Wouldn't recent events lead to full war between Fed and Romulan Free State?

[Charles Phipps]

Honestly, I think there's contradictory evidence both ways and different writers had different ideas for it. One had it as SPECTRE and the other had it as Project: Treadstone and the other had it full-on as the CIA.

But that's no fun an answer.

I do think it means we have to pick what "our" answer is.

My preferred take? Section 31 is a part of Starfleet but it's only known to Flag officers and above and has a lot of black budget (easy enough with replicators and a post scarcity economy) as well as very little oversight. It often breaks the Federation's laws in the pursuit of its ends and frequently goes above and beyond its mandate but someone, somewhere signs off on things like the Founder plague despite genocide being the ultimate no-no.

 

[fireproof78]

I think I am just a little taken aback by the ....naivete? I am hearing about how it cant be the govt if it is secret. It cannot be the govt without vigorous oversight. It cannot be the govt if they undertake surveillance of govt officials and ministers. Really? Since when? The histories of the CIA, FBI, Gestapo, Stasi, KGB and many others just do not bear this out.

Because Star Trek.

 

[cooleddie74]

My preferred take? Section 31 is a part of Starfleet but it's only known to Flag officers and above and has a lot of black budget (easy enough with replicators and a post scarcity economy) as well as very little oversight. It often breaks the Federation's laws in the pursuit of its ends and frequently goes above and beyond its mandate but someone, somewhere signs off on things like the Founder plague despite genocide being the ultimate no-no.

See, now THAT makes sense. But that Section 31 is a formal agency known to general politicians inside the Federation but just not talked about? That doesn't wash.

 

[Charles Phipps]

See, now THAT makes sense. But that Section 31 is a formal agency known to general politicians inside the Federation but just not talked about? That doesn't wash.

Well clearly Sisko and Bashir have no idea it exists so I doubt the Federation Council does too unless they are on their equivalent of the Senate Security Appropriations Committee. In real life, whole chunks of money are approved for projects that are never actually described. While Star Trek should be above that, the whole point of S31 is that it's where the Federation has slipped.

They're an atavism of an older time but kept alive because the Trekverse is dangerous.

Senator: What is Section 31?

Admiral: Oh, it's a department of a department dealing with special circumstances.

Senator: What does it do?

Admiral: If everything goes right, nothing.

Senator: Nothing?

Admiral: Nothing at all.

Senator: And if something goes wrong?

Admiral: Then whatever it needs to.

 

[cooleddie74]

"You don't think a toilet seat costs $700, do you?"

 

[Charles Phipps]

I wonder if the Tal Shiar will dismiss, "And the mythological cult of anti-synths blew up our evacuation fleet" as Federation propaganda.

Mind you, the Romulans are not looking good in this storyline at all. Apparently there's widespread anger and we have people like Nero wanting to destroy Vulcan as well as Earth for what happened. However, the Federation DID plan to evacuate millions and then one of their planets was blown up along with the fleet. I'm sorry but that's some ridiculous sour grapes there.

It'd be barely justifiable if they didn't plan ANY evacuation.

 

[Sci]

There is no evidence offered in any posts against it. Not even a little.

Oh for Christ's sake.

In "Inquisition," Sloan claims Section 31 is authorized by the "original Starfleet Charter." He does not say the Starfleet Charter -- he says "the original Starfleet Charter."

Then, in ENT's "Divergence," we actually are told which Starfleet Charter and what it says. Harris cites Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter. The portion he cites does not authorize the existence of an autonomous agency; rather, it allows for leeway for Starlfeet officers in times of crisis.

Furthermore, "Inquisition" makes it very clear that nobody in the Federation government has any power whatsoever over Section 31. They do not report to anyone and do not take orders from anyone. They do not answer to the President, and we learn in "Extreme Measures" that they spy on the President.

This is canon.

Now, how can Section 31 be a legitimate government agency when they cite a charter that is no longer in effect, and when the portion of that charter does not authorize the thing they claim it authorizes, and when they spy on the head of government, and when they take no orders from the government nor answer to the government in any way?

All of these things are canonical facts. How can it be a government agency when all of these things are true?

Kirk is not shocked to learn that a Federation facility is actually used by Section 31, because it is a govt department.

Kelvin!Kirk is being lied to about the nature of Section 31 when Marcus introduces it to him.

So yes, if I were President, I would want to know from Section 31 how they let Oh slip thru the background checks.

If you were the President, Section 31 wouldn't take your calls -- assuming they let you live.

