Wouldn't recent events lead to full war between Fed and Romulan Free State?

[Tarek71]

I think of them like the Men In Black in a way. I don't think they are as powerful as they brag about, and their authority depends greatly on what they can get away with.

Even after 800 installments of Trek, we dont know much about the Federation govt. I dont think there has been a single reference to elections ever taking place. I assume that there are elections. I assume there is some kind of Federation civilian law enforcement, like the FBI. The CIA is also civilian, so no mention of that either. Starfleet Intelligence would be more analogous to the Office of Naval Intelligence or other Military Intelligence. Unless it isnt. Who knows?

I am guessing that no Govt official or top brass officer wants to be linked to a plot to annhilate the Klingon homeworld with a WMD or a genocidal disease to exterminate the Founders. So if these things were done at the order of the Fed govt or Starfleet, or with their approval and assistance, that this would be denied in any case.

The problem is that there is no way it could be this secret for this long. The reason lengthy works have been written about the misdeeds of the CIA, FBI, etc is that it is hard to keep these things under wraps forever. And the more episodes and series they appear in, the harder it gets to continue the pretense that hardly anyone knows they exist.

 

[fireproof78]

Just imagine what the sub-forum for the S31 show is going to be like when it arrives.

I bet all the mods are fighting over who will get to moderate that little bundle of joy.

I have an idea, why not put it to the ordinary forum members in a vote.

Now that I think about it, how are such things decided, is it:

Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock?
Pin the tail on the Sub-Forum?
Does everyone draw straws?
Pistols at 10 paces?
Russian Roulette?

Or is it such a serious matter that the big guns have to be brought out:

Snap?
Kerplunk?
Buckaroo?
Operation?

Just asking for a friend.

A battle of wits.

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[The Old Mixer]

To get this back marginally on the original topic of Oh and how her actions affect Romulan-Federation relations,

Ya had me...

what if she was also a member of Section 31?

...then ya lost me.

I bet all the mods are fighting over who will get to moderate that little bundle of joy.

I'll be a big proponent of getting that into its own forum, as it'll be my PITA in FoT until it does...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Bear in mind they are about as far after the Dominion war as we are from 9/11. Everybody is war weary. The Federation doesn't attack others because it is angry, it only initiates violent conflict if they are absolutely sure it's the only way to prevent violent conflict against them.

 

[Gonzo]

I'll be a big proponent of getting that into its own forum, as it'll be my PITA in FoT until it does...

I thought as much.

Still I am sure no one would try and default you into it or anything.

As another current streaming show I assume it will be given to mods who are not already dealing with one:

Star Trek: Discovery - Locutus of Bored, Cultcross, Emilia
Star Trek: Picard - Yourself, Kennyb
Star Trek: S31 - ??

Who does that leave, I don't know the full roster of mods like some other members do.

Just had a look through the current staff list, so many worthy souls for the streaming show penitent wheel.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I assume there is some kind of Federation civilian law enforcement, like the FBI.

Yes, the Federation Security Agency. One of their agents appears in ST III (he takes McCoy into custody).

 

[Sci]

That's making a lot of assumptions that the Federation Starfleet Charter doesn't contain the same provision.

No such canonical evidence has been presented.

All Sloane's statement goes back to saying is, "Our organization is old."

True! And "old" is not the same thing as "part of the government."

Also, again, we're now in retcon time where better or worse it's OBVIOUSLY operating with full approval in the current canon series.

Yeah, there's a seeming discontinuity between how S31 is depicted in DS9 vs how it's depicted in DIS. It's especially obnoxious because the creative decision to make it "Section 31" instead of "Starfleet Intelligence" adds nothing to the storyline. But, again, part of the entire point of the S31 arc in DIS Season Two is that Control was feeding Starfleet false information, so we can reconcile the depiction of S31 in DIS S2 with its depiction in DS9 by assuming that the officers involved were fed false documentation.

Sci,

No. It is a govt agency. Thats consistent in every series and film where they appear. You invented the idea that Kirk is "lied to" about Section 31 when nothing onscreen supports that. Kirk doesnt say "Section 31, WTF is that?".

Already covered by another poster.

There is no basis for saying Sloan meant the Earth Starfleet

Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter is literally cited in "Divergence."

and that the Federation Starfleet Charter does not contain a similar provision.

1) There is no canonical evidence the Federation Starfleet Charter contains a similar provision. That is headcanon.

2) Even if it did, that provision does not actually authorize the existence of a division of Starfleet.

You made that up. That is head canon. No episode or film says this. Oh, the Fed Starfleet Charter has no such provision? You invented that.

You invented the idea that it does. No such evidence has ever been established canonically. Sloan does not cite the Federation Starfleet Charter -- he cites "the original Starfleet Charter," which ENT clarifies to be the United Earth Starfleet Charter.

