How dare you? This is intolerable!
CaptJimboJones said:
Another of my unpopular opinions - I actually preferred the emotion-chip Data from "Generations" and "First Contact." I was disappointed when they jettisoned that plotline in "Insurrection" and "Nemesis."
"It's Mister Tricorder!" Priceless
IAWTC. Generations Data was adorable. Which brings me to the first of my two jaw-dropping unpopular opinions
1. I regularly found Data to be incredibly irritating. While I loved the character very much at his best, at his worst his role as a mirror to humanity and his inane questions about everyday emotional phenomena got really really wearing.
2. "Sub Rosa" is one of my favourite episodes of Trek. Partly that's for shallow reasons, cause I like to ogle Gates McFadden, but mostly I think it's a great example of Trek doing a Very Special Episode and getting it right.
Lots of Trek episodes that have Important Messages are really trite, but Sub Rosa puts its money where its mouth is. It's a squicky, disturbing, fascinating look at rape, spousal abuse, and the distorting lens of the romance genre. Way deeper than a lot of Trek's VSEs. It's not an easy episode to watch, but I don't think it's supposed to be.
Also, Gates in silk nightgown.
I'll add the unpopular opinion that I liked Data's emotions in Generations. Maybe not so much in First Contact, but I didn't see the point in getting rid of them. It was nice to have Data get closer to being human (even if it was artificially done when the show seemed to imply he would do it naturally anyway).
Data hating a drink was one of my favorite scenes in the movie.
Data hating a drink was one of my favorite scenes in the movie.
TeutonicNights said:
Maybe you should actually watch DS9 before you make such ridiculous claims.
After quoting several plotlines direct from the show, what more do you ask? A picture of me in a uniform?
Too much of the above can be summed up with "I wont defend DS9 because TNG was worse, and therefore DS9s suckiness is OK." Is there any defense to the way DS9 musical chaired its villain of the season? Any defense to its fumble of the Klingons?
And your point about Garek being interesting is true, and also irrelevant. He was an outcast from his own people, just as seemingly EVERY OTHER character on the show was.
But Im sorry, I have to laugh at "we learned about planetary politics."
SCREW PLANETARY POLITICS.
I dont give a rats asteroid about Bajors government or Cardassias history. Bajor at its best characterization was still a big fat hairy "SO WHAT?" I want the super-aliens of the TOS era: The Metrons, etc, aliens who arent just a few years ahead of us but EONS. The galaxy was a lot simpler place in DS9 than it was in TOS, and that was a crime against storytelling.
Angel4576 said:
Take TOS' first season out of the equation, and against the likes of B5 and/or Farscape, Star Trek in general is vastly overrated. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy a lot of it, I did, but it's not as pivotal as many people seem to think it is.
Re DS9's popularity, my observation has been that it's the one Trek series that non-Trekkers actually have any tolerance for.
As for stunting the growth, that's rich. Every other incarnation of Star Trek has utilised the big reset button, how much did that stunt any organic character growth? Sisko for example has a very clear character progression from the Emissary right through to What You Leave Behind, growing and developing all the way. Picard, is essentially exactly the same as he was in Encounter at Farpoint by the time we saw him in All Good Things. As for relationships, fcuk me, characters get married! That blew that whole Trek taboo out of the water. Much better to have Kirk or Riker nailing the female guest star of the week. Guess VD was a thing of the past in the 23rd/24th century. As for the lack of contribution to the Star Trek universe, let's see, in-depth development of the Bajorans, Cardassians, the Dominion, further development of the Klingons and Ferengi, as well as taking the Maquis through to a natural conclusion, and introduced Section31, no, obviously TNG gave us so much more. Seven years, and we got Q, The Borg, and a few Ferengi episodes, and then it was back to having the Romulans and Klingons turning up every now and then.
Inconsistent plotline. Brilliant, considering that outside of DS9, Star Trek rarely had anything stretching over multiple episodes. You get the occasional two-parter and then it's back to wrapping everything up inside 45 minutes. See that's the thing with DS9, it didn't need to wrap everything up nicely at the end of each episode, its nature allowed it to carry stories and arcs over greater durations. So there was a pause in the Dominion arc after The Search? Fcuk me, you mean they didn't go into an all-out war straight away?!Heaven forbid they pause and consider their next move. Or are you suggesting that Sisko was all of a sudden responsible for co-ordinating a strategy against the Dominion? Fcuk Starfleet Command/Intelligence, let Benji do it all.
The Klingons were forgotten after Way of the Warrior? They were? My God, who the fcuk was that masquerading as Klingons across the rest of the series?!
