No disrespect intended, but I'll believe it when someone in the decision-making sphere of Netflix says they are interested in making Star Trek.
DS9 on blu ray?
- Thread starter borgboy
- Start date
No disrespect intended, but I'll believe it when someone in the decision-making sphere of Netflix says they are interested in making Star Trek.
That's a good example of why upscaling is a bad idea. That image was tweaked within an inch of its life. It got "repainted", had the lights added in anew, and in the end lost detail because no one working on it noticed. (Where is the "X" shape inside the bay?)Some SD material can be effectivly upscaled, for example by unblurring the edges of the upscaled picture.
My own opinion: It's definitely not an SD upscale. There's detail there that's simply not possible to pull out of the old 1" analog videotape master. Just look at the DVD image on the left. What it looks like to me is a single frame (there's no real discernible movement) from just the beauty light pass of the model (probably all they could find), which was then heavily DNRd. An artist at HTV recreated what they thought the lighting pass should look like and got it really wrong with the bay interior.
But the "finished" version has missing details that should not have been obliterated by DNR (eg: the second "M" shape on the lower section is completely, cleanly gone), and some of the angles/lines are off, more like they've been repainted by hand. It looks less like an HD screengrab and more like someone refurbished it in photoshop.
I dunno, I claim no real knowledge. Maybe it's a bit of both?
Thats why I called it "effective", because you can clearly see that the casual viewer can be easily fooled. If you sharpen the upscaled image, the normal folks just thinks, its HD, just because it has sharp edges.
This is my quick attempt with freeware tools:
Theirs of course looks better, because they have more advanced filters, so the edges are clearer, and also did some overpainting with the lights, but the sharpened upscaled image really has no additional information - its the same like the SD version, but just unblurred and slightly retouched.
This is my quick attempt with freeware tools:
Theirs of course looks better, because they have more advanced filters, so the edges are clearer, and also did some overpainting with the lights, but the sharpened upscaled image really has no additional information - its the same like the SD version, but just unblurred and slightly retouched.
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I'm not often in perfect agreement with BillJ, but yeah, pretty much this.
It is an interesting idea though. Hard to imagine CBS would want to further legitimize a competitor to broadcast by considering it for anything other than shows that have already aired. Of course, I would be all for it!
With TV stations, more and more, going to HD programming, is CBS really willing to sacrifice part of the Trek cannon, a cash cow, by not putting it in HD? Seems like a no-brainer to me. If they don't do it, it will just be lost (Considering that places like Netflix are pushing more and more HD streaming content these days, they might even stop showing HD in a few years)
But there's no television demand for DS9, SD or otherwise. There are tons of networks still showing SD-era reruns and syndication. Doing the TNG treatment isn't going to make all these stations suddenly want to air a 15 year old sci-fi show.
Netflix isn't every going to stop SD streaming. For one, it's a fraction of the bandwith as all the HD streaming, and there's always going to be some demand or older programming.
And it's not that Netflix is "pushing" HD. That's just the standard now.
Netflix isn't every going to stop SD streaming. For one, it's a fraction of the bandwith as all the HD streaming, and there's always going to be some demand or older programming.
And it's not that Netflix is "pushing" HD. That's just the standard now.
Thanks Squiggy, Lord Shit Supreme for shitting on my dreams.
LOL...jk. I can't really argue with any of your logic. Reality is reality. I still hope for some sort of HD treatment at some point. I can see SyFy airing a binge holiday weekend of the major episodes of DS9 in HD. I still love watching that clip of DS9, the Defiant and a runabout rendered in HD that someone made and posted on youtube awhile back. I know some people think the design is ugly, but I think the station itself is a beauty. And the sets are incredible. How awesome it would be to re-watch DS9 in HD. It's a nice dream. Don't pinch me if it ever comes true.
LOL...jk. I can't really argue with any of your logic. Reality is reality. I still hope for some sort of HD treatment at some point. I can see SyFy airing a binge holiday weekend of the major episodes of DS9 in HD. I still love watching that clip of DS9, the Defiant and a runabout rendered in HD that someone made and posted on youtube awhile back. I know some people think the design is ugly, but I think the station itself is a beauty. And the sets are incredible. How awesome it would be to re-watch DS9 in HD. It's a nice dream. Don't pinch me if it ever comes true.
Actually CBS recently declared it's going to make original programming for third-party streaming services like Netflix. They're capable of making more shows than they have room on their own services to distribute them:
http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/10/5...o-internet-tv-shows-for-services-like-netflix
So of all the old guard, CBS is currently most likely to make shows for Netflix, and Les Moonves has previously said how good their relationship is and that Star Trek in particular is a great performer on Netflix:
http://deadline.com/2012/08/netflix-cbs-star-trek-312620/
So while I agree that we need to wait for firmer reports before we make any assumptions, CBS and Netflix partnering for Star Trek is entirely plausible, depending on what restrictions they're under or set for themselves regarding waiting for the movies to run their course.
And yeah, I hope Trekcore publishes that piece on the status of DS9, assuming they have more info than they've released so far. I'm curious whether CBS went so far as auditing the digital effects they need to rebuild and contacting the individual artists to determine what proportion can simply be re-rendered. Maybe they never got to that point, but I would assume that two seasons of solid CGI would be a factor in the number-crunching.
