Would you have helped out?

[ed629]

ed629, the more of your posts I read, the more I think you are searching for ways to justify your actions. You keep pointing out that you have not seen an aide with him, so why should you have to help, etc., etc. Then it advanced to they should take care of themselves or have someone who is paid to help, why should anyone have to help, etc.

At some point, human beings should recognize that the other person is also a human being, deserving of respect, care and dignity. My faith teaches me to go the extra mile, put myself in their shoes, give sacrificially to help others and more. Since I do care about others more than myself, I can help someone less fortunate.

Unfortunately, just because someone's school is full of selfish, "me first, screw you" punks who would never think of helping someone else does not mean they are right. It just means they are selfish little b*stards who would completely change their minds if the situation were reversed.

I have no obligation to help him, or should be expected to, and where does dignity begin or end? Helping them with a jacket or putting them on a toilet? Less fortunate does not mean one should do something they don't want to. If that makes me a selfish bastard so be it, I am not going to wipe a persons ass or place them on a toilet because it would make less selfish or less of a bastard. There are different lines that people will not cross, and this is one I will not.

 

[Amaris]

So you would piss on yourself instead of ask for help?

Yes I would, I don't think anyone who is a stranger should be put in such a situation. If I were to go somewhere without considering that such a thing could happen I would not ask much less expect a person to help with such a thing or even make them uncomfortable. If you don't believe me, then don't believe me. The poster who posted about oneupmanship was correct, it seems like people are trying to be better than others. Who would really want to deal with another person's piss or shit? I don't, and never will, does than make me a bad person, no it doesn't. It only makes me human, along with anyone else who wouldn't help.

A few months ago, I strained my back severely, and went to school anyway. I had my backpack with me, with a laptop, 2 heavy books, 2 notebooks and a waterbottle. My class got out and I had to walk 1/3 of a mile to my car. I never once considered asking for help. Why? Because I made a choice and why was it someone else's obligation to help me out. It took me 20 minutes to make a walk that I could normally do in about 5-6 minutes. I even had a few people ask me if I was ok, and 1 offered to help. I told him no thanks, it was my choice to go, my choice to put myself in that situation and there was no reason for someone to help me because of that. I should of stayed home, and I knew it. I made a choice and it was mine to make, and it was my responsibility to deal with that choice.

So you would pee on yourself instead of ask for help? That's a pride issue, and it can get you killed when you have to depend upon others, even occasionally.

 

[Miss Chicken]

I think it would be a lot worse to have to be near to someone who had peed or shitted themselves than to have to help them to the toilet.

As I said previously - when I was 17 I got the job in the nursing home. From the very first day on the job I had to put old women onto the commode and take them off again. Sometimes I had to wipe their bottoms. I had no training whatsoever. I simply learnt as I went along.

 

[ed629]

So you would piss on yourself instead of ask for help?

Yes I would, I don't think anyone who is a stranger should be put in such a situation. If I were to go somewhere without considering that such a thing could happen I would not ask much less expect a person to help with such a thing or even make them uncomfortable. If you don't believe me, then don't believe me. The poster who posted about oneupmanship was correct, it seems like people are trying to be better than others. Who would really want to deal with another person's piss or shit? I don't, and never will, does than make me a bad person, no it doesn't. It only makes me human, along with anyone else who wouldn't help.

A few months ago, I strained my back severely, and went to school anyway. I had my backpack with me, with a laptop, 2 heavy books, 2 notebooks and a waterbottle. My class got out and I had to walk 1/3 of a mile to my car. I never once considered asking for help. Why? Because I made a choice and why was it someone else's obligation to help me out. It took me 20 minutes to make a walk that I could normally do in about 5-6 minutes. I even had a few people ask me if I was ok, and 1 offered to help. I told him no thanks, it was my choice to go, my choice to put myself in that situation and there was no reason for someone to help me because of that. I should of stayed home, and I knew it. I made a choice and it was mine to make, and it was my responsibility to deal with that choice.

So you would pee on yourself instead of ask for help? That's a pride issue, and it can get you killed when you have to depend upon others, even occasionally.

Yes, and if it kills me it kills me, and if it's one thing I've learned. Depending on others can cause more problems than not. Ask the two students who lost their scholarships when they didn't do their parts of group projects, lost the grades, failed the class and lost their scholarships because I refused to do their work for them. I'd rather someone shit themselves than for me to resent them later on for doing something I didn't want to do, in this case help them in the restroom or as you asked, I'd rather piss myself than ask for help and lose my pride and at the same time make someone feel obligated to do something they didn't want to or expect to.