The Dominion war, more specifically the Breen, weren't the Dominion on the back foot when the Breen's sneak attack against Earth took place? The attack caused a pause in the Alliance campaign, which then gave the Dominion the time to go back onto the offensive.
The klingons were NEVER AGAIN portrayed as any threat worth a damn after Way of the Warrior. They put WOrf on trial, attack Jake on a planet? THATS what all the hype was about? THATS the best the writers can come up with? Was that the big ratings stunt that Berman thought would fix the show? If the Klingons were given such a high priority, how come both the two-parters in that season: The Changling infiltration of Earth and the Season ender, both had the FOUNDERS as the real enemy, and not the Klingons?
After Way of the Warrior, what exacly was the klingons 2nd act? What was their reason for being on the show at all that wasnt being (fumbled) by the Dominion?
And my reasons for disliking the introduction of the Dominion have not yet been refuted. The writers present us with a number of Dominion Ultimatums in the 2nd season, and then IGNORE them all in the 3rd.
1) Stay out of Gamma Quad
2) No more commercial traffic thru wormhole.
Was either one of those solved in the 3rd season AT ALL? Let alone in the 3rd Season opener, the whole reason for going to gamma quad with the Defiant in the first place?
This was not a plotline that was "stretched out," it was a plotline that was forgotten. A quickie ratings stunt before returning back the very next week as if nothing had ever happened. Ditto for the very next year with the Klingons: a big ratings stunt which is forgotten the very next week with a series of filler episodes.
And as for the Breen, I said the SUPERWEAPON ARC. They had a weapon which had two-thirds of the alliance helpless, making the Klingons stand alone against THREE enemy starfleets. Given this nail-biting scenaro, what do the Breen do?
Nothing. We never see the weapon used again. Despite Starfleet being helpless for about 4 eps, NOTHING happens on the front lines.
I can see the temptation to see all these dangling plotthreads as "solved over time," but a closer analysis reveals them to be ignored, often until the last possible minute while we given week after week of filler.
Did we really need a Quark comedy ep RIGHT AFTER the introduction of the Dominion? What the hell kind of pacing is that?
See? That's why I said you should actually watch it. In your first post you claimed Dukat was too late to open the wormhole for the Dominion when he was LONG past that! He'd realized he's the freakin Emissary of the pagh-wraiths! The Dominion (and even Cardassia) had become irrelevant to him.
As for the Klingons, you obviously missed "Apocalypse Rising", you missed "Nor the battle to the strong" where they were portrayed as menacing and dangerous even after the brief war. You also seem to have missed "Sons of Mogh", where they secretly tried to mine the Bajoran Star System.
Hm maybe I shouldn't have spoiled that for you, sorry.
There are some points you brought up in your original post that may warrant some complaints, but claims like that the other series didn't have those problems are just bull.
The Dominion WERE the real enemy. You're also crediting both the Klingons and the Federation with having no intelligence whatsoever. Both knew, as confirmed in The Way of the Warrior that an all out war between the Federation and the Klingons would be the best possible outcome for the Dominion, and the worst for the AQ. It had already been established that the Cardassians had fought the Federation to a standstill in their (relatively) recent war, hence when the time came for the Cardassians to join the Dominion, to have the Federation being able to stand up to them on their own would have been completely unrealistic, hence the Klingons were bought in ready to redress the fragile balance between the two factions. This also worked later on with the Breen and Romulans joining their respective sides.
Clearly, the area of space in the GQ where the wormhole was situated wasn't under direct Dominion control, otherwise the first thing they'd have done would have been to establish a permanent military presence to prevent encroachment. The threats made at the back of Season two were largely grandstanding and posturing on the Dominion's part. They made a point of ramming the Odyssey to show the Federation how far they were willing to go. That implies a reluctance, at least initially, to enter into open hostilities if it could be avoided through threat. At this point the Dominion were still gathering intelligence on the AQ. Whilst the Federation did go back into the GQ in the third season, this was primarily with the Defiant, which was cloaked. The Ferengi continued to go through, but they had trade agreements with the Dominion, the threat made wasn't against them, they're not part of the Federation. Other than that, it was the Romulans/Cardassians that made the next big encroachment into the GQ when they tried to assault the Founders' homeworld. This action prompted the change in position and strategy for the Dominion. It was clear that the threat made at the end of season two hadn't worked, hence they adopted a more pro-active approach of going onto the offensive in the AQ itself, prompting the events of The Adversary at the end of the third season. That's all logical strategy on behalf of the Dominion, and as far as the Federation were concerned, they were a lot more hesitant about sending expeditions, either scientific or military into the GQ.
