8X04 "Listen" Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!

[Timewalker]

Don't Blink

Don't Breath

Listen!

What next Moffat? Don't Speak?

Don't Walk. The Doctor gets arrested for jaywalking and Clara has to save him from being executed.

Oh man... I really enjoyed this episode until we took a side-track into "oh Miss Clara, you are the most awesome companion EVAH!, you saved ever Doctor ever, you inspired the 11th Doctor at a crucial moment to Save Gallifrey and now you did the same to the Doctor as a child - is there no moment in his history that Clara isn't behind?"

Agreed. It's beyond ridiculous how it she was retconned into those other stories, and she is reaching Ace-levels of annoyance for me. I don't give a damn about the ongoing daily angst of the Companions' lives. This show is "Doctor Who," not "General TARDIS."

Something else - is the implication the Doctor is an Orphan? Oh and did he do a quick Hartnell impression in there?

You could I guess read it in multiple ways, as a reference to the New Adventures Loom ideas, or just as the Doctor and the other boys having been taken from their parents (as per The Sound of Drums) to a home for assessment as to their future roles in Gallifreyan society...

And what about the girls? Romana went to the Academy, Rodan (from The Invasion of Time) was a Time Lady, so was the Rani, plus the various female members of the High Council.

Still seems odd that Gallifrey has barns and hey bales though.

Yep. In The Invasion of Time, the Gallifreyans who lived outside the Capitol were considered to be outsiders, barely-civilized (by the snooty standards of those in the Panopticon) rebels who were organized into a tribe, and lived in what was considered a wasteland. Leela and Rodan spent time with them; Leela had no trouble fitting in at all ("I can survive anywhere"), while none of them had much confidence in Rodan, who was clueless as to how to survive outside the city. There were no farms in the wasteland.

Still seems odd that Gallifrey has barns and hey bales though.

I've long suspected that Gallifrey is a colony of Earth time travelers, and Gallifrians are just evolved Humans. It would explain why the Doctor is so infatuated with Earth (even if he doesn't actually realize it).

Sure, we know Omega and Rassilon were the founding fathers of Time Lord society, but the Human connection could be far more ancient than that.

I mean, other than Time Lords and Daleks, is there any race other than Humans who are avid time travelers? Heck, we learned tonight that Humans were the last species in the universe thanks to time travel, so why not be one of the first, too?

Classic Who had other time traveling species. And why would humans evolve to have two hearts?

[BTW, mighty convenient that telepathic interface. Pretty much any Companion can fly the TARDIS now, given a couple minutes instruction!

Those circuits have been around for years, but that didn't help Tegan any when she tried piloting the TARDIS.

In fairness to Tegan, she didn't have much time to learn. The Doctor was in crisis from his regeneration, and Adric, under the Master's control, had locked the TARDIS' course so it was heading for the Big Bang. Tegan had the smarts to find the equivalent of a quick instruction sheet that enabled her to get them to Castrovalva mostly in one piece.

So guess Moffat's Grand Plan for turning the series into "The Adventures Of Clara Featuring Some Old Bloke" is complete.

Hooray?

It wasn't that bad. I wasn't wild about the story for other reasons, but the scene with the young Doctor and Clara wasn't set up to be the all important reason that the Doctor does what he does. In fact, he was probably asleep and Clara is just a forgotten dream. Parents will often talk to their children as they fall asleep and it's generally forgotten.

No big deal.

Mr Awe

Except he did remember - word for word, over 2000 years later.

A bit of a boring, nothing episode, with the monsters lacking the agency of the silence of the angels, the return of the impossible girl (which is a shame after the decent characterization in the last two episodes) and a bit of decent witty dialogue.

Pretty much sums up my views.

Me too. A few interesting moments, good to see John Hurt again, and would certainly be creepy for kids, but just didn't reach me.

Point to ponder the barn from TDOTD was supposed to be a long, long way from anywhere. How did the kid get there, and how did the adults know about it?