How many times do you have to be told about the actual history of spying and surveillance of govt ministers and officials BY govt agencies

Show me the time in history when MI-6 or the FBI or CIA literally never answered to the head of government -- not just didn't submit reports on one operation, but submitted no reports and took no orders whatsoever.

Oh dear one week without a new episode and the forum has already devolved back down to a S31 discussion.

The mods must be so full of joy at the sight.

The top brass in Starfleet know about S31 and it makes them uncomfortable but there is a pill for that so its ok.

No they wont do anything to stop them because they are useful and do the jobs others are not willing or able to do.

Its just black ops, plausible deniability, don't ask, don't tell and all that, its probable that they have a proper reporting structure within S31 only and a barely visible dotted line to some department in Starfleet or the Federation even if it is only for funding.

"Inquisition" explicitly establishes that no such reporting structure or "barely visible dotted line" exists. Section 31 does not answer to or take orders from Starfleet Command or the Federation President.

To get this back marginally on the original topic of Oh and how her actions affect Romulan-Federation relations, what if she was also a member of Section 31? A member of the Zhat Vash, Tal Shiar, and Section 31 all at the same time! We know that Koval was a member of both Section 31 and the Tal Shiar apparently: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Koval . Since he was Tal Shiar chairman, he'd also have known about the Zhat Vash?

That's a very interesting point about Koval, but I think it is highly probable that he did not know about the Zhat Vash. Nedar had to have begun her infiltration of Starfleet before 2375 (DS9 Season 7), and it seems improbable to me that Koval would not have informed Section 31 of her infiltration if he knew about her. And none of Nedar's surreptitious actions advanced Federation or even Section 31 interests that we know of. So I would infer that Koval was unaware of the Zhat Vash and/or unaware of Nedar's infiltration of Starfleet.

Also, supposedly Koval murdered Fujisaki, deputy chair of Starfleet Intelligence... https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Fujisaki . Is this when he had Oh installed into Starfleet Intelligence?

Nedar was infiltrating Starfleet Security, not Starfleet Intelligence.

Even after 800 installments of Trek, we dont know much about the Federation govt. I dont think there has been a single reference to elections ever taking place.

DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" two-parter establishes that Federation Presidents are popularly elected, and DS9's "Rapture" makes reference to elections of Federation Councillors.

I assume there is some kind of Federation civilian law enforcement, like the FBI.

An agent of Federation Security arrests Dr. McCoy in TSFS for trying to book illegal passage to the Genesis Planet. To my knowledge, that's the only time we see them, but PIC's "Remembrance" makes reference to an unconscious Picard being found by police, IIRC.

The CIA is also civilian, so no mention of that either. Starfleet Intelligence would be more analogous to the Office of Naval Intelligence or other Military Intelligence. Unless it isnt. Who knows?

I would definitely consider Starfleet Intelligence to be analogous to a military intelligence organization, yeah. For whatever it's worth, the novel Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game and the Cold Equations trilogy by David Mack established the Federation Security Agency (presumably the same thing as Federation Security from TSFS) to be the UFP's combination civilian intelligence agency, counter-intelligence and internal security agency, and that a special division of the FSA was responsible for protecting the Federation President. So, the FSA is basically a sort of combined CIA/FBI/Secret Service.

I am guessing that no Govt official or top brass officer wants to be linked to a plot to annhilate the Klingon homeworld with a WMD or a genocidal disease to exterminate the Founders.

Odo explicitly says that the Federation government disavowed the Founder genocide attempt and condemned Section 31's methods to him in "The Dogs of War" -- which is another bit of evidence that Section 31 is not an actual part of the Federation government.

The problem is that there is no way it could be this secret for this long. The reason lengthy works have been written about the misdeeds of the CIA, FBI, etc is that it is hard to keep these things under wraps forever. And the more episodes and series they appear in, the harder it gets to continue the pretense that hardly anyone knows they exist.

Very true. The novels initially over-used Section 31 with the original S31 miniseries in 2001, but they pulled away from that for the most part later on. The novel Section 31: Control (written and published before DIS S2; it inspired part of the plot of that season) even had to create an explanation for how S31 stayed secret for so long.

 

[Tarek71]

Yes, the Federation Security Agency. One of their agents appears in ST III (he takes McCoy into custody).

 

[Tarek71]

No such canonical evidence has been presented.



True! And "old" is not the same thing as "part of the government."



Yeah, there's a seeming discontinuity between how S31 is depicted in DS9 vs how it's depicted in DIS. It's especially obnoxious because the creative decision to make it "Section 31" instead of "Starfleet Intelligence" adds nothing to the storyline. But, again, part of the entire point of the S31 arc in DIS Season Two is that Control was feeding Starfleet false information, so we can reconcile the depiction of S31 in DIS S2 with its depiction in DS9 by assuming that the officers involved were fed false documentation.