It's ALSO the Federation Charter not Earth Starfleet charter that has Section 31. They just have the exact same placement.

No. The Federation Charter is never canonically cited as authorizing Section 31. Only the "original Starfleet Charter" in "Inquisition," which we learn in "Divergence" mean the (defunct in the 24th Century) United Earth Starfleet Charter.

 

[Charles Phipps]

That's making a lot of assumptions that the Federation Starfleet Charter doesn't contain the same provision. All Sloane's statement goes back to saying is, "Our organization is old."

Not that it is rogue.

Also, again, we're now in retcon time where better or worse it's OBVIOUSLY operating with full approval in the current canon series.

 

[Tarek71]

Sci,

No. It is a govt agency. Thats consistent in every series and film where they appear. You invented the idea that Kirk is "lied to" about Section 31 when nothing onscreen supports that. Kirk doesnt say "Section 31, WTF is that?". There is no scene where this occurs. You made that up. That is head canon. No such discussion about the place, legality or legitimacy of Section 31 occurs in any scene. Why does Kirk not bat an eye? Because he knows what it is. It's a Govt agency.

There is no basis for saying Sloan meant the Earth Starfleet and that the Federation Starfleet Charter does not contain a similar provision. You made that up. That is head canon. No episode or film says this. Oh, the Fed Starfleet Charter has no such provision? You invented that.

Taking a provision, like "for the General Welfare" in the US Constitution to authorize Social Security or a National Healthcare system is called BS by conservatives. They use your reasoning. Nevertheless, the argument is made. In this case, the Govt agency exists. It is not understood or stated in that ENT episode or any other that Section 31 cannot therefore be an actual Govt agency. That was said only here, by you. It is not onscreen. Soc Sec Admin is a govt organization no matter how groundless conservatives think the Constitutional justification of it might be.

How many times do you have to be told about the actual history of spying and surveillance of govt ministers and officials BY govt agencies to get that that has no bearing whatsoever on whether the agency in question is in fact, part of the govt? Like all the other talking points youve given, they collapse immediately.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Eh, I think there's evidence for both sides.

It's just retconned/confirmed as an agency by the newer material.

 

[Gonzo]

Oh dear one week without a new episode and the forum has already devolved back down to a S31 discussion.

The mods must be so full of joy at the sight.

The top brass in Starfleet know about S31 and it makes them uncomfortable but there is a pill for that so its ok.

No they wont do anything to stop them because they are useful and do the jobs others are not willing or able to do.

Its just black ops, plausible deniability, don't ask, don't tell and all that, its probable that they have a proper reporting structure within S31 only and a barely visible dotted line to some department in Starfleet or the Federation even if it is only for funding.

Think of them as external nameless Consultants that work alongside the Admirals as and when needed.

None of you should be quoting what Sloan said as proof of anything, he has a tendency to tell fibs, if he did have a boss do you really think he would tell Bashir all about it.

No utopian rainbows where harmed in the creation of this post.

 

[The Old Mixer]

the CIA, FBI, Gestapo, Stasi, KGB and many others

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[cooleddie74]

I hope you passed the audition!

 

[The Wormhole]

You invented the idea that Kirk is "lied to" about Section 31 when nothing onscreen supports that. Kirk doesnt say "Section 31, WTF is that?". There is no scene where this occurs. You made that up. That is head canon. No such discussion about the place, legality or legitimacy of Section 31 occurs in any scene. Why does Kirk not bat an eye? Because he knows what it is. It's a Govt agency.

Quite the contrary, it does not appear Kirk knew about Section 31 prior to Marcus telling him about it. Indeed, here's the line from STID here:

MARCUS: All-out war with the Klingons is inevitable, Mister Kirk. If you ask me, it's already begun. Since we first learned of their existence, the Klingon Empire has conquered and occupied
two planets that we know of and fired on our ships half a dozen times. They are coming our way. London was not an archive. it was a top-secret branch of Starfleet designated Section 31. They were developing defence technology and training our officers to gather intelligence on the Klingons and any other potential enemy who means to do us harm. Harrison was one of our top agents.

It's not public knowledge that the Kelvin Archive is a Section 31 facility, indeed Marcus even calls Section 31 itself in this very quote top secret, which is why Kirk doesn't go all "Section 31, WTF is that?"