Point to ponder 2: as someone else said, how could Clara visit a Gallifrey not only timelocked but in a different universe? One not normally accessible?

I assumed that at some point during the Doctor's lifespan, the barn would have degenerated into the shell we saw in the anniversary special, and the farm itself long gone due to drought and desertification.

I have trouble with the matter of the Doctor's age when he was supposedly not a Time Lord. In The Ribos Operation, Romana - fresh out of the Academy - states that she's "nearly 140." So if Gallifreyan children start the Academy at age 8, that's a hell of a long time to be in school! Later, in Shada, Romana II refers to something she read "when I was a Time Tot." The word "tot" isn't used in North America, so how old is a kid when they're considered a "tot"? Romana was obviously a child version of a Time Lady when she was really young.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

Slightly amused myself after remembering that listen is an anagram of silent. Other than that, the only question that nags at the back of my mind was what was capable of setting off the Cloister Bell in the TARDIS at that exact moment?

 

[Mage]

Great stuff, I love how it actually didn't resolve the entire 'monster' question, and left it open to our own interpretation. I don't everything resolved in every episode ever.

Capaldi was on fire here, the first episode he really felt like The Doctor to me. If they keep this up, I'm all for it.

 

[tomalak301]

Finally this brings me to Capaldi, probably the first episode where I've really felt like he was The Doctor, long may this continue.

Agree 100%. This was the first episode in which I liked this Doctor.

I'll write more about the episode tomorrow, but I loved Capaldi in this one. Some if his quotes like "humanity, you complain about everything" were funny.

 

[davejames]

Point to ponder the barn from TDOTD was supposed to be a long, long way from anywhere. How did the kid get there, and how did the adults know about it?

The barn we saw in the 50th may very well have been a representation or recreation somehow of the barn from his childhood. Or maybe at some point in the past the Doctor even used the TARDIS to transport the whole thing to this desert, to keep it as a little souvenir of his home.

 

[Roshi]

Fantastic! Allons-y! Geronimo! Attack Eyebrows!

 

[Mage]

And as for being able to visit Gallifrey....Who says it was? For all we know they had a summer home on a different planet?

Joking aside, perhaps Clara's connection with the Doctor's timestream somehow made the TARDIS capable on locking on to the location. Remember, the Doctor isn't the most qualified to ever fly a TARDIS. River was appereantly capalbe of handling her a lot better. So perhaps it was a matter of how, but who?

 

[Timewalker]

Or maybe Gallifrey's climate may have changed.

The one thing I absolutely loathe, though, is how the Doctor is always making mean digs at Clara's physical features, outright calling her old, fat, and ugly.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Or maybe Gallifrey's climate may have changed.

The one thing I absolutely loathe, though, is how the Doctor is always making mean digs at Clara's physical features, outright calling her old, fat, and ugly.

I think they get away with it because she is so very obviously, by most people's standards, none of the three.

I take your point, I suppose even good-looking people can lack confidence and be hurt by digs about their looks. But I think the joke is that the remarks are coming from a middle-aged austere-looking man to a beautiful young woman and we're laughing at him, not her.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

Clara might not have gone to the Time-locked Gallifrey; she might have gone to the secret "Gallifrey is out there, somewhere" location. I gasped out loud when I realized that Clara had crossed into the Doctor's childhood -- I had been wondering why one of the Pink's family members would be sleeping in a barn.

My only let-down was that there was no definitive answer on what the monster was or wasn't. This ambiguity can work at times, but when they show us something so solid and then try to imply that maybe it was nothing -- well, I have a hard time buying that. Never learning what the "Midnight" monster was or what it wanted was still satisfying because at least we knew that it <i>was</i> something, and that it was capable of some freaky shit.

I think I would have liked the ending better if it turns out in a realm devoid of fear, the Hidelings were terrified, because a world without fear to them is like a world without light to us. So the Doctor (or Clara) could tell them that there's nothing for them to be afraid of anymore, and that once they feel safe enough they won't need to hide anymore -- and maybe they ought to feel bad for scaring the beejezeuzus out of everyone this whole time. Fear learning not to fear, basically. (After all, why does one hide? It's a tactical advantage, sure, but if you had a better tactic you wouldn't need to hide.)

