Murder!! or not?

[Makarov]

He's not being killed, he's being separated. He just suffers from false consciousness as a result of the transporter accident. Brain damage if you will. That's what happens when you smush two brains together.

False consciousness? The dude was coherent and asking not to be killed. It was an entirely new, fully functional brain created from both of them. Arguably an entirely new soul.

It's funny how people can write off this guy getting killed just because he was born through a transporter accident, I guess many here would be on the side of the torch wielding mob in Frankenstein

It's important to remember one thing about the episode: Janeway's look of disgust at the very end. The writers definitely wanted the audience to be unsettled by what just happened therefore I'd say it was their intention that the audience be feeling the same way.

 

[Gov Kodos]

He's not being killed, he's being separated. He just suffers from false consciousness as a result of the transporter accident. Brain damage if you will. That's what happens when you smush two brains together.

False consciousness?

Yup, delusional from two sets of wetware running on one brain.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I think Janeway's dictatorial stance was really wrong. If there is one time when she should have consulted with the main staff, (IE, Chak, Paris, Kim, the doctor, b'lana) this should have been IT. Kes wasn't part of it and yet she's the only one who got a voice in it.

I think there is cause for a court martial here when she gets back on Earth. When you kill someone, you have to be accountable.

 

[T'Girl]

Oh, if the crew agreed, then that's okay.

Legally, I believe that's called a "jury of your peers."

I guess many here would be on the side of the torch wielding mob in Frankenstein

Frankenstein threw a little girl into a lake where she drown, later it strangled Victor's fiancée. I'd be at the front of the "torch wielding mob."

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

If this had been a TNG episode, the crew would have carefully weighed the ethics and morality of separating Tuvok and Neelix and decided letting Tuvix live was the right and morally praiseworthy decision. Then Tuvix would make the decision himself to sacrifice his life anyway.

 

[bbjeg]

^Yeah, Picard would probably make Tuvix go on a guilt trip.

I guess many here would be on the side of the torch wielding mob in Frankenstein

I think a better analogy would be TOS' "The Enemy Within" where you would probably want to keep the two Kirks separate.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If this had been a TNG episode, the crew would have carefully weighed the ethics and morality of separating Tuvok and Neelix and decided letting Tuvix live was the right and morally praiseworthy decision. Then Tuvix would make the decision himself to sacrifice his life anyway.

That last bit was what SHOULD have happened.

 

[JeffinOakland]

I think Janeway's dictatorial stance was really wrong. If there is one time when she should have consulted with the main staff, (IE, Chak, Paris, Kim, the doctor, b'lana) this should have been IT. Kes wasn't part of it and yet she's the only one who got a voice in it.

I think there is cause for a court martial here when she gets back on Earth. When you kill someone, you have to be accountable.

Exactly, that's why I suggested it should have been a two episode story arc: to address all the moral and philosophical issues.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Did Janeway cause a time loop again?

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

^Yeah, Picard would probably make Tuvix go on a guilt trip.

I guess many here would be on the side of the torch wielding mob in Frankenstein

I think a better analogy would be TOS' "The Enemy Within" where you would probably want to keep the two Kirks separate.

The difference is that the Kirks were practically dying separately, at least one of them was literally so.

 

[Drone]

1. Did Janeway murder Tuvix?
2. Should it have been her decision without his having a chance to defend himself in a court of some sort? Should she have at least discussed the matter with others, including the Dr. and Kes & Chakotay?
3. Why didn't anyone try to stop her if they thought it was murder? Did they think it was murder? Did the Dr. think it was murder?
4. Why did Tuvix go so quietly?
5. Why didn't anyone hold it against Janeway or ever mention it again?
6. Should it have been a two story arc to address questions 2-5?

1. No. Tuvix was a recombinant formulation of the essence that was still Tuvok and Neelix. They still existed and there was no justification to allow the usurper to continue to deny them being manifested again. If Janeway's act was actually murder, than two lifeless clumps of matter would have materialized.


