Year of Hell vs Xindi Saga

[Paul755]

The entire Xindi arc should have been six episodes tops, with no time travel episodes.

The Dominion war completely over by the end of the sixth season, include any aftermath and looking back. Season seven new material.

I don’t think you could have convincingly done the Xindi arc in just 6 episodes. They had to earn the resolution. You had to see them pushed to the limit and see the way they changed.

I liked that they did the war over two seasons because they allowed it to breathe. To tell stories they might not have been able to tell if it had all been squeezed together. Stuff like Nog and his PTSD, Kira finding out her mother was Dukat’s consort, etc...

 

[Saul]

No, TPTB were right to create a new interesting multi-race species.

Like they did with the Suliban? How many of these new and interesting races ever showed up again?

Everything doesn't have to be either the Romulans or the Klingons. Both could have been completely excluded from ENT and imho the show would have been better for it.

Considering that it was a prequel series and the first prequel to Star Trek I think it was a given that these species would show up and were expected to show up.

 

[Tenacity]

Kira finding out her mother was Dukat’s consort, etc...

This episode could have easily taken place after the Dominion war arc. Take me out to the holosuite same thing, Badda bing as well (or left out all together).

Considering that it was a prequel series and the first prequel to Star Trek I think it was a given that these species would show up and were expected to show up.

Okay, but I don't. The Klingons not being encountered during that time peroid would have been perfectly understandable, this happening later as Humanity move further out into the galaxy. There's nothing that the Romulans did during ENT that couldn't have been done by a different new species.

Like they did with the Suliban? How many of these new and interesting races ever showed up again?

Why would they need to show up again? Do a story with a newly create species, it ends. Then you invent another new species, very much different, do a story, one episode or a half dozen, then move on.

Do we really need to have multiple episodes with Phlox's wife, just because we saw her once?

The Suliban weren't a one shot species, we saw them over the course of multiple episodes, then that story line was over. Why would they need to be used to exhaustion?

There's other species out there to explore, do a storyline with them, move on.

 

[Saul]

Do we really need to have multiple episodes with Phlox's wife, just because we saw her once?

If she is a popular character, sure. We had multiple episodes with Quark's Mom and through the familiarity gained with each episode it added an extra layer to future appearances and interactions. I'm not a Ferengi fan but those episodes were fun.

The Suliban weren't a one shot species, we saw them over the course of multiple episodes, then that story line was over. Why would they need to be used to exhaustion?

I'll have to disagree here. I quite liked the Suliban and Silik but clearly they were an aspect of the show the producers thought were not working and ditched in favor of a new direction with the Xindi, they reappeared at the start of season 4 and were hastily written out of the show with their storyline ended in a bland manner that answered nothing about the TCW other than "it's over, we won't trouble you again". They were frankly underused since they were developed as a main villain species for the series.
If we want to talk about species used to exhaustion then yes, definitely Klingons are, but the Suliban or Xindi? I for one wouldn't mind seeing them again. But considering they haven't it tells me i'm in the minority on that point.

Sorry to derail the thread with this post. To get it back on track, in relation to Voyager most aliens in that show make sense to not hang around as the ship leaves the space and systems that they control. The Krenim are perfectly suited to not show up again since they never developed a timeship or possible empire and they are in the delta quadrant. But the Xindi? Those guys are around, they could easily pop up.

 

[MAGolding]

...And with the Year of Hell, have an explanation of the Krenim controling a small sub arm of the galaxy that extends towards the next arm, having it be a 1000 light years long, with voyager unable to "Go Around" because they would have to detour by many 1000's of LY to find another bridge to the next arm. and they wouldn't have enough supplies to make it through the void. instead of Janeway being an Ass and saying screw you we're going through..

Kind of like the xindi arc where they would be attacked occasionally, they would find freinds in subugated species in the sub arm, maybe blow off a warp nacelle, OR, Destroy voyager and have them find another ship to get home on, and upgrade it with feddy tech. Or Really gut the ship, and have them meet up with a rebel group that has acess to a drydock and repair the ship. by that time the ship was Cgi so easy to "upgrade" it.

One thing you have to understand about the galaxy is that stars are pretty much evenly distributed in it. In the central galactic bulge or core stars are packed more densely toward the center and less densely away from the center. Andin the vast spherical halo of the galaxy stars and star clusters are spread out much thinner and get less and less common with distance from the galactic center..

The third major component of the galaxy is the galactic disk, where the average density of stars is lower than in the galactic center and much higher than in the halo. Stars are randomly and evenly distributed in the galactic disc, with density gradients, being more densely packed nearer the galactic core and less densely packed nearer the outer rim of the galactic disc. And there is a much steeper gradient in star density with increasing distance from the galactic plane as the stars gradually thin out into the galactic halo.

And what about the the spiral arms of a spiral galaxy? They look very impressive but don't mean much as far as the distribution of stars is concerned. Spiral arms are very bright because they contain young and recently formed stars, and thus contain many highly massive and highly luminous stars which have not yet ended up as dim white dwarfs, even dimmer neutron stars, and black holes. Spiral arms have a much higher ratio of luminosity to mass than the spaces between them, but the distribution of disc stars is pretty much the same between spiral arms and the spaces between them.

so probably Voyager would have no reason to restrict its travel to spiral arms as though spiral arms were significant features instead of merely spectacular ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_galaxy#Origin_of_the_spiral_structure

 

[Qonundrum]

Like they did with the Suliban? How many of these new and interesting races ever showed up again?


