Spoilers X-Men: Apocalypse - Grading & Discussion

[Booji]

It was started by someone saying Apocalypse of the movie lacked the depth shown in the comic series, specifically Age of Apocalypse. I said it took over a decade of appearances to get to that series (and therefore the shown depth) something a single movie doesn't have the luxury of doing. You said Marvel did that with Thanos. And I pointed out how that's not at all a similar thing, mist notably, there"s been zero layers added to Thanos. This was about character depth in comics vs movies from the start where I joined the discussion.

Which goal posts are you watching again?

You said movies don't have the luxury of building up story lines like comics... I showed Marvel is indeed doing that, which you shot down... Facts are facts. Marvel IS doing it... with Thanos... already did it with Civil War, and I'm sure there will still be fallout from Cap3. This is why old comic heads are so pumped with Marvel... we're getting what we dreamed of for decades and we love it because it works.

Saying AoA took a decade to build... is simply not true. I read X-Men during the 80s and 90s and AoA was built up in maybe 6 months if my memory serves me. All you needed to know about Apocalypse was summed up by crookeddy.

You also state that marvel releases 2 movies a year... but only 4 of their films have directly tied to 'Infinity War'... 4 films in an 8 year span... Fox could have handled that easy. X3 could have been Morlocks, introduce Sinister and have some Apocalypse in the background... Cable is being introduced in Deadpool 2, so a quick couple lines and you have so more building... Fox is still looking to expand their X franchises, so do an X-Force flick next (and with Cable, you can slowly build the big A more)... then maybe X4 and X5 treated like 'Infinity War' 1 & 2? You could have had 4-6 years to give Apocalypse, who is pretty much the X-Men final level boss, a proper build up to shit hitting the fan.

Fox could have taken their time, but they didn't have the patience. I understand their POV, but I wish they went the Marvel route of long term planning. It is what it is.

 

[Booji]

Mutants = strong, humans = weak. He's pissed that humanity is ruling the world.

For me, it's also more than the strong/weak thing. Wait a couple years, and Cable would have been established... Could have fleshed out Cyk and Jean more since they are big pieces in Apocalypse stories... introduce Mr Sinister cause him and the Big A are like Kibbles and Bits... but different.

Meh, whatev. The whole thing is likely gonna get rebooted in a couple years and put into the Marvel timeline anyway

 

[LJones41]

I gave it a B-. It seemed a lot less convoluted than "DAYS OF FUTURE PAST". But some of the cast members were too young for their roles (like McAvoy, Fassbender and Helman). And Singer handled the Storm and Psylocke characters rather badly. He nearly ignored them. I'm not surprised. His handling of Storm has always been bothersome to me.

 

[Set Harth]

And why is it that Angel is always handled terribly in X-Men movies?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Marvel IS doing it... with Thanos...

He sits on his ass and people tell us he's threatening. Thats not exactly building up.

 

[crookeddy]

And why is it that Angel is always handled terribly in X-Men movies?

Angel and Psylocke are completely useless in this movie. They are hardly characters at all! Just evil henchmen types.

 

[Set Harth]

He sits on his ass and people tell us he's threatening. Thats not exactly building up.

Well, we see that Ronan is afraid of him, for whatever that's worth.

 

[Crystalline Entity]

Really good X-men movie IMO, a great wrap-up of both the new trilogy and the old, and sets a nice clean stage for further X-men movies. But (and it's a big BUT), the ending with Magneto is extremely problematic. First a couple quick thoughts:

* The Return of the Jedi scene didn't just provide a not-so-subtle putdown of TLS; there's a nice thematic parallel with Magneto being Vader, Apocalypse the Emperor, and Mystique as Luke (kinda sorta).

* Magneto destroying Auschwitz was profane in a good way. For us it clearly shows him becoming the very evil that victimized him, but from Eric's perspective a museum commemorating the slaughter of his people is the last thing he would care about.