 

[Yistaan]

To get this back marginally on the original topic of Oh and how her actions affect Romulan-Federation relations, what if she was also a member of Section 31? A member of the Zhat Vash, Tal Shiar, and Section 31 all at the same time! We know that Koval was a member of both Section 31 and the Tal Shiar apparently: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Koval . Since he was Tal Shiar chairman, he'd also have known about the Zhat Vash?

Also, supposedly Koval murdered Fujisaki, deputy chair of Starfleet Intelligence... https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Fujisaki . Is this when he had Oh installed into Starfleet Intelligence?

 

[The Wormhole]

To get this back marginally on the original topic of Oh and how her actions affect Romulan-Federation relations, what if she was also a member of Section 31? A member of the Zhat Vash, Tal Shiar, and Section 31 all at the same time! We know that Koval was a member of both Section 31 and the Tal Shiar apparently: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Koval . Since he was Tal Shiar chairman, he'd also have known about the Zhat Vash?

Also, supposedly Koval murdered Fujisaki, deputy chair of Starfleet Intelligence... https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Fujisaki . Is this when he had Oh installed into Starfleet Intelligence?

Koval was a double agent working for the Federation's better interests. Since Oh was working for Romulan interests, if Section 31 were aware of her they would almost likely have stepped in and done something about her, not allowed her to flourish as the head of Starfleet Security and certainly not have allowed her to join. And the destruction of Mars does not serve Federation interests in anyway, so there's no reason to believe they'd be complicit in that. And Section 31 is run by an artificial intelligence, so if Oh were aware of them, they'd be her target too. She wouldn't be joining them.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh dear one week without a new episode and the forum has already devolved back down to a S31 discussion.

The mods must be so full of joy at the sight.

The top brass in Starfleet know about S31 and it makes them uncomfortable but there is a pill for that so its ok.

No they wont do anything to stop them because they are useful and do the jobs others are not willing or able to do.

Its just black ops, plausible deniability, don't ask, don't tell and all that, its probable that they have a proper reporting structure within S31 only and a barely visible dotted line to some department in Starfleet or the Federation even if it is only for funding.

Think of them as external nameless Consultants that work alongside the Admirals as and when needed.

None of you should be quoting what Sloan said as proof of anything, he has a tendency to tell fibs, if he did have a boss do you really think he would tell Bashir all about it.

No utopian rainbows where harmed in the creation of this post.

I think of them like the Men In Black in a way. I don't think they are as powerful as they brag about, and their authority depends greatly on what they can get away with.

 

[Yistaan]

Koval was a double agent working for the Federation's better interests. Since Oh was working for Romulan interests, if Section 31 were aware of her they would almost likely have stepped in and done something about her, not allowed her to flourish as the head of Starfleet Security and certainly not have allowed her to join. And the destruction of Mars does not serve Federation interests in anyway, so there's no reason to believe they'd be complicit in that. And Section 31 is run by an artificial intelligence, so if Oh were aware of them, they'd be her target too. She wouldn't be joining them.

For all we know Oh hid her Zhat Vash loyalties even from Koval. Maybe she joined them after she was installed? Maybe she was actually part of Koval's group and on the surface pretended to be pro-Federation. Even Section 31 can be fooled, despite what we see on the show they don't know everything.

Section 31 stopped being run by an artificial intelligence a century before Koval and Oh's time.

 

[Tarek71]

Quite the contrary, it does not appear Kirk knew about Section 31 prior to Marcus telling him about it. Indeed, here's the line from STID here:

It's not public knowledge that the Kelvin Archive is a Section 31 facility, indeed Marcus even calls Section 31 itself in this very quote top secret, which is why Kirk doesn't go all "Section 31, WTF is that?"

Yes, a top secret branch of Starfleet. That uses Starfleet facilities and a Starfleet Admiral is aware of this. What Kirk knew isn't established. Either he knew this already or, as with Odo, it came as no surprise to him that something like that existed.

At some point we can just have a gen Trek thread about them, but I don't think there is much more to say about it.

 

[Gonzo]

Just imagine what the sub-forum for the S31 show is going to be like when it arrives.

I bet all the mods are fighting over who will get to moderate that little bundle of joy.

I have an idea, why not put it to the ordinary forum members in a vote.

Now that I think about it, how are such things decided, is it:

Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock?
Pin the tail on the Sub-Forum?
Does everyone draw straws?
Pistols at 10 paces?
Russian Roulette?

Or is it such a serious matter that the big guns have to be brought out:

Snap?
Kerplunk?
Buckaroo?
Operation?

Just asking for a friend.