Considering that it was a prequel series and the first prequel to Star Trek I think it was a given that these species would show up and were expected to show up.

Assuming they're interesting...

Unless a prequel's finale would wipe them out forever, literally or figuratively. It's another legitimate reason that prequels don't always fare as well, introducing new species only have x number of solutions... if creators alter continuity for the sake of creative freedom, a prequel is a double-whammy as it's also pushing against a lot more (not just coming up with a new idea and finding ways to keep it grand - like the Borg, the best and also most obvious example of this.) It's also why TOS and movies prior to 2009 never did an academy movie despite the idea being floated by Gene.

It's a harder sell, seeing 500 years of history then doing a prequel where, all of a sudden, Earth explodes and we're expected to care and wonder how they're going to bring it back. That's a tall order since it does and the only option left is "alternate timeline", which was done in 2009 and will become its own crutch by its third or fiftieth use. On the plus side, that might allow the creation of new shows influenced by old ones instead of taking existing ones and putting them down the gutter.

But TOS also did say off the bat they hadn't heard of Romulans for 100 years, which is an open door for a prequel to use them then leave them be. For anyone who watches prequels to see unanswered questions get explained between continuity points A and B. But who's really anal enough to really care about that penciled history, even before the eraser tip is used - is there really a large enough audience just to answer that little side point?

 

[Saul]

For anyone who watches prequels to see unanswered questions get explained between continuity points A and B. But who's really anal enough to really care about that penciled history

I'm sorry Star Wars fans, It seems you've wasted your lives.

 

[valkyrie013]

There's still alot of wiggle room in a prequel, just have to not step on any toes, so in the series bible they would be what they can and can't do, and what they would like to accomplish.
What if the Klingon that showed up in Broken Bow.. was a romulan? and he passed away, and all we think of is, who is this vulcan? But the Vulcans are like.. oh crap.

You'd have romulans from the start stiring up crap, usually through proxys from the begining, and you'd have a nice slow burn like Babylon 5 where by season 3 your at war.
Hmm.. might have to write that idea out..

 

[Nathalie]

Star Trek: Voyager "Year of Hell" was to be a year long story arc, but the network said no. We got a 2-parter instead. Do y'all think the Xindi saga is similar to VOY's concept for Year of Hell?

Maybe. But you missed someone that wanted to be a part of the game...

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Star Trek isn't real. This isn't a historical docu-drama. Why does a prequel have to slave to canon? Why are writers expected to slave to throw away dialogue from 50 years ago?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Xindi Arc is probably very similar to how Year of Hell probably would have ended up if it were a full year. But since it wasn't it's only similar in broad strokes.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Star Trek isn't real. This isn't a historical docu-drama. Why does a prequel have to slave to canon? Why are writers expected to slave to throw away dialogue from 50 years ago?

Because they chose to write a story in the same universe as a show from 50 years ago.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Xindi Arc > Year of Hell.

Why?

Because VOY had a nasty habit or hitting the reset button after most of their stories. YOH being one of them. With the Xindi and ENT, there would be no reset to the status quo.

 

[Tenacity]

Why are writers expected to slave to throw away dialogue from 50 years ago?

Then why have any world building at all in Star Trek?

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Because VOY had a nasty habit or hitting the reset button after most of their stories.

It's called episodic television.

Then why have any world building at all in Star Trek?

There's world building, and then there's throw away dialogue. I don't care about throw away dialogue from a 50-year-old episode that was written with no expectation of a franchise spanning nearly 800 episodes plus 13 movies.

 

[1001001]

Also some seem to ignore how often a character may be expressing their opinion, rather than an objective fact. Just like if someone was filming your everyday interactions, and assuming that everything you said was true for all of Earth. Or that you never misremember, or just plain make a mistake.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

It's called episodic television.

All the other Treks managed to get by with few reset buttons after the bulk of their episodes. On VOY, it was a recurring event. Because the main arc, of this episodic show, was to get the crew home.

I can't count how many times the crew of VOY died, or the ship was destroyed beyond repair, or time travel was used to reset the status quo for next week's episode. At 167 episodes, I remember it being a considerable amount.

There's world building, and then there's throw away dialogue. I don't care about throw away dialogue from a 50-year-old episode that was written with no expectation of a franchise spanning nearly 800 episodes plus 13 movies.

There's only one troublesome quote in all of Trek canon that comes to my mind.

Spock: Balance of Terror -
"As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought. By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels. Which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication.

Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time."

Pity we never got that 5th season of ENT. Where the Romulan War was to be developed for TV. Trying to do it now, would be sure to cause a ruckus in the fandom. There's no way to reconcile Spock's version of history, with the technology the Federation/Star Fleet had on display in ENT.

 

[Timo]

Oh? I'd consider that absolutely trivial: obviously the Romulans would refuse to turn on their vidiphones, despite very much having those.

Indeed, there's no way anybody could convince me that the writer Schneider ever for a moment intended this to be a lack-of-tech issue. That's not how the phrasing reads, that's not how any scifi writer younger than Jules Verne would be at liberty to think.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I was disappointed that they used the Xindi instead of an established race like the Romulans

Everything doesn't have to be either the Romulans or the Klingons. Both could have been completely excluded from ENT and imho the show would have been better for it.

How about the Kzinti?

Rather than wait for the fifth season that will never be, they could've brought them in a couple years earlier and made them the ones manipulated by the Sphere Builders.