2. Yes. To quote Chokotay, "She's the captain". If she felt it would help her decison making process she could have sounded others out, but ultimately Voyager's not a democracy (as if that really needs to be stated!!!).


3. Speculative, see next. No. While it was probably difficult for many to know how to emotionally respond at that moment, they all likely reached the same conclusion as Janeway, given the inescapable reality of the situation. Sort of. Prima facie,the Doc did find that the act would violate the ethics of his profession that his programming swore him to uphold. This begs the question as to why he pursued developing a solution at all, or at least informing Janeway when he came up with this one, when he had to realize what the consequences would be. Dumbass. On the other hand, one can argue that he didn't define it as murder, at least upon greater reflection, as he didn't throw it up to her at the end of Renaissance Man.


4. He knew there was no way out. Having Tuvok's memories, he certainly was aware of Janeway's steadfastness after making a determination, certainly of this magnitude. Someone with a more malign view of the character might suggest that Tuvix resigned himself to take the high road at the end so as to make even more acute the uneasiness felt by those witnessing his reorientation.


5. See part 2 of question 2.


6. Probably not. Another episode would have allowed the mostly positive identification the crew (and audience) felt for Tuvix to be furthered, making the inevitable denouement even more emotionally fraught. While greater examination of questions of morality and ethics in the show would not have been unwelcome IMO, in this instance another full act would not have changed the fundamental nature of the case. As I said recently in another thread though, his being cloned to live on would have been more than acceptable. He could have contributed notably to the furtherance of Voyager's journey, anecdotally at least, somewhere on the lower decks. Also, on those couple of occasions the writers might have dealt him back in, we would have had an opportunity to see the interesting dynamic of his interacting with his relations.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

He's not being killed, he's being separated. He just suffers from false consciousness as a result of the transporter accident. Brain damage if you will. That's what happens when you smush two brains together.

False consciousness? The dude was coherent and asking not to be killed. It was an entirely new, fully functional brain created from both of them.

False Consciousness: any belief or view that prevents a person from being able to understand the true nature of a situation.

 

[JeffinOakland]

1. Did Janeway murder Tuvix?
2. Should it have been her decision without his having a chance to defend himself in a court of some sort? Should she have at least discussed the matter with others, including the Dr. and Kes & Chakotay?
3. Why didn't anyone try to stop her if they thought it was murder? Did they think it was murder? Did the Dr. think it was murder?
4. Why did Tuvix go so quietly?
5. Why didn't anyone hold it against Janeway or ever mention it again?
6. Should it have been a two story arc to address questions 2-5?

1. No. Tuvix was a recombinant formulation of the essence that was still Tuvok and Neelix. They still existed and there was no justification to allow the usurper to continue to deny them being manifested again. If Janeway's act was actually murder, than two lifeless clumps of matter would have materialized.


2. Yes. To quote Chokotay, "She's the captain". If she felt it would help her decison making process she could have sounded others out, but ultimately Voyager's not a democracy (as if that really needs to be stated!!!).


3. Speculative, see next. No. While it was probably difficult for many to know how to emotionally respond at that moment, they all likely reached the same conclusion as Janeway, given the inescapable reality of the situation. Sort of. Prima facie,the Doc did find that the act would violate the ethics of his profession that his programming swore him to uphold. This begs the question as to why he pursued developing a solution at all, or at least informing Janeway when he came up with this one, when he had to realize what the consequences would be. Dumbass. On the other hand, one can argue that he didn't define it as murder, at least upon greater reflection, as he didn't throw it up to her at the end of Renaissance Man.


4. He knew there was no way out. Having Tuvok's memories, he certainly was aware of Janeway's steadfastness after making a determination, certainly of this magnitude. Someone with a more malign view of the character might suggest that Tuvix resigned himself to take the high road at the end so as to make even more acute the uneasiness felt by those witnessing his reorientation.