Already covered by another poster.



Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter is literally cited in "Divergence."



1) There is no canonical evidence the Federation Starfleet Charter contains a similar provision. That is headcanon.

2) Even if it did, that provision does not actually authorize the existence of a division of Starfleet.



You invented the idea that it does. No such evidence has ever been established canonically. Sloan does not cite the Federation Starfleet Charter -- he cites "the original Starfleet Charter," which ENT clarifies to be the United Earth Starfleet Charter.



Show me the time in history when MI-6 or the FBI or CIA literally never answered to the head of government -- not just didn't submit reports on one operation, but submitted no reports and took no orders whatsoever.



"Inquisition" explicitly establishes that no such reporting structure or "barely visible dotted line" exists. Section 31 does not answer to or take orders from Starfleet Command or the Federation President.



That's a very interesting point about Koval, but I think it is highly probable that he did not know about the Zhat Vash. Nedar had to have begun her infiltration of Starfleet before 2375 (DS9 Season 7), and it seems improbable to me that Koval would not have informed Section 31 of her infiltration if he knew about her. And none of Nedar's surreptitious actions advanced Federation or even Section 31 interests that we know of. So I would infer that Koval was unaware of the Zhat Vash and/or unaware of Nedar's infiltration of Starfleet.



Nedar was infiltrating Starfleet Security, not Starfleet Intelligence.



DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" two-parter establishes that Federation Presidents are popularly elected, and DS9's "Rapture" makes reference to elections of Federation Councillors.



An agent of Federation Security arrests Dr. McCoy in TSFS for trying to book illegal passage to the Genesis Planet. To my knowledge, that's the only time we see them, but PIC's "Remembrance" makes reference to an unconscious Picard being found by police, IIRC.



I would definitely consider Starfleet Intelligence to be analogous to a military intelligence organization, yeah. For whatever it's worth, the novel Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game and the Cold Equations trilogy by David Mack established the Federation Security Agency (presumably the same thing as Federation Security from TSFS) to be the UFP's combination civilian intelligence agency, counter-intelligence and internal security agency, and that a special division of the FSA was responsible for protecting the Federation President. So, the FSA is basically a sort of combined CIA/FBI/Secret Service.



Odo explicitly says that the Federation government disavowed the Founder genocide attempt and condemned Section 31's methods to him in "The Dogs of War" -- which is another bit of evidence that Section 31 is not an actual part of the Federation government.



Very true. The novels initially over-used Section 31 with the original S31 miniseries in 2001, but they pulled away from that for the most part later on. The novel Section 31: Control (written and published before DIS S2; it inspired part of the plot of that season) even had to create an explanation for how S31 stayed secret for so long.

It goes without saying that they would disavow these things, even if they supported it. I am sure if VADM Cornwell were asked by a reporter, she would deny any knowledge, let alone consent, or support, for a rumored plan to use a WMD to exterminate the Klingons.

We are dealing with different production teams and different showrunners over decades who may have their own different ideas about how to present these things. It's unlikely they knew when they had Sloan say the Starfleet charter, that they would later establish an Earth Starfleet, which also had a charter, in a show set in the 22nd Century where they wanted Section 31 to appear.

In-universe, the extension of the charter to make it the Starfleet of the whole Federation would not involve a change to that Section. The only change needed is to extend it's mission to the whole Federation. And you dont need to agree with their interpretation of a Section for it to be a govt agency. Just ask Libertarians what they think of using the "General Welfare" clause for the Social Security Admin. They say it's BS. Maybe. Nevertheless, there it is.

There is no grounds for saying Marcus lied about them being a branch of Starfleet. Kirk either already knew what it was or, like Odo, was not surprised by the existence of such an organization. Nothing in "Inquisition" establishes anything remotely like what you are saying. Though Gonzo is probably right to say that we should take things Sloan says with some caution, as we have no way of knowing how truthful he is being with Bashir.

Maybe Sloan, Marcus and Sect 31 personnel in ENT & Disco are all liars. Maybe. But I dont think we can cherrypick the comments that agree with our understanding of Sect 31 as truthful and assume the ones that cast some doubt on that interpretation are therefore "lies".

I have no issue with expanding the "Federation Security" guy's Agency as something like the FSA as described. That seems reasonable. It is unlikely that there would be no civilian law enforcement/intelligence agency.

 

[Gonzo]

It goes without saying that they would disavow these things, even if they supported it. I am sure if VADM Cornwell were asked by a reporter, she would deny any knowledge, let alone consent, or support, for a rumored plan to use a WMD to exterminate the Klingons.

We are dealing with different production teams and different showrunners over decades who may have their own different ideas about how to present these things. It's unlikely they knew when they had Sloan say the Starfleet charter, that they would later establish an Earth Starfleet, which also had a charter, in a show set in the 22nd Century where they wanted Section 31 to appear.