And wow, a lot of cynicism in this thread. I think some of you need to ask yourself the question posed in last weeks episode: "When did you stop believing?"

 

[Brent]

About Barns and Haystacks on Gallifrey. Gallifrey has always been shown, even in the classic series, to be a fractured society of the Timelords who live in the main city bubble, all protected and sophisticated, and then other Gallifreyan's who live outside the city in the desert of the planet. There have been some episodes in classic Who that show these outside areas of Gallifrey away from the city, and everyone kinda looks poor and backward. The planet is bigger than Earth, and there is a lot of desert/wasteland space, and a lot of people do live on the fringe out there trying to survive, those that aren't Timelords or of any importance to the cities. So yes, it does make sense, there is definitely a class division in play.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Loved the episode, until Clara took the TARDIS to the Gallifreyan neihbor planet, or moon (or so I presume?) to retroactively create that fear for the Doctor and pointlessly pander to the 50th anniversary special like a good fanwank script starring Clara would.

Seriously, what was the point of the detour? Did Moffat have no idea how to cap his script and found himself in a corner? Or was he, as other fellow posters have pointed out, really bent on making his mark with the super companion Clara that has had, as of now, the MOST impact in the Doctor's life? Both seem realistic to me.

Regardless, this was the first episode I could say "this is a Twelfth Doctor story", where Capaldi's Doctor really owned the scene. The previous two stories, while definitely Capaldi in nature, you could still see some of the other Doctors being in those situations - the Seventh in the Sherwood story, the Ninth in Into Dalek, etc. This felt like the first trademark Twelfth Doctor story. At least, thats how I felt.

Overall, good story, until that silly, ridiculous, annoying ending. Too bad - could've been a classic.

 

[Orac Zen]

A bit of a mess in parts, and I'm pretty much over Super!Clara and her (seeming) link to every major event in the Doctor's life.

But this was the also the best episode of the season so far and the first one I've found even remotely interesting. Nicely creepy in a way the show hasn't been in a while, Capaldi is getting into the role and (my remark above aside) Clara is finally becoming likeable.

Good stuff. About...time, too. More, please.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Loved the episode, until Clara took the TARDIS to the Gallifreyan neihbor planet, or moon (or so I presume?)

Good point, that the barn might not have been on Gallifrey itself. It's been asked: "why wasn't the sky orange" in TDOTD?

 

[YellowSubmarine]

A bit of a mess in parts, and I'm pretty much over Super!Clara and her (seeming) link to every major event in the Doctor's life.

It was hinted from the start and established in The Time of the Doctor that Clara has been to every part of his timeline and has played an uber-major role everywhere, so a visit to the Doctor's childhood that was mostly a learning experience for her doesn't add much to that. Sure, a little event like that can turn your life around, but you usually don't give that much credit to people you bumped on the street, let alone calling these major life-changing events. Clara there was equivalent to the unruly kid hiding under the bedspread of Pink's bed – a kid that, I might add, also managed to scare the hell out of our bad Time Lord.

But compared to her other interferences, this is random noise, really. And too much? On the contrary, for so much interference on paper, we haven't seen enough of it on screen.

Clara might not have gone to the Time-locked Gallifrey; she might have gone to the secret "Gallifrey is out there, somewhere" location.

Or it has to do something with the idiot who turned the safeties off? The Doctor already went twice to the same (?) barn during The Day of the Doctor, even though according to his own words it was supposed to be time locked. Clara, strangely enough, still played some role in it.

I wonder though, at the end there, when the Doctor made that face... Did he actually see where she went to, and realize whose hand it was on that day? It must be hell of a creepy feeling. Not only do you get a mind-boggling answer to your worst nightmare, but you realize your TARDIS was home – just in the middle of your journey looking to find home. I think his face did portray that.