* We finally have a resolution (if uneasy) of the conflict between Charles and Eric's point of view re: mutants and the world. When MacAvoy repeats Patrick's lines from the end of X1, you see Fassbender smile a bit and quickly nod. Unlike in the OT, Eric seems satisfied that Charles is no longer so naive, and can be entrusted to fight on behalf of mutants.

Now for the real problem: Magneto getting off scot-free at the end. Personally I'm not one of those people who harp on collateral damage in comic book movies, especially in Man of Steel. I even think the Marvel movies go overboard in trying to remind us the Avengers try to limit civilian casualties. But this time, Magneto must have killed countless thousands, if not millions of people. And Charles just lets him go! It was bad enough at the end of Days of Future Past, but here it's just inexcusable. Indeed, the only conclusion is that Xavier is morally blind to Eric.

Or perhaps... it's a reminder of Xavier's dark side: it really hit me in this movie how casually Professor X uses his mental powers with near-zero regard for other's privacy. Making people forget you read and took over their minds and bodies doesn't make it ok! He did look pretty fierce in the closing shot: it might be interesting to see Charles go down a darker path in future movies - this time properly developed and not a bombshell revelation like in X3.

As for Magneto, there's a way they could have avoided this: have Magneto die at the end. I thought it was a possibility this would happen; now I'm certain it should have. Imagine Vader living at the end of Return of the Jedi - very awkward, yes? Same here. It would have been a loss for future films, but just like Wolverine should be deemphasized going forward, the arc of the Charles-Eric relationship is complete - no need to go back to it again. If they make Magneto a bad guy in the next film, that will be really old. Time for the X-men to evolve, lol.

 

[Gaith]

^ Mike Stoklasa agrees, very reasonably wondering why Xavier didn't "INCAPACITATE MAGNETO FOR EVER?!?!"

I think the only plausible moral justification is that Apocalypse was working some degree of mind control/influence over Erik, to the point where he wasn't really at fault for what happened, and being a telepath, Xavier can measure and understand that. But if that was the intention, it certainly wasn't explicitly stated, making Xavier's casual farewell to Erik, rather than at the very least confining him to the school grounds for life, completely absurd. I hope the blu ray commentary or future interviews with Singer sheds some light on all this.

 

[Tosk]

As for Magneto, there's a way they could have avoided this: have Magneto die at the end.

Honestly, I kind of wish he died at the end of Days of Future Past. I wouldn't have said so back when it came out, but his role feels so forced in Apocalypse that it made me start to think how dramatic it could have been to off him while still a bad guy at DoFP's climax, especially as he was a good guy in the future portion of the film, making it more tragic that he will no longer exist. Or something like that.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I had hoped Magneto and Mystique would've both bit the bullet in Apocalypse. Unfortunately we seem to be trapped in a time loop.

 

[Mr Light]

I spent the entire movie assuming the Horsemen were under some degree of mind control. But I may have just gotten that from the comics; the movie should have been more explicit.

 

[Set Harth]

I had hoped Magneto and Mystique would've both bit the bullet in Apocalypse.

Wouldn't Magneto have just bent the bullet?

 

[crookeddy]

Magneto facing no consequences for killing what can only be assumed as millions of people makes Xavier, and all the X-Men for that matter morally corrupt. Magneto didn't go through with the genocide of the entire human race, but he obviously considered it by following Apocalypse as far as he did. He is far too dangerous to just leave alone at this point!

I think a good plot point would have been to have Xavier be forced to wipe Eric's mind (though not leading to Onslaught as that was just an awful story)

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Magneto facing no consequences for killing what can only be assumed as millions of people makes Xavier, and all the X-Men for that matter morally corrupt. Magneto didn't go through with the genocide of the entire human race, but he obviously considered it by following Apocalypse as far as he did. He is far too dangerous to just leave alone at this point!