In-universe, the extension of the charter to make it the Starfleet of the whole Federation would not involve a change to that Section. The only change needed is to extend it's mission to the whole Federation. And you dont need to agree with their interpretation of a Section for it to be a govt agency. Just ask Libertarians what they think of using the "General Welfare" clause for the Social Security Admin. They say it's BS. Maybe. Nevertheless, there it is.

There is no grounds for saying Marcus lied about them being a branch of Starfleet. Kirk either already knew what it was or, like Odo, was not surprised by the existence of such an organization. Nothing in "Inquisition" establishes anything remotely like what you are saying. Though Gonzo is probably right to say that we should take things Sloan says with some caution, as we have no way of knowing how truthful he is being with Bashir.

Maybe Sloan, Marcus and Sect 31 personnel in ENT & Disco are all liars. Maybe. But I dont think we can cherrypick the comments that agree with our understanding of Sect 31 as truthful and assume the ones that cast some doubt on that interpretation are "lies".

I have no issue with expanding the "Federation Security" guy's Agency as something like the FSA as described. That seems reasonable. It is unlikely that there would be no civilian law enforcement/intelligence agency.

Like I said in my first post, I wouldn't use anything that Sloan said as a basis for an argument but some keep doing exactly that even though there is a very good chance he is lying.

It is a grey area at best but some are so against S31 being a legitimate agency there is no talking to them so I leave them alone.

 

[fireproof78]

Like I said in my first post, I wouldn't use anything that Sloan said as a basis for an argument but some keep doing exactly that even though there is a very good chance he is lying.

It is a grey area at best but some are so against S31 being a legitimate agency there is no talking to them so I leave them alone.

It's a gray which is perfectly fine by me. It's supposed to be a morally ambiguous question to begin with with Section 31.

 

[Sci]

It goes without saying that they would disavow these things, even if they supported it. I am sure if VADM Cornwell were asked by a reporter, she would deny any knowledge, let alone consent, or support, for a rumored plan to use a WMD to exterminate the Klingons.

The Federation Council more than disavows it. They say they explore Section 31's methods as illegal. Well, if you deplore their methods as illegal and they're part of the government and a third party is observing your behavior, then you'd rationally have to put their leaders under arrest. That they do not place the leaders of Section 31 under arrest for genocide while knowing that a foreign party is observing their behavior, rationally supports the conclusion that Section 31 is not part of the government and therefore not under the government's control. Otherwise, the observation of the foreign party would oblige the Federation government to have those Section 31 leaders arrested.

We are dealing with different production teams and different showrunners over decades who may have their own different ideas about how to present these things. It's unlikely they knew when they had Sloan say the Starfleet charter, that they would later establish an Earth Starfleet, which also had a charter, in a show set in the 22nd Century where they wanted Section 31 to appear.

And yet, that is canonically what happened: A S31 character in 2375 refers to the original Starfleet Charter as authorizing Section 31, and then an S31 character in 2154 refers to a separate, older charter as authorizing S31.

Thus, the canon is clear: Section 31 agents are citing Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter to justify their cabal's existence. The canon is also clear that that section does not actually authorize the existence of any Starfleet divisions.

These canonical facts -- that S31 justifies its existence by citing the UESF Charter, and that that passage of the UESF Charter does not actually establish a division of Starfleet -- are both consistent with and supportive of Sloan's claims that Section 31 does not answer to the Federation government in any way.

In-universe, the extension of the charter to make it the Starfleet of the whole Federation would not involve a change to that Section. The only change needed is to extend it's mission to the whole Federation.

This is merely headcannon and has not be canonically established.

And you dont need to agree with their interpretation of a Section for it to be a govt agency.

Yes, you do. An agency must be established by explicit statute. If the statute does not contain language that explicitly and clearly says that an agency is established, then the agency does not exist as a legal entity within the government.

Just ask Libertarians what they think of using the "General Welfare" clause for the Social Security Admin. They say it's BS. Maybe. Nevertheless, there it is.

That is a terrible comparison, because the United States Constitution does not establish the existence of specific executive-branch agencies other than the Post Office.

Executive branch agencies are established by statute, not by constitutions. Constitutions outline the processes by which agencies may be established or not established; they do not establish or abolish agencies themselves. Saying that a statute does not establish an agency is an entirely separate claim.

To make a comparison: A constitution is like an operating system, a statute is like an application, and an agency is like a script on an application. If I say that an application does not run a particular script, it would be absurd to claim that it can because other people have weird ideas about what kinds of applications the operating system allows.

Nothing in "Inquisition" establishes anything remotely like what you are saying.

You are now ignoring the explicit statements of fact in canon.

I have no issue with expanding the "Federation Security" guy's Agency as something like the FSA as described. That seems reasonable. It is unlikely that there would be no civilian law enforcement/intelligence agency.

