Why? Because that's all it's good for.

VOY's endgame was always going to be "Random thing gets us home" because they didn't HAVE a plot beyond that.

They had some good series plots: Build up a Delta Federation to fight the 8472 aliens.

But when they tested the waters (The Void, Scorpion) they just got panned. So that ruined that.

 

[Hypaspist]

Yeah I do have to say Battlestar Gallactica was an amazing show in pretty much every aspect.... And I only got to watch it after it was all wrapped up because I had no interest before that.

I never liked it that much. I found the characters too unlikeable and the general feel too repellant.

Plus, they "wussed out" just as much as everyone says VOY did. They used the reset button just as much.

And if NuBSG seemed like it worked right off the bat...it's because most of the show was already written back in the 1970s and was merely co-opted by Moore with some minor rewrites.

If you don't like BSG that's your opinion and I can respect that. Don't tell me that its good aspects were from the 70's show. That is absolute garbage of a show in every way. It did have a few creative ideas - the Egyptian imagery and pharaoh hat helmets, but at the end of the day it had a really weak story and the most flat of all characters. The only thing interesting was that creepy looking skinny robot they got to replace Baltar.

I don't see how you can say BSG was in reset mode though. Permanent things happened. Yeah it had bad episodes and story arcs that went nowhere, but it had a lot of things that affected the crew and ships permanently.
Now it's not that I think Voyager would have been better if they had worse technology or permanent battle damage - I think Trek in general has a major failing in this area. It's one of the reasons I don't understand how people hate Red Matter - really you could make a doomsday weapon out of all kinds of things if you honestly believe a lot of the technobabble.

It would be better if the ground rules were a little bit better established and the writers fully understood them before they started. The 'rules' of Trek too often emphasize things that either don't really matter to most stories (like the nature of humanity in the future) or things that are completely bogus fantasy (like there being no monetary economy in the future). Instead they need to establish where the gravity plane is located on the ship, how do they use counter-gravity lifting devices, when do they put on environmental suits, and so on.

So I guess the problems I have with Voyager are really about Trek conventions that have just gotten out of hand because the writers no longer understand why they got to be that way. I honestly do not understand Neelix or Janeway hate - and I'm not immune to hating characters I find annoying, I just think it's exaggerated for a reason I'm missing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sometimes the issue is not grey. It's black and white.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XutJcO977ZU[/yt]

 

[Anwar]

If you don't like BSG that's your opinion and I can respect that. Don't tell me that its good aspects were from the 70's show.

The idea of Cylons pretending to be humans came from the old show, as did the whole idea of the series (Lost Humans finding a new home). Without those things, there would be no NuBSG.

I don't see how you can say BSG was in reset mode though. Permanent things happened.

No matter what, Roslin was never going to die from her cancer before the end, she'd always end up back as the President, Adam would always end up back in charge of the fleet military, if a new Battlestar showed up it would be destroyed, if they run out of booze they'd find a new source easily, etc.

The characters didn't change much either. Roslin was always in and out of the bat*** crazy zone for 4 years, Adama was still a staunch military man alienated from his son, Starbuck was always traumatized from one thing or another, Tigh was always a broken drunk, Apollo never stopped being a self-righteous prick, etc.

Only difference is that they took their sweet time resetting things with lots of padding.

 

[MacLeod]

One thing I noticed in VOY, is that they never really sold me on the characters realising they might never seem home again.

 

[Praxius]

Anwar, your arguments about what made BSG good were the things from the original show is a bit odd.

With that reasoning, we can say the same thing to every Star Trek Series and Movie after TOS.

Just because the very first show sets the bar and lays the ground work, that shouldn't discredit anything that comes after it simply because they use similar things in order to still relate.