Wouldn't you expect more Defiants in the current timeline?

[MatthiasRussell]

After the Dominion War, wouldn't you expect to see more Defiants in the books? It seems like during the Borg invasion and afterwards, we read about a lot of big ships like Galaxies or Akiras, but wouldn't you expect to see more of the smaller, easier to mass produce Defiants which were designed with the Borg in mind? I imagine production of them would have stepped up in the recent turbulent years but rarely see them in literature.

Also, would the Defiant fleet make good candidates to be refitted with slipstream? Even if their shape isn't ideal, they do have very a massive power output.

 

[MacLeod]

The Defiant Class isn't really suitable for many missions. No science labs to be speak about, limited scope for diplomatic missions. They might be kept behind the lines for doing milkruns or they could have been semi-retired from active service.

 

[Christopher]

We were told from its introduction that the Defiant was a problematical class of ship, so overpowered that it "nearly tore itself apart" in testing. It was built for the exclusive purpose of combat, specifically fighting the Borg. It's too specialized to be useful in peacetime. Maybe you could beat the swords into ploughshares by equipping existing Defiant spaceframes (what few there were that survived the Dominion War) with smaller engines and fewer weapons, but why bother to build new ones when there are so many other Starfleet ship classes already designed for other purposes?

 

[DS9forever]

I take it everyone has forgotten the events of Mission Gamma then? Twilight specifically mentions many scientific upgrades the Defiant received, including a stellar cartography section.

 

[Relayer1]

The class is ideal for security and mundane duties such as border patrols though - small, fast, powerful and relatively small crew.

There's no need to tie up a fully equipped starship with that sort of mission...

 

[Christopher]

I take it everyone has forgotten the events of Mission Gamma then? Twilight specifically mentions many scientific upgrades the Defiant received, including a stellar cartography section.

Yes, but that's taking an existing ship you've already got and, as I said, beating the sword into a ploughshare. It doesn't justify building more Defiant-class ships to do what existing ship classes are already much better at doing.

 

[Relayer1]

Assuming there were quite a few Defiant class ships that survived the Dominion War and the Borg invasion, I would say that those not redeployed on patrol duty (such as along the Neutral Zone) may well be kept semi mothballed in several locations. If not useful at the moment, hey would be maintained as a fast response reserve in case of need.

 

[Warp Coil]

Given that the Defiant class was designed specifically as a weapon to fight against the Borg, I wonder how many were destroyed in battle during the Borg invasion. There many not be too many ships of that class left. Those that did survive may be deployed to secure the Federation's borders, particularly with the Typhon Pact stirring up trouble.

 

[Christopher]

Assuming there were quite a few Defiant class ships that survived the Dominion War and the Borg invasion...

Whyever would we assume that? Sure, we know of a few beyond the original Defiant (destroyed), the Valiant (destroyed), and the Sao Paolo which was renamed as the new Defiant (intact), but not many. At least two were seen in the Second Fleet in "A Call to Arms," two were seen in "Prometheus," and two were seen in "Endgame." But since they were specifically designed as frontline battleships, it's reasonable to expect their attrition rate would be fairly high compared to, say, scout-ship classes. Probably quite a few of them were destroyed in the Borg invasion.

 

[DimesDan]

two were seen in "Prometheus,"

Not wanting to nit pick, but do you mean Message in a Bottle?

 

[j3067]

I always wondered the same thing about why we don't see Defiant Class ships. It may have been specifically designed with the Borg in mind, but it was clearly effective against the Dominion.

It kinda connects to another thing I always wondered about; why does every Starfleet Ship seem to require a full Captain also be a captain in rank (Four Pips)? Ships like the Nova or the Defiant class always seemed like they should have a lower ranking officer serving as captain. Many current naval vessels operate in this way.

 

[Christopher]

It kinda connects to another thing I always wondered about; why does every Starfleet Ship seem to require a full Captain also be a captain in rank (Four Pips)? Ships like the Nova or the Defiant class always seemed like they should have a lower ranking officer serving as captain. Many current naval vessels operate in this way.

But most of the television audience isn't familiar with naval protocols and would be confused by captains that weren't of captain's rank. It's about simplifying things for the viewer.

 

[j3067]

Like Lt. Commander Quinton McHale from McHale's Navy? A more savvy audience perhaps?

 

[Relayer1]

We need to address the total size of Starfleet, unfortunately although large numbers of ships were seen in the Dominion War, I have no idea !

The issue is, that even with relatively small increases in the distance explored from the core worlds of the Federation, comes a huge increase in the volume of space covered. If the lines of communication, trade and transport are to be maintained, the pressure will be to keep as many ships in service as possible - hence the number of old Excelsior class ships still in service. Demand for ships would probably be so high as the Federation expanded, that very ancient vessels would probably still be being refitted and used for everyday missions, with the newer vessels used for security and exploration.