Agreed.

Like I said in my first post, I wouldn't use anything that Sloan said as a basis for an argument but some keep doing exactly that even though there is a very good chance he is lying.

Though Gonzo is probably right to say that we should take things Sloan says with some caution, as we have no way of knowing how truthful he is being with Bashir.

The problem with the idea that Sloan is lying when he says Section 31 does not answer to the Federation government, is that such a lie would not serve his agenda. Sloan's goal in that scene is to convince Bashir that Section 31 is a good thing that he should want to join. He is noticeably surprised when Bashir rejects his offer to become a Section 31 agent. There is no evidence from any of his other appearances that Bashir rejecting membership served his interests in "Inquisition." It is far more plausible that Sloan erroneously believed that Section 31's status as a group of people who put themselves above the law, would attract Bashir rather than repel him.

Addendum:

Re: "General welfare vs. Social Security Administration."

A libertarian who claims that the United States Constitution's "General Welfare" clauses do not establish the existence of the Social Security Administration would be factually correct! Those clauses establishes no such agency.

The "general welfare" clauses of the United States Constitution read as follows:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Neither clause establishes the existence of the Social Security Administration. Rather, the SSA was established by the Social Security Act of 1935.

If we were to compare this to Sloan's and Harris's citation of Article 14, Section 31 of the UESF Charter, it would be as if they were to cite the United States Constitution as establishing the SSA when it in fact does no such thing, and then refuse to cite the statute that actually does establish the agency. Since Sloan and Harris do not cite any such statute, canonically, we do not have any reason to think that such statute exists.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Still I am sure no one would try and default you into it or anything.

For the record, I volunteered for this gig.

 

[Tarek71]

The Federation Council more than disavows it. They say they explore Section 31's methods as illegal. Well, if you deplore their methods as illegal and they're part of the government and a third party is observing your behavior, then you'd rationally have to put their leaders under arrest. That they do not place the leaders of Section 31 under arrest for genocide while knowing that a foreign party is observing their behavior, rationally supports the conclusion that Section 31 is not part of the government and therefore not under the government's control. Otherwise, the observation of the foreign party would oblige the Federation government to have those Section 31 leaders arrested.

What you would not do is tell Ben Sisko that you can neither confirm nor deny it's existence. That's what you would not do if you are Starfleet. Which is the answer Sisko got in "Inquisition". If they are a terrorist group, then name them, make arrests, raid facilities, launch strikes on their training centers etc. Instead they say they are part of Starfleet. Marcus says they are part of Starfleet. Cornwell works with them without issue and approves, however reluctantly with the genocide bomb plan. And when SIsko tries to get answers, they wont even confirm or deny that there is a Section 31.

Congress can denounce, disavow illegal wiretapping, waterboarding and other tortures, conspiring to overthrow foreign governments, etc. Does not mean they arent done or that no one in the Govt supported these actions. The govt black ops group doesnt likely consult with Congress or the Federation Council before doing it.

And yet, that is canonically what happened: A S31 character in 2375 refers to the original Starfleet Charter as authorizing Section 31, and then an S31 character in 2154 refers to a separate, older charter as authorizing S31.

And then your headcanon comes in to say that the Fed Starfleet Charter does not have that Section. You made that up. And it makes no difference whether you agree with their interpretation of the Section. It happens repeatedly in the real world. Sections, and Clauses are used to justify a wide range of new programs and agencies that are not specifically named in the original Constitution.

That is a terrible comparison, because the United States Constitution does not establish the existence of specific executive-branch agencies other than the Post Office.

It's a great comparison as that is exactly what the argument is. Those who think numerous Federal agencies, and programs are unconstitutional since these are not enumerated in the Constitution. That is exactly what the argument is. Starfleet was created under the charter, and while you may disagree with the decision to create a free standing department within SF to handle Section 31 matters, it is better supported in the text than dozens of US Federal Agencies that are not even close to being enumerated.

And yes, conservatives and libertarians who say the Constitution does not authorize the Govt to create such agencies and spending programs are correct that nowhere in the actual language are they specifically enumerated. That's why a vaguer and more open ended Clause is cited. Just like Section 31.

You are now ignoring the explicit statements of fact in canon.

No you are misstating what the episode says. No such thing is established anywhere in it. That's your headcanon only.

Agreed.

I would have preferred they reflect some of the real life interagency issues by associating a Sect 31 with a civilian CIA-like entity rather than have it be a part of Starfleet.

The problem with the idea that Sloan is lying when he says Section 31 does not answer to the Federation government, is that such a lie would not serve his agenda. Sloan's goal in that scene is to convince Bashir that Section 31 is a good thing that he should want to join. He is noticeably surprised when Bashir rejects his offer to become a Section 31 agent. There is no evidence from any of his other appearances that Bashir rejecting membership served his interests in "Inquisition." It is far more plausible that Sloan erroneously believed that Section 31's status as a group of people who put themselves above the law, would attract Bashir rather than repel him.