We never see the weapon used again because the Federation were smart enough to NOT put their ships in their way again until they'd figured out how to circumvent the Breen superweapon. What was the point of them using it against the Klingons? They were already impervious to it. Furthermore, it was equally clear at that point that the Dominion had been on the back foot prior to the Breen entering the war. The Breen superweapon certainly gave the Dominion a temporary tactical edge, but they chose to take the tactically sound decisions instead of being rash and naive. This resulted in the Dominion retaking the strategically pivotal Chin'toka system and extending their front lines, allowing them to retake the initiative. At the same time the Klingons employed a strategy of stealth attacks and hit and run. It was made quite clear that whilst the Breen weapons were to be deployed on Dominion ships, that would take time, and taking Chin'toka was an immediate priority for them, hence they needed Breen ships there instead of sending them off elsewhere. The fact that they retook Chin'toka proves that the Breen hardly sat there twiddling their thumbs.
It's more appropriate to say that not everyone was appeased because they were more used to plotlines being wrapped up inside 45 minutes, a game that DS9 rarely played. Some threads were left hanging, ie. you got the impression there was more to the Breen than was explained, but essentially, the major plot points, were played out over time.
Now I have a question for you, did we actually see either of these ultimatums being broken? Yes, the Defiant went through the Wormhole, but it had a cloaking device to stay hidden so it doesn't count.
And WotW wasn't forgotten, we did see the Klingons as a threat for the whole next season. And we saw the aftermath of the episode addressed in The Visitor, The Sword of Kahless, Return to Grace, Sons of Mogh, Nor the Battle to the Strong, and (I think) Looking for Par'Mach in All the Wrong Places.
Well, I figured it came from his previous gig keeping Cheers running. One thing about sitcoms is that you can't change a lot and still have the thing work. What really changed in a sitcom? I can't think of anything.
K
ktanner3
Guest
1st off, I'm not defending anything.I could care less if you hate DS9, I will still like it better no matter what you say which brings me to ....
2nd off, watch the show before you go on another rant. They didn't fumble the Klingons. They made them ten times more interesting than TNG or TOS ever did.So many of your points about the show are so far off the mark that it's incredible.
Sorry, but there's no way you could have watched all seven seasons of DS9 and come away thinking of it as a simple galaxy with nothing complex. ANd I always gave a big so-what to aliens of the week. Who cares about the latest bump on the forehead when they all act alike? And please don't tell me that in a galaxy of multiple empires and political structures that war would never break out between them.Having a galaxy of people who all think alike and act alike with the Enterprise always being the moral authority with no conflict between each other is to me a crime against storytelling.
That's an interesting comparison, because Cheers was considered quite innovative at the time of its original run because it wasn't entirely episodic, and while it didn't necessarily use story arcs as we currently define them, it had a strong element of seriality (Sam's pursuit of Diane leading to a failed relationship which leads to her engaging in another relationship with Frasier, Sam selling and regaining and again partly losing ownership of the bar, etc.).
I'd say that if Berman was consciously using Cheers as a model for his Trek series, they would have been more flexible in structure...
TeutonicNights said:
How dare you? This is intolerable!
I agree with TeutonicNights! I'm a straight woman and heck I think she's very sexy!
Ones that usually get me into stupid fan arguments.
-- Kirk has reached "James Bond Status", meaning they can recast the role, so long as the actor is talented and the writing is true to the character it doesn't matter who plays him.
-- Paramount should ignore the fans as much as possible. We can agree on what we want, and as a rule even we get it we'll tend to complain.
-- Kirk has reached "James Bond Status", meaning they can recast the role, so long as the actor is talented and the writing is true to the character it doesn't matter who plays him.
-- Paramount should ignore the fans as much as possible. We can agree on what we want, and as a rule even we get it we'll tend to complain.
Voyagers "The Thaw" and "The Fight" were amazing episodes
Seven of Nine wasn't a good character for more than a few episodes, and the outfit looked ridiculous, not sexy.
DS9's "The Visitor" was a contrived bore
Ditto for TNG's "The Inner Light"
TOS on the whole was sheer crap
Kirk screaming "Khaaaaan!" was the stupidest and most akward line in movie history
Seven of Nine wasn't a good character for more than a few episodes, and the outfit looked ridiculous, not sexy.
DS9's "The Visitor" was a contrived bore
Ditto for TNG's "The Inner Light"
TOS on the whole was sheer crap
Kirk screaming "Khaaaaan!" was the stupidest and most akward line in movie history
You can't kill something that is already dead
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