I think a good plot point would have been to have Xavier be forced to wipe Eric's mind (though not leading to Onslaught as that was just an awful story)

They thought they could gloss over the deaths that would come from the destruction if they just didn't focus on it.
From http://heroichollywood.com/bryan-singer-talks-ally-sheedys/:

We tried to keep it that the things that [Magneto] was destroying felt almost more like monuments or rooftops of buildings rather than a building toppling over and people dying. It’s one of the things that Bryan’s very sensitive to. I may be less sensitive to it. Actually, I’m sort of more of a genre geek where I’m okay if cities are destroyed. Bryan’s very sensitive to collateral damage. If you go back and watch the movie, it’s things like bridges ripping apart and cars floating up in the air, but you don’t see cars dive-bombing into the water. Shipping containers flying through the air, but they don’t smash into any bodies. The top of the Sydney Opera House ripping off, but the base of it remaining intact. We tried to be careful about that collateral damage. It’s something people are very critical about in other movies that we know about.

I don't think they pulled it off and it all came across as callous and indifferent to how people must have suffered and been sacrificed. At the end Magneto's all chummy with Xavier and it didn't seem right.

 

[JD]

Yeah, if that was the intent then they didn't pull it off very well. There's no way there wouldn't be at least thousands of people dying from what they were showing in those scenes.
I wasn't to bothered by Magneto's treatment at the end, since I just wrote things off as his being influenced by Apocalypse, and not being in his right mind.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

It was an average film. The best parts were the attempts to humanize Magneto - his genuine desire to fit in and lead a "normal" life and how tragedy can lead a person into some very dark places. But the transition from his tragedy to attempted genocide (and actual mass-murder) is wholly unbelievable and problematic (as presented on-screen). And, at this point, I'm very much over the mass-destruction-porn than has become too commonplace in recent movies (Man of Steel; Into Darkness, etc.) - so much so that the scenes have almost no emotional impact - especially when there's so little exploration of the consequences of that massive destruction.

Otherwise, it was a typically action-based, mindlessly entertaining summer flick.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I like to think that Apocalypse's transformation brainwashes them into acting upon their worst impulses without control, that he unleashes their unfettered id. I know that doesn't seem to be the case but for me it helps give some rationale to their actions.

 

[DonIago]

I certainly assumed that Apocalypse had some degree of influence over them. It was just about the only explanation that made any sense for the actions they undertook.

 

[Crystalline Entity]

I spent the entire movie assuming the Horsemen were under some degree of mind control. But I may have just gotten that from the comics; the movie should have been more explicit.

From the film, Apocalypse must have at least some ability to read minds and influence them - how else would he have known to take Magneto to Auschwitz? Actually, there is someone who comes to mind with very similar mental powers: Sybok! From Star Trek... you remember.

Magneto facing no consequences for killing what can only be assumed as millions of people makes Xavier, and all the X-Men for that matter morally corrupt.

I grumble about it, but there is barely enough to the argument that Magneto was mentally manipulated, and a voiceover saying how he aided in the defeat of Apocalypse, that it isn't unrealistic for the major powers in the world to look the other way from what happened without screaming for Eric's head. But the Magneto villain well has finally run dry: make him a bad guy again and it will completely discredit Xavier, which is the last thing Fox should do. Since he didn't die, I really think he should fade away.

Although it is foreign to the X-men movie universe, and duplicative of CA: Civil War, there has to be some governmental oversight to the X-men in the future films, right? I don't see how the X-men can just go about and do whatever they please, especially after what happened in Apocalypse. In the OT, the X-men were a secret force that only fully-emerged at Liberty Island. The government kinda strikes back in X2, and in X3 there is explicit mutant participation in the national security state (but still no regulation of the X-men themselves). In the new timeline, the power of mutants has been seen and heard by the entire world - literally - and it would be patently unrealistic for things to be unchanged in the future.

Of course they could ignore it and do as they did in the past, but that would be a real disappointment.