Marcus says it is part of Starfleet. Sloan says it is part of Starfleet. Albeit an autonomous department. He claims that it does not file reports nor require authorizations for specific operations. When Sisko asks about this, he is told by Starfleet that they can neither confirm nor deny that such an organization exists. Where you are getting the rest of this from "Inquisition" is beyond me. It's not onscreen.

I have no idea who Sloans bosses are, whether inside or outside of Section 31, if any. Sloan obviously has no motive to tell Bashir the names of people who are in a position to shut Sloan down. Nor any reason for us to spin Sloans remarks as saying the opposite of what he expressly says, which is that it is part of Starfleet. He says that, Marcus says that, but you know thats a lie because you read between the lines of OTHER things Sloan says that you think imply that they are just an outside terror group. No connection to Starfleet. OK.

 

[Tarek71]

Like I said in my first post, I wouldn't use anything that Sloan said as a basis for an argument but some keep doing exactly that even though there is a very good chance he is lying.

It is a grey area at best but some are so against S31 being a legitimate agency there is no talking to them so I leave them alone.

I had never seen these arguments about Section 31. I post my little ships and graphic designs to Fan Art, post about the latest series in that shows forum and sometimes comment on Future of Trek. On rare occasions I will post elsewhere, so I must have missed these. But having seen it in action, I think you're right. Further discussion seems like an exercise in futility.

 

[Gonzo]

I had never seen these arguments about Section 31. I post my little ships and graphic designs to Fan Art, post about the latest series in that shows forum and sometimes comment on Future of Trek. On rare occasions I will post elsewhere, so I must have missed these. But having seen it in action, I think you're right. Further discussion seems like an exercise in futility.

Just imagine what it will be like on the S31 forum when the series is finally released.

Some will be willing to give it a chance but others will just be there to hate watch it, which is stupid.

 

[fireproof78]

Just imagine what it will be like on the S31 forum when the series is finally released.

Some will be willing to give it a chance but others will just be there to hate watch it, which is stupid.

The S31 discussion will be interesting, and may also have me long for the days when Abrams Trek was treated as the worst thing ever.

 

[the Sisko]

I don't see so. To go to war would be to tell the public that for 15 years, Starfleet Security has been run by the Romulans... and that the romulans (excluding Mars) focused on hunting the universally hated synthetics. That's a security failure worth a few resignations in the starfleet hierachy but not starting a war with a minor power. Even the proof is limited to only Commodore Oh wearing a Romulan styled uniform (is it even official or a ZV-only look) on a Romulan styled (has it been seen before or is it ZV only) ship. It wouldn't take much to imagine a world where the Free State denies knowledge of Oh or the fleet, considering them faction gone rogue.

This information could bring about better relations... as the ZV, even if they did destroy Mars through infrastructure/android hacking, are response for billions of Romulans dead and a civilization in decline. It is more likely that the federation could get a buy-in for increased aid to the Romulans in exchange for help in eliminating the ZV.

 

[Sci]

The Federation Council more than disavows it. They say they explore Section 31's methods as illegal. Well, if you deplore their methods as illegal and they're part of the government and a third party is observing your behavior, then you'd rationally have to put their leaders under arrest. That they do not place the leaders of Section 31 under arrest for genocide while knowing that a foreign party is observing their behavior, rationally supports the conclusion that Section 31 is not part of the government and therefore not under the government's control. Otherwise, the observation of the foreign party would oblige the Federation government to have those Section 31 leaders arrested.

What you would not do is tell Ben Sisko that you can neither confirm nor deny it's existence.

Sure you would, if you're part of the illegal cabal and want to hide their infiltration of the government.

If they are a terrorist group, then name them, make arrests, raid facilities, launch strikes on their training centers etc. Instead they say they are part of Starfleet.

Starfleet never says that to either Sisko nor Odo.

Marcus says they are part of Starfleet.

So why did Marcus staff the Vengeance with non-Starfleet officers?

Congress can denounce, disavow illegal wiretapping, waterboarding and other tortures, conspiring to overthrow foreign governments, etc.

Congress would never tell a foreign national that they "disavow the CIA's methods." They could plausibly say they disavow the actions of certain individuals within the CIA, but they would never throw the agency itself under the bus like that, because the CIA is part of the U.S. government.

The Federation Council threw Section 31 under the bus. Because Section 31 is not part of the Federation government.

And yet, that is canonically what happened: A S31 character in 2375 refers to the original Starfleet Charter as authorizing Section 31, and then an S31 character in 2154 refers to a separate, older charter as authorizing S31.

And then your headcanon comes in to say that the Fed Starfleet Charter does not have that Section.