 

[Amaris]

Yes I would, I don't think anyone who is a stranger should be put in such a situation. If I were to go somewhere without considering that such a thing could happen I would not ask much less expect a person to help with such a thing or even make them uncomfortable. If you don't believe me, then don't believe me. The poster who posted about oneupmanship was correct, it seems like people are trying to be better than others. Who would really want to deal with another person's piss or shit? I don't, and never will, does than make me a bad person, no it doesn't. It only makes me human, along with anyone else who wouldn't help.

A few months ago, I strained my back severely, and went to school anyway. I had my backpack with me, with a laptop, 2 heavy books, 2 notebooks and a waterbottle. My class got out and I had to walk 1/3 of a mile to my car. I never once considered asking for help. Why? Because I made a choice and why was it someone else's obligation to help me out. It took me 20 minutes to make a walk that I could normally do in about 5-6 minutes. I even had a few people ask me if I was ok, and 1 offered to help. I told him no thanks, it was my choice to go, my choice to put myself in that situation and there was no reason for someone to help me because of that. I should of stayed home, and I knew it. I made a choice and it was mine to make, and it was my responsibility to deal with that choice.

So you would pee on yourself instead of ask for help? That's a pride issue, and it can get you killed when you have to depend upon others, even occasionally.

Yes, and if it kills me it kills me, and if it's one thing I've learned. Depending on others can cause more problems than not. Ask the two students who lost their scholarships when they didn't do their parts of group projects, lost the grades, failed the class and lost their scholarships because I refused to do their work for them. I'd rather someone shit themselves than for me to resent them later on for doing something I didn't want to do, in this case help them in the restroom or as you asked, I'd rather piss myself than ask for help and lose my pride and at the same time make someone feel obligated to do something they didn't want to or expect to.

This is something that apparently goes beyond helping someone go to the restroom.

 

[ed629]

So you would pee on yourself instead of ask for help? That's a pride issue, and it can get you killed when you have to depend upon others, even occasionally.

Yes, and if it kills me it kills me, and if it's one thing I've learned. Depending on others can cause more problems than not. Ask the two students who lost their scholarships when they didn't do their parts of group projects, lost the grades, failed the class and lost their scholarships because I refused to do their work for them. I'd rather someone shit themselves than for me to resent them later on for doing something I didn't want to do, in this case help them in the restroom or as you asked, I'd rather piss myself than ask for help and lose my pride and at the same time make someone feel obligated to do something they didn't want to or expect to.

This is something that apparently goes beyond helping someone go to the restroom.

You are so right... deeper issues than not wanting to wipe a person's ass or placing them on a toilet. Nope, that's it, I didn't want to wipe or possibly wipe his ass because I refuse to do that for a complete fucking stranger. If he shit or pissed himself, not my problem... unless he already did and wanted help with that, either way not happening.

 

[Amaris]

Yes, and if it kills me it kills me, and if it's one thing I've learned. Depending on others can cause more problems than not. Ask the two students who lost their scholarships when they didn't do their parts of group projects, lost the grades, failed the class and lost their scholarships because I refused to do their work for them. I'd rather someone shit themselves than for me to resent them later on for doing something I didn't want to do, in this case help them in the restroom or as you asked, I'd rather piss myself than ask for help and lose my pride and at the same time make someone feel obligated to do something they didn't want to or expect to.

This is something that apparently goes beyond helping someone go to the restroom.

You are so right... deeper issues than not wanting to wipe a person's ass or placing them on a toilet. Nope, that's it, I didn't want to wipe or possibly wipe his ass because I refuse to do that for a complete fucking stranger. If he shit or pissed himself, not my problem... unless he already did and wanted help with that, either way not happening.

Okay.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'd rather piss myself than ask for help and lose my pride and at the same time make someone feel obligated to do something they didn't want to or expect to.

So you would have more pride sitting soaked in piss, unhelped?

That's just a ridiculous picture.

 

[Ghost07]

I'll pray fpr you, ed629, that you never have a stroke or a heart attack, and that you die young so you won't make so much work for the Aides at whatever nursing home you end up at, considering that your family won't want you around stinking up their homes.

I feel so sorry for you.


ETA: and besides, instead of all this rationalization, why couldn't you just say, "I'm not competent enough to help you, let me call someone who is." then call whatever medical help is in a college.