I've long suspected that Gallifrey is a colony of Earth time travelers, and Gallifrians are just evolved Humans.

There was some implication that the Doctor might be Pink's descendant or an ancestor, but it probably doesn't mean anything.

On the other hand, did the episode all but confirm that not all inhabitants of Gallifrey are time lords, and that you aren't born one – in fact the Doctor might have not become one? Or was that "he'll never become a man" figure of speech?

(And for a moment I thought the time lord would be the Master.)

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I thought it was amazing, as scary as Doctor Who can afford to be, as tense as last week's episode was funny. All the actors were very convincing - Danny Pink is already becoming a favorite. Clara was behaving like a 27 year-old, which is refreshing - grown-up women is not something we have seen that often in Doctor Who since Barbara.

And is it me or did Moffat manage to find a completely new way to start a Doctor Who story? Have we ever seen an episode that starts with the Doctor trying to test a hypothesis?

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Brilliant. Best episode in ages. I loved the Doctor coming up with a crackpot theory, and obsessing about it to the point that it becomes maniifest, not only for himself, but everyone else too.

 

[Lonemagpie]

So... Hm, mixed bag. Mostly fantastic, I have to say.

The Great- very creepy; good knockoff of the climax of Whistle And I'll Come to you; I liked that there essentially wasn't actually a monster in it; loved that it's just the Doctor trying to test a theory he's had; nice use of Moffat's trademark "pick something obvious and everyday and make it scary for the kids"; good lines; Capaldi was great; the Clara/Danny stuff worked well in context with the rest of the season so far (and better than I expected from the script); I still like Danny; there's clearly a solid character arc running here, and it's working well.

The irrelevant, but thoughts I had anyway- half expected to see Vashta Nerada or Silents. Don't mind at all that we didn't. Clara on and under beds works for me. As does Clara admiring her own time-shifted arse.

The dodgy issues- If there's nothing outside the spaceship at the end of the universe except void and darkness then how the fuck come there's a big-ass desert planet and setting red giant star out of the window? Also the makeup on Oliver was a bit iffy, and, let's be honest, Moffat's trademark is veering close to drifting into being his cliche. But it still works, so, fuck it. Then there's fact that Clara has inadvertently created her by perfect boyfriend by messing with his timeline...

The fuck off- Yeah, that bit at the end where Clara is responsible for the Doctor being the Doctor. Again, only further back. It's a insult to all the other creators, to say "no, my girl is the most important character ever, and the entire history of the show is down to her, and not in fact to the main character." Repeatedly. That said, it's actually done pretty well, and if viewed as totally standalone for new viewers it works in the context of the story. If Nu Who was a total reboot (like JJ Abrams's Star Trek) it'd work perfectly fine. But in the context of a long-running show, it smacks of arrogant self-importance. And, between those two extremes, I'm not sure whether to hate it or admire how it can work. Like the Blitzkrieg, it's probably both...

The get-out clause- How did she get to time-locked, out of the universe, Gallifrey anyway? This could be a niggle, but it strikes me that there's another interpretation (unless the soldier Dan toy reappears among the Doctor's belongings somewhere) : Clara's fingers were plugged into the fleshlights - er, I mean TARDIS's telepathic circuits, right? What if the TARDIS went not to ancient Gallifrey, but the Doctor's mind/subconscious memory?

This also makes me wonder if Missy is therefore Clara's subconscious, become part of the TARDIS... Clara started as a nanny, after all, and Missy is an evil Mary Poppins... (and, again, created the perfect boyfriend by messing with his timeline, at least conceptually or in their perceptions. I'm rambling, I know...)

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Correct me if I'm wrong - because I probably am - but I was under the impression that it was the Time War that was time-locked, not the entire history of Gallifrey.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Correct me if I'm wrong - because I probably am - but I was under the impression that it was the Time War that was time-locked, not the entire history of Gallifrey.

Don't care, TBH - it gives me an out from Clara being unnecessarily responsible for the whole fucking history of the show.