I never said the Federation Starfleet Charter lacks such a clause. I have made no claims whatsoever about what the Federation Starfleet Charter does or does not contain.

What I did say is an objective fact: There is no canonical evidence the Federation Starfleet Charter contains the clause cited in "Divergence" and alluded to in "Inquisition."

You made that up.

I made no such thing up, because I never claimed the Federation Starfleet Charter lacks such a clause. What I said was that there is no canonical evidence it possesses such a clause.

And it makes no difference whether you agree with their interpretation of the Section. It happens repeatedly in the real world. Sections, and Clauses are used to justify a wide range of new programs and agencies that are not specifically named in the original Constitution.

... you just don't understand how laws work, do you?

Specific executive agencies do not get established by a sovereign state's constitutions. Constitutions are the source of authority for the existence of the state and of its legislature, executive, and judiciary. Specific executive agencies are not established by constitutions, they are established by statutes that are passed by the legislatures those constitutions established. There are people who sometimes argue that a given agency's existence violates the constitution because supposedly the originating statute conflicts with the constitution in some manner, but that is an entirely separate question from whether or not that constitution itself establishes the agency (because, again, constitutions almost never establish specific executive agencies).

That is a terrible comparison, because the United States Constitution does not establish the existence of specific executive-branch agencies other than the Post Office.

It's a great comparison as that is exactly what the argument is. Those who think numerous Federal agencies, and programs are unconstitutional since these are not enumerated in the Constitution.

But that does not mean that those agencies' supporters are under the impression the Constitution established the agency.

Starfleet was created under the charter, and while you may disagree with the decision to create a free standing department within SF to handle Section 31 matters, it is better supported in the text than dozens of US Federal Agencies that are not even close to being enumerated.

See, here's where your comparison break down:

The Federation Starfleet Charter is not a constitution. It is a statute.

Here is how the legal comparison of Section 31 in the United Earth era to Social Security would break down:

Sovereign State: United Earth = United States of America
Sovereign State Constitution: United Earth Constitution = U.S. Constitution
Statute Passed by Legislature Establishing Executive Branch Agency: United Earth Starfleet Charter = Social Security Act
Specific Executive Branch Agency: United Earth Starfleet = Social Security Administration

Now, people can argue that the SSA should not exist because the Social Security Act somehow conflicts with the Constitution. But they cannot argue that no executive branch agency can exist without being established by the Constitution, because the Constitution explicitly says that it grants to the Congress the authority to establish executive branch agencies.

What someone cannot do is claim that an agency is established by a statute if that statute does not contain explicit language saying so. Barack Obama and Elizabeth Warren didn't just get to stand up in 2009 and say the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was established by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, because that act contained no such language. They had to have the agency established through explicit language in the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act a year later.

When Harris cites the United Earth Starfleet Charter to justify Section 31's existence, that is not the same thing as citing the United Earth Constitution. The UESF Charter is a statute, not a sovereign state constitution. Him citing that statute when it contains no language establishing an agency, would be the same thing as Elizabeth Warren in 2009 claiming the CFPB was established by the ARRA: No such language exists in the cited statute.

No you are misstating what the episode says. No such thing is established anywhere in it. That's your headcanon only.

Sloan explicitly says that Section 31 does not submit reports or answer to the Federation government.

Marcus says it is part of Starfleet.

Marcus staffs his Section 31 ship with non-Starfleet personnel and spends the entire movie lying to Kirk to trick him into starting a war with the Klingon Empire.

I have no idea who Sloans bosses are, whether inside or outside of Section 31, if any. Sloan obviously has no motive to tell Bashir the names of people who are in a position to shut Sloan down.

He is trying to recruit Bashir, and Bashir is specifically citing a lack of accountability and oversight as a reason not to join. It would be in Sloan's interests to tell Bashir that Section 31 is answerable to the Federation government if it is so answerable. He does not, and he fails in his objective of recruiting Bashir. Why would he not tell Bashir that they answer to the government if they do?

This information could bring about better relations... as the ZV, even if they did destroy Mars through infrastructure/android hacking, are response for billions of Romulans dead and a civilization in decline. It is more likely that the federation could get a buy-in for increased aid to the Romulans in exchange for help in eliminating the ZV.

That would make a lot of sense.

I would expect there to be a major investigation into Nedar and her activities undercover; into the major leaders of Starfleet, particular Security and Intelligence, to determine who knew what about "Oh" and when; into the key Starfleet Security officers employed during "Oh"'s tenure; into any prior offices "Oh" headed within Starfleet; and ultimately, there would probably be significant pressure on the persons who served as the C-in-C of Starfleet, the Chief of Starfleet Operations, the Chief of Starfleet Intelligence, and upon key members of the Federation Council -- anyone who served on the Federation Council's intelligence or counter-intelligence subcommittees -- and upon everyone who served as Federation President from 2386 through to 2399.