 

[TerokNor]

*scratches head* I think asking someone for help, in a situation were you truly cannot help yourself is a great and healthy competence to have. It shows that you are able to look at yourself, that you know your strenghes and weaknesses and that you know when something just is over your head.
It also shows trust and value towards others, that they are able to do something you can´t, that one can put efforts together to make things happen and that one can learn from each other.
It also brings with it empathy, because you can imagine how someone else might feel, in a certain situation and you want to help them therefore.
This doesn´t mean one should always as a first thing ask for help without putting any effort in oneself, but there just are situations where one needs help, everyone of us, different situation, but they come now and then on the walk of life.
I truly hope, the ones here who cannot ask for help or help another still get the possibility to learn it.
It makes life warmer in a way, in my opinion at least.

TerokNor

 

[RJDiogenes]

God, there are some fuckin' dumb people around here.

Okay, you can make your point without going down that road. Let's not get into personal attacks, please.

No, no, really I can't. It offends me greatly anytime someone makes any comment or insinuation that a person who is unable to walk might be less than a person or might have something wrong with their mind. So, yes, RJ, I will go there if I have to.

Very little will push me to this point in civilized discourse. This is where it goes to far.

Fair enough; I'm just trying to keep you out of trouble. I sympathize with your feelings, but you'll get a Warning just like anyone else if it comes to that.

 

[Cheapjack]

I'd have just let him crap his pants and then called the police and had him arrested for making a mess everywhere.

Then, I'd have made him clean it up, as a punishment.

With his bare hands.

Cheapjack, if you don't have anything productive to add to the discussion, you don't have to say anything. Saying this, especially when so many posters here are living with disabilities themselves or family members with disabilities, is rude and out of line (and would be regardless of that). Please don't do it again.

I had a cousin with spina bifida and I regularly push wheelchair users through my town. I helped my grandfather who had a stroke go to the toilet. I did it in a pub the other year, and the toilet wouldn't flush either.

It would be embarrasiing to wipe and hold, but bearable, as long as I washed my hands thoroughly afterard. I might be a liittle bit rough in this, with a man. But neat and thorough.

You might even have to help a woman give birth, and that woiuld be such a responsibilty, as you could get the blame if she or the child died. Let alone the crying out, and carrying on, and being stuick between being supportive and empathic and strong and encouraging. I might waver between tears and cold practicality a bit. And settle on strength. And, a lot of women would blame you for the pain, even if it wasn't you who put it in there. That's OK.

Woth it, though.

 

[Franklin]

For me, it comes down to what would happen if you were the one in the position of the person in need. Suppose your nurse/caregiver has gone off to do something, and you have a sudden need to go to the bathroom, and you know you can't get into a restroom by yourself. What do you do?

Not to be picking on you specifically, J. Allen, but this is an example of how so many of us are creating a perfect storm scenario, here. And it's almost becoming a game of oneupsmanship. What if this? And, what if that? What if he had no arms? What if he only had to pee? What if he had to poop? What if he needed to be wiped? What if he messed on himself in the bathroom? What if he messed on you while helping him? What if it were you in that situation and you had to go?

I think the point some of us are making is that for whatever reason, there comes a point where a boundary is reached that we can't or won't cross. That some of us reach our limit, or believe we've done all we should do before someone else does not necessarily mean we are in a morally inferior position.

I respect the position of those who would do more than me. I admire the selflessness and their willingness to take a risk -- because that's what the untrained person is doing, after all. But, I also respect the positions of those with valid reasons for doing less. The point is, there is no one correct answer, here. There is no moral high ground.

If a person walked up to another person and said, "I'm having a heart attack, please get help," and the person refused to find help, that is anti-social and immoral. In comparison, being uncomfortable about saying yes to aiding a stranger on the toilet is not, to me.

Here's a couple what ifs you never mentioned...What if you asked him if he could wait long enough for you to find him qualified help for his needs? What if you asked him how much help he needed? What if you asked him why is there no Aide with you?

Could it be he got lost and couldn't FIND the bathroom or the Nurse's Office or wherever they stash the Aides at this school? What kind of school is it...High School? College? A high school should have a Nurse's office somewhere, and don't Colleges have something equivilant?

As a faculty member, I did say I'd get him to the toilet, and even onto the toilet before I went to find more qualified help. He shouldn't be left in the hallway to mess himself. But, I've also explained my point of view for why I should go only so far.

