There's limited interest in that.
Your opinion on SNWs Gorn
- Thread starter Rahul
- Start date
Then maybe they should change the name of the show to Familiar Old Places if that's the case.
Indeed, perhaps that would be helpful.
There’s very little in the way of canon about the Gorn. SNW can pretty much do what they want with them. Stop trying to put the Gorn inside a narrow canon box.
We know the adult Gorn are intelligent. The young are monsters. Kind of like human kids
We know the adult Gorn are intelligent. The young are monsters. Kind of like human kids
If you defend this by saying the Gorn were a blank slate and that “Arena” was just one appearance, so why does it matter if SNW changes their nature... Think of it this way: What if SNW were to reintroduce the Horta from TOS’s “The Devil in the Dark” but used them as “monsters” in the same way that they’re using the Gorn?
What if SNW were to say, no, actually there are young Horta on a lot of planets and the Pike-era Enterprise runs into planets being terrorized by silicon-carpet aliens that melt people and tunnel through rock?
It would totally undermine the message of “The Devil in the Dark” (that the Horta’s nature and actions in that episode were predicated on a misunderstanding) to make the Horta into “monsters” in the same way Goldsmans’ viewpoint of the Gorn as monsters wrecks the point being made in “Arena.”
What if SNW were to say, no, actually there are young Horta on a lot of planets and the Pike-era Enterprise runs into planets being terrorized by silicon-carpet aliens that melt people and tunnel through rock?
It would totally undermine the message of “The Devil in the Dark” (that the Horta’s nature and actions in that episode were predicated on a misunderstanding) to make the Horta into “monsters” in the same way Goldsmans’ viewpoint of the Gorn as monsters wrecks the point being made in “Arena.”
They're EXTREMRLY derivative of Alien and Predator. Trek deserves better, frankly.
But otherwise they're fine. IDGAF about the changes, SNW is much more a modern reboot than in-continuity prequel.
But otherwise they're fine. IDGAF about the changes, SNW is much more a modern reboot than in-continuity prequel.
Apologies, I misread the cow analogy!
Nope, sorry this just sounds like an easy way out to me in writing something compelling - just make a generic monster for scares and rip-off many other properties that have already done the same thing (and better). It just isn't interesting, and its been done to death. I have no issue with a faceless monster - but if you do that, you have to do it well and do it in a new and exciting way. At the moment, I'm not personally seeing that with the Gorn in SNW.
You say "You're trying to slot the aliens into what you think is an "intelligent" pattern by making them easily understandable." - no I'm not. Not remotely. What I am saying is that I want them to be incomprehensible, but we actually learn more about how they operate and how a society like that even functions. Nothing shown to date has shown that, only started to hint at it - and I want to see more from the hints rather than more Alien rip-off action. If they aren't going that way, and are indeed just going for the general monsterous angle for the Gorn - I want to see something a bit more unique than what we 've seen to date, because frankly it just isn't new, fresh or scary in any way and others have done it much better.
You said "if they don't care for their young or bond with them in a familiar way, or have "humane" values regarding life, you don't see how they can develop intelligence throughout their lifecycles or build a civilization. Why do you think that? Because you've only seen the human model." - again, not remotely. What I am saying is that I want to see how that works, and for the writers to write something creative to show me. At the moment at least, they haven't done that.
I'll forgive the slightly condescending tone on your post - just because I think you've wanted to apply something that wasn't actually evident in my post at all (most likely because you happen to like the SNW Gorn and disagree with me - which is fine.)
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Why?
Trek is derivative. Has been since it's inception. I'm not happy but that's because Alien as a franchise pains me rather than anything Trek deserves.
I just don't see how. Kirk even says he must remind himself this is sn intelligent being, as capable as himself and not just a monster. It fits in fine.
What I like about the SNW Gorn.....
- Sophisticated tactical intelligence...
*the scene of trying to access the ships computer entering incorrect passwords.
*beaming away the survivors when their blocking beacon was destroyed.
- Very aggressive species. Levels above the Klingon in ferociousness. Attack, attack, attack.
- A detail: long fingers, and showing hand precision, which seemed likely above human. I always wondered how races without precise motor capabilities could build anything.
What I don't like...
- the Aliens movie series planting egg thing.
* They can make it better by extending it past "incubation shell" and introduce a concept like "absorbing traits from the host". That may explain the TOS version of Gorn being more human-like (no tail, more upright, etc).
- the Jurassic Park look and feel once they takeover the planet. I think that is more or of an issue of how they decided to shoot the scenes on the planet, and possibly the set budget.
I'm intrigued to see where they take this!
- Sophisticated tactical intelligence...
*the scene of trying to access the ships computer entering incorrect passwords.
*beaming away the survivors when their blocking beacon was destroyed.
- Very aggressive species. Levels above the Klingon in ferociousness. Attack, attack, attack.
- A detail: long fingers, and showing hand precision, which seemed likely above human. I always wondered how races without precise motor capabilities could build anything.
What I don't like...
- the Aliens movie series planting egg thing.
* They can make it better by extending it past "incubation shell" and introduce a concept like "absorbing traits from the host". That may explain the TOS version of Gorn being more human-like (no tail, more upright, etc).
- the Jurassic Park look and feel once they takeover the planet. I think that is more or of an issue of how they decided to shoot the scenes on the planet, and possibly the set budget.
I'm intrigued to see where they take this!
But have the SNW Gorn been viewed as anything but monsters so far?
I'm pretty sure all the Gorn we've already seen in SNW (with the possible exception of the one in the spacesuit) were incubated in humans, or at the very least Federation humanoids.
I like that, they should go with that.
Are you referring to their monsterness based on their brutality?
They do negotiate, and have higher level tactics which isn't monstrous.
Is this assuming all the baby Gorn we see running around are locally incubated vs being brought on a ship?
Regardless, if they do go down the "adopting traits" line, they can easily make it that they won't show until adulthood. My point is they can do a lot with the Gorn, as long as they think it through.
I really hope they did their homework!
To present an ultimatum to an enemy - "Don't cross this line" - requires that you recognize them as capable of and possibly motivated to respond in the way you demand. So, when the Gorn did that they weren't treating us as animals, nor were they behaving like monsters.
Warning someone off indicates an intention to avoid direct confrontation, for any of a number of motives - again, a fairly sophisticated decision.
In these respects, the SNW Gorn have already behaved less savagely in one instance than the TOS Gorn did at Cestus III.
The Gorn were Predator before there was a Predator.
I'm reminded of the attitude the Doctor Who franchise has on such matters. In the 1970s there was Terrance Dicks who said "continuity is only whatever I can remember." Or Russell T Davies, the showrunner who revived the show in 2005 who said in his book The Writer's Tale that if it comes to a choice between serving the story or adhering to continuity, serving the story the choice he makes, and added it's the only choice a real writer should make. The writers of SNW clearly had a good story idea involving the Gorn, with no real reason not to use it besides "continuity."
And besides, Arena was already contradicted anyway on Disco, with Lorca owning a Gorn skeleton and Leland talking about Section 31 operations against "alligators on Cestus III" which has to be a reference to the Gorn.
Many hopes were dashed and hearts broken this day.
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