You're right. Didn't notice that missing "M" shape you pointed out. Then I am clearly wrong -- it's unlikely to be based off of a real 35mm element of any kind. It must have been entirely re-painted by an artist, just as you suggested. It's possible Salinga is right then, at least as a starting point for the artist. No automated software tools I'm aware of can preserve and clean up details in quite that way.
Thing is, it's kinda silly. They didn't have to go to such great lengths to paint a new station. All they had to do (much like the TSFS Spacedock in "1001001") was re-scan the Regula 1 VistaVision elements from this shot in TWOK:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0735.jpg
Or, if they're really lazy, just cut it out in Photoshop!
At the same time, the live-action effects are generally simple. You can break them down into three(?) basic groups:
- Simple particle effects and compositing of multiple live-action plates (phasers, replicators, viewscreens, transporters)
- Stuff requiring a CGI model(s) to be built, but little or no animation
- Stuff requiring a CGI model(s) to be built AND complex animation
(2) and (3) are the question - in terms of the live-action plates, those are mostly Changeling morphs, the occasional greenscreen shot of a ship out of the "window" and *maybe* some monitor graphics. Talking about upscaling effects is *mostly* about the space scenes...
Regarding DS9's minimal syndication hindering its chances for an HD restoration, what about The X-Files? I'm not in the US, but I've been under the impression it hasn't been syndicated on US TV in the last 5 years or so. Yet Fox proceeded to rebuild it in HD, and now it's back in syndication on El Rey in HD.
Correct me if I'm wrong about its absence, as it's hard to track down that kind of information. But if it has indeed been largely absent, syndication isn't necessarily a deciding factor against DS9. X-Files may prove that HD makes a show appealing to syndicators again after lying fallow for a while.
Of course, The X-Files was a far bigger success than DS9 while it was on the air, but it hasn't maintained that in its afterlife. I'd bet it's been on TV in the last decade less than TNG. X-Files has now become more of a cult show - much like DS9 - that some mainstream viewers remember fondly as being a product of its time.
Another interesting comparison would be the number of viewer ratings X-Files has on Netflix compared to DS9. That was cited earlier in this thread, I believe, as a gauge for how watched the various Trek shows are. Again, not in the US, so I can't find that out.
Correct me if I'm wrong about its absence, as it's hard to track down that kind of information. But if it has indeed been largely absent, syndication isn't necessarily a deciding factor against DS9. X-Files may prove that HD makes a show appealing to syndicators again after lying fallow for a while.
Of course, The X-Files was a far bigger success than DS9 while it was on the air, but it hasn't maintained that in its afterlife. I'd bet it's been on TV in the last decade less than TNG. X-Files has now become more of a cult show - much like DS9 - that some mainstream viewers remember fondly as being a product of its time.
Another interesting comparison would be the number of viewer ratings X-Files has on Netflix compared to DS9. That was cited earlier in this thread, I believe, as a gauge for how watched the various Trek shows are. Again, not in the US, so I can't find that out.
They just rescanned the live-action and are up-rezzing the effects from 480p. The cheaper option. Either I want DS9 done right (given the TNG treatment) or not at all.
The early episodes, yes, such as the second one, "Deep Throat":
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59068/picture:0
The shot is cropped at the top and bottom but not expanded out at the sides like the strictly live-action shots are.
But as early as the eighth episode, 'Space", they started recreating the effects in HD. Note the expanded frame at the left and right and the effects that aren't a pixellated mess:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=8770625&postcount=1612
Ditto the ninth ep, "Fallen Angel":
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=8799580&postcount=1868
And as late as early season 3, they're still recreating them in HD:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=9442236&postcount=2900
Who knows what changed. Maybe there was a policy shift after they started work, or maybe they were always going to recreate some effects and not others. For a Blu-ray, they may go back and recreate the upscaled effects as the Friends Blu-ray fixed some of the edge-of-frame gaffes from the HD broadcasts. But Fox is spending the money to upscale some or probably most of the effects, and maybe eventually all.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/59068/picture:0
The shot is cropped at the top and bottom but not expanded out at the sides like the strictly live-action shots are.
But as early as the eighth episode, 'Space", they started recreating the effects in HD. Note the expanded frame at the left and right and the effects that aren't a pixellated mess:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=8770625&postcount=1612
Ditto the ninth ep, "Fallen Angel":
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=8799580&postcount=1868
And as late as early season 3, they're still recreating them in HD:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=9442236&postcount=2900
Who knows what changed. Maybe there was a policy shift after they started work, or maybe they were always going to recreate some effects and not others. For a Blu-ray, they may go back and recreate the upscaled effects as the Friends Blu-ray fixed some of the edge-of-frame gaffes from the HD broadcasts. But Fox is spending the money to upscale some or probably most of the effects, and maybe eventually all.
That's not really saying much. With UPN and WB ramping up their operations and Fox being a full ledged network by this time, first run syndication pretty much consisted of DS9, Xena, and Hercules.
That's a fan-friendly narrative that doesn't really add up. Yes, the competition increased steadily over the years, but it was happening during the TNG years as well with no discernible effect on the ratings. In fact, TNG's ratings started out good and went up from there, despite starting out with virtually no competition and later in the series run facing tons of competition. The ratings reduction for all Trek series didn't begin until after TNG went off the air. The steady loss of ratings afterwards -- but not before -- doesn't correlate with the increase in competition.
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