5. See part 2 of question 2.


6. Probably not. Another episode would have allowed the mostly positive identification the crew (and audience) felt for Tuvix to be furthered, making the inevitable denouement even more emotionally fraught. While greater examination of questions of morality and ethics in the show would not have been unwelcome IMO, in this instance another full act would not have changed the fundamental nature of the case. As I said recently in another thread though, his being cloned to live on would have been more than acceptable. He could have contributed notably to the furtherance of Voyager's journey, anecdotally at least, somewhere on the lower decks. Also, on those couple of occasions the writers might have dealt him back in, we would have had an opportunity to see the interesting dynamic of his interacting with his relations.

Of course its not a Democracy but only a callous fool arrogantly assumes the role of judge, jury and executioner. She was under no professional obligation to discuss the subject but it can be fairly argued she was under a moral obligation to.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kinda like when Janeway thought she was still in charge in Basics, when Cullah had to backhand her across "his" bridge to amend that thinking?

 

[Drone]

Of course its not a Democracy but only a callous fool arrogantly assumes the role of judge, jury and executioner. She was under no professional obligation to discuss the subject but it can be fairly argued she was under a moral obligation to.

I think it's safe to say she knew the facts of the situation as well as anyone else did. Is she required to seek counsel in this circumstance? Well, I don't believe Starfleet has a protocol that covers it, and they certainly don't have one that regulates the manner and carriage of executions, for those that view the event that way.


If there were a Counselor aboard, I think she would have most likely laid out her thinking thoroughly to gain another qualified, and dispassionate, perspective. The person she relied on as her moral compass could not be consulted, obviously. Was the core of the relationship with Chakotay at this point such that Janeway felt that he would have supplied some other facet or aspect of thinking on the matter that would have materially helped to guide a decision? Maybe.


It seems that she probably didn't think that there was anyone else aboard whose consideration would provide a crystallizing or defining accent to what she had worked through in making a decision, as opposed to merely accumulating background noise that wouldn't prove particularly illuminating or reflective.


Of course, she did get that kind of input from Kes, which while unsolicited, would never have failed to get her rapt attention. The impact that conversation had on the momentum of the proceedings is another question entirely.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Of course its not a Democracy but only a callous fool arrogantly assumes the role of judge, jury and executioner. She was under no professional obligation to discuss the subject but it can be fairly argued she was under a moral obligation to.

So a callous military commander assumes the role of judge, jury and executioner to unilaterally sentence people to death, who also doesn't like it when people question her judgement.

Why am I getting the strangest sense of deja vu?

 

[JeffinOakland]

Of course its not a Democracy but only a callous fool arrogantly assumes the role of judge, jury and executioner. She was under no professional obligation to discuss the subject but it can be fairly argued she was under a moral obligation to.

So a callous military commander assumes the role of judge, jury and executioner to unilaterally sentence people to death, who also doesn't like it when people question her judgement.

Why am I getting the strangest sense of deja vu?

What do you mean?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Of course its not a Democracy but only a callous fool arrogantly assumes the role of judge, jury and executioner. She was under no professional obligation to discuss the subject but it can be fairly argued she was under a moral obligation to.

So a callous military commander assumes the role of judge, jury and executioner to unilaterally sentence people to death, who also doesn't like it when people question her judgement.

Why am I getting the strangest sense of deja vu?

What do you mean?

Something about Edward James Olmos telling someone like that something about getting his men back or something while really badass music plays.

 

[JeffinOakland]

So a callous military commander assumes the role of judge, jury and executioner to unilaterally sentence people to death, who also doesn't like it when people question her judgement.

Why am I getting the strangest sense of deja vu?

What do you mean?

Something about Edward James Olmos telling someone like that something about getting his men back or something while really badass music plays.

With BSG, one of the major subtexts running through the series was that humans are hardly any better than The Enemy and that its arguable that humanity kinda deserved genocide.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And here I thought that you were talking about Kodos the Executioner, a Federation Governor of a small colony who euthanized half his constituents to make sure the dwindling food supply would last long enough for the relief ships to arrive.

He also posts on this board from time to time.