Even if there were few Defiants left after the war, their suitability for relatively quick and cheap production would probably mean more (or variants) would be built.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

It was stated in a post Destiny book that Starfleet had to rebuild and could focus on exploration cruisers again, though I don't remember the book or exact quote. I figured this to mean they had been pumping out warships, ie Defiants. Sure they had a high rate of attrition mf but no doubt production was equally vast. I would have expected them to be quickly reactivated after the Dominion War (if they were ever mothballed) when the invasion started but those battles never seemed to use Defiants.

Sure they have limited capabilities and overpowered engines. But outfit them with slipstream and you got a serious deterrent against the typhon pact. During this cold war, they are as useful as ever!

 

[Christopher]

It was stated in a post Destiny book that Starfleet had to rebuild and could focus on exploration cruisers again, though I don't remember the book or exact quote. I figured this to mean they had been pumping out warships, ie Defiants.

The Defiants weren't the only class designed with combat in mind after the Borg contact. At least in some behind-the-scenes or fan sources, that's believed to be the design philosophy behind the Sovereign and the other classes that showed up in First Contact like the Sabre, Steamrunner, and Akira.

And I don't follow the assumption in Relayer1's post that Defiants are quick and cheap to make. They're overpowered, heavily armored, excessively beweaponed. That probably makes them harder and costlier (in resources, time, and energy) to make than a standard ship. A tank is probably harder to make than an ATV or a Humvee.

Sure they had a high rate of attrition mf but no doubt production was equally vast.

"No doubt?" How do you justify these absolute statements? They're just assumptions. I see plenty of basis for doubt.

Sure they have limited capabilities and overpowered engines. But outfit them with slipstream and you got a serious deterrent against the typhon pact.

"Deterrent?" Come on, if the Federation took such an aggressive action, it would provoke the Typhon Pact into responding in kind. The Pact formed because they were afraid of the Federation's dominance and wanted to be strong enough to achieve self-determination. That means they don't want to start a fight, they just want to be left alone. The best thing the Federation can do to "deter" the Pact is to avoid looking like a threat to them. In other words, to do what the Federation usually does, which is to engage other civilizations with friendship and diplomacy.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

So the best thing for the US to have done in the cold war would have been not building and deploying weapons? You want to be on par if not better armed than your enemy.

Defiants take far less building materials than Sovereigns, Akiras, etc. Being a smaller design, you can build more of them than you can Sovereigns just on material and complexity. Abrams tanks aren't much bigger than Humvees so the comparison doesn't work, and in this case the starfleet "tank" is amongst the smallest in the fleet. Granted the defiant has a lot of armor and weapons but I doubt it has more weaponry than a Galaxy or Sovereign. Though the engines are overpowered for it's size, the engines probably couldn't run a larger Sovereign with its many more systems and facilities.

 

[Aaron McGuire]

So the best thing for the US to have done in the cold war would have been not building and deploying weapons? You want to be on par if not better armed than your enemy.

Indeed. We totally beat the Soviets with the number of tanks we built. The collapse of the USSR had not one thing to do with diplomacy or philosophy.

It was all about swinging dicks.

Aaron McGuire

 

[BrotherBenny]

The Defiant-class is not built for exploration. Starfleet may officially classify it as an escort vessel but as Sisko said, it's a warship, built to fend off the Borg. It was effective against the Dominion and when the Borg came back prior to Destiny, it's a safe bet that Starfleet built a bunch more. True, a great number of them could have been destroyed during the events of Destiny, but post-Destiny there is no need for a ship designed to fight an enemy that no longer exists.

I would speculate that the Defiant-class starships would be used, as previously suggested, as border patrol vessels or key facility protection vessels, like Memory Alpha or classified research stations. There are enough dedicated classes for scientific research: the remaining Oberth-, Saber-, Steamrunner-, Nova-, and Intrepid-class ships, and then the Full Circle fleet Merian-class ships. That's six classes dedicated to scientific purposes, and I'm sure I've missed a few. Why add something like the Defiant-class to that list?

The mission profile is completely wrong.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

So the best thing for the US to have done in the cold war would have been not building and deploying weapons? You want to be on par if not better armed than your enemy.

Indeed. We totally beat the Soviets with the number of tanks we built. The collapse of the USSR had not one thing to do with diplomacy or philosophy.

It was all about swinging dicks.

Aaron McGuire

You're both half right (and half WRONG.)

The Soviets built more weapons. The US built better weapons. Weapons that greatly reduced the effectiveness of the Soviet numerical superiority. Weapons that cost a lot of money to attempt to defeat, which meant that diplomacy became a lot more cost-effective than, say, a bunch of proxy wars.

So, yeah, TWO prongs, relying on only one or the other is a fool's choice.

Because if you WANT to get your enemy to the negotiating table, you'd BETTER be able to make fighting you not worth the effort.