Clancy might make it out okay depending on how long she's been c-in-c. If she was CIC back in 2386, I expect the Federation President will demand her resignation.

 

[Tarek71]

Sure you would, if you're part of the illegal cabal and want to hide their infiltration of the government.

So the person or persons Sisko spoke to, know about Section 31, but want to hide that fact from Sisko? That's probably true. It is why they neither confirm nor deny. After all, Section 31 is a top secret part of Starfleet, as Marcus and Sloan say.

Starfleet never says that to either Sisko nor Odo.

The "they" in that sentence is Section 31. They (Sect 31) say they are part of Starfleet. Sloan says that, and Marcus does too.

So why did Marcus staff the Vengeance with non-Starfleet officers?

Section 31 members are members of Starfleet. Marcus and Sloan are clear about that. If those were Section 31 members, then every one of them is a member of Starfleet. A different uniform might cause someone who doesnt know about them to think they arent. Marcus could have used contractors as well, I suppose but Section 31 agents would be enough. But they have frequently been shown to wear a distinctive uniform.

Congress would never tell a foreign national that they "disavow the CIA's methods." They could plausibly say they disavow the actions of certain individuals within the CIA, but they would never throw the agency itself under the bus like that, because the CIA is part of the U.S. government.

Where did you get that from? Denunciations of CIA methods have been publicly made and meticulously detailed including in Congressional reports. Tell a foreign national? They told the whole world, with full knowledge of the damage that might do to the CIA's reputation. And to the reputation of the US Govt. These are the weird, reading between the lines, mental gymnastic arguments you come up with to somehow claim it is not part of the govt, when it plainly is.

I never said the Federation Starfleet Charter lacks such a clause. I have made no claims whatsoever about what the Federation Starfleet Charter does or does not contain.

Then we cannot say one way or the other whether Section 31 remains authorized under it. Judging from no one ever saying there is a difference, and Marcus and Sloan saying that it is part of Starfleet, it seems likely that it is there. Maybe not, but you cannot say you know it is not still in force.

... you just don't understand how laws work, do you?

I dont think you understand how laws or the Constitution works. The argument is that they are not enumerated in the Constitution, therefore the Executive and Legislative branches have no constitutional authority to create agencies like the SSA thru legislation. Unfortunately for Libertarians and many Conservatives, the SCOTUS has not accepted their reading of the Constitution. The broader reading of "the General Welfare" prevails. Sci, these are basics to understanding legal and constitutional arguments across the ideological spectrum.

But that does not mean that those agencies' supporters are under the impression the Constitution established the agency.

Of course not. They mean that that Section or Clause authorizes it's creation. If anything Section 31 has better support in the wording of the Charter than the Social Security Administration has in the General Welfare clause. Which is even broader and been used to defend the constitutionality of a very wide range of policies and agencies.

See, here's where your comparison break down:

It does not break down. as explained above.

Sloan explicitly says that Section 31 does not submit reports or answer to the Federation government.

Sloan explicitly says they are part of Starfleet. You want to go by Sloans words, except when he says it is part of Starfleet. He says they dont submit reports or get approval for specific operations. You want to twist any further comment from him as supporting what nothing actually supports, and which contradicts what he plainly and expressly states: That it is a part of Starfleet.

He is trying to recruit Bashir, and Bashir is specifically citing a lack of accountability and oversight as a reason not to join. It would be in Sloan's interests to tell Bashir that Section 31 is answerable to the Federation government if it is so answerable. He does not, and he fails in his objective of recruiting Bashir. Why would he not tell Bashir that they answer to the government if they do?

Sloan has absolutely no motive to tell Bashir who has the ability to shut Sloan down. He's selling Bashir on the opportunity to save far, far more lives than he ever has as a Dr. We dont know who Sloans bosses are, either inside or outside of Section 31. If there is a Commodore Oh -like figure who is senior to Sloan within or outside of Sect 31, I am sure that Sloan would not be authorized to give out her name, even if he had a motive to, and he has no such motive. If there are Admirals who, like Cornwell and Marcus, do work with Sect 31, who know Sloan, know about the Founder virus, etc, Sloan wouldnt give their names either, and they would almost certainly deny it if Bashir or Sisko asked. Or they would give Sisko the "we'll look into it" BS.

Bashir is who says they answer to no one. Sloan didnt say that in that coversation. He doesnt correct that impression either. He says they dont need approval for specific operations. That he doesnt mind bending the rules. But if there were an Oh/Marcus/Cornwell-like figure you are saying that Sloan would either be authorized, or judge it wise, to give that name out to people who havent even agreed to join yet? That does not seem reasonable.

If there is a Sect 31 show that airs, maybe we will learn more. I am sure we will. I have no idea what TPTB have planned for it. But unless and until there is new information, I will let this and the previous posts stand as is and as my final word on this.