On the way to the toilet, I would ask him why he has no escort. I would ask him if this happened before. After it was over I would ask the administration a lot of questions, too.
Maybe this was an isolated incident. But if a person at a school/university who is apparently so disabled he can't go to the bathroom himself (to whatever degree he needs help) and must rely on strangers for aid, that's horrible. If the person had an aide, there would be no excuse for that person to be away from him. If that aide had anything to do, do it while the student is in class. In between classes is when the aide is needed most.

It's the school that should be embarrassed for putting anyone in this situation. The helper, or the person needing help.

 

[Cheapjack]

If he asked, he obviously doesn't mind being touched.

Practically, it's better to have it going down the toilet, than all over the floor.

It's only dog mess that makes me gag. Human mess is alright as long as you get it cleaned up quick. Female excretae is a bit offputting, for a man, and I think male for a woman. So what, everybody does it.

 

[Kirby]

Re: Would you of helped out?

So I would say yes mainly out of guilt from some 30 years ago.
We had a kid back in elementary school who wa in a wheelchair and needed help in the bathroom. Everyone feared getting cornered by him in the bathroom and being required to help. I ended up having to help him one time, and was really uncomfortable with it, but I also managed to sneak out before he could ask me at least a couple of times.
The poor guy just needed to go to the bathroom, something that we all take for granted. I'll be grateful if I never have to be in his situation.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Would you of helped out?

So I would say yes mainly out of guilt from some 30 years ago.
We had a kid back in elementary school who wa in a wheelchair and needed help in the bathroom. Everyone feared getting cornered by him in the bathroom and being required to help. I ended up having to help him one time, and was really uncomfortable with it, but I also managed to sneak out before he could ask me at least a couple of times.
The poor guy just needed to go to the bathroom, something that we all take for granted. I'll be grateful if I never have to be in his situation.

At least these days, in public schools at all levels, there are supposed to be special-ed teachers or aides to help out in such situations. These people are trained for such things, and it is part of their assigned duties. They know which students require aid, what their schedules are, and the students know to have one of the people contacted if they need help. In terms of toilet aid, this may sound gross, but students who require aid usually also wear diapers in case there is an accident. Changing these diapers is also part of the aide's duties.
Aides can't be everywhere at once, but they can be summoned. As someone said in a post way above, most teachers in the hallways of public schools these days have walkie-talkies. The student can approach a teacher, state his need, and the teacher can summon proper help.

This is what leads me to believe the OP's incident is at a university. It's more problematic in that situation. Still, most of the time, an escort of some kind can be provided to the student depending on needs. This student should not be going around campus alone if he cannot see to his toilet needs on his own. Maybe he's not aware there is (which would be odd), but support is certainly out there.

 

[Gil T.Azell]

If your school has a nurse I'd of gone that route.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

*scratches head* I think asking someone for help, in a situation were you truly cannot help yourself is a great and healthy competence to have. It shows that you are able to look at yourself, that you know your strenghes and weaknesses and that you know when something just is over your head.
It also shows trust and value towards others, that they are able to do something you can´t, that one can put efforts together to make things happen and that one can learn from each other.
It also brings with it empathy, because you can imagine how someone else might feel, in a certain situation and you want to help them therefore.
This doesn´t mean one should always as a first thing ask for help without putting any effort in oneself, but there just are situations where one needs help, everyone of us, different situation, but they come now and then on the walk of life.
I truly hope, the ones here who cannot ask for help or help another still get the possibility to learn it.
It makes life warmer in a way, in my opinion at least.

TerokNor

Very well said.

Even in the business world, a good manager is one who is not too proud to ask for help when he or she needs it, who puts results ahead of his or her own pride.

 

[ed629]

I'll pray fpr you, ed629, that you never have a stroke or a heart attack, and that you die young so you won't make so much work for the Aides at whatever nursing home you end up at, considering that your family won't want you around stinking up their homes.

I feel so sorry for you.


ETA: and besides, instead of all this rationalization, why couldn't you just say, "I'm not competent enough to help you, let me call someone who is." then call whatever medical help is in a college.

Don't feel sorry for me, I would rather be dead than to be in nursing home where I can't do anything for myself. That is something I don't want to experience.

I don't have any idea where the office or location for medical help or assistance for students who are disabled is. If anyone should know, it would be the disabled students, and they should be the ones that should be the ones getting the assistance for themselves if this is something that is occurring, not depending on other students who are not trained or qualified, or even be expected to help out in the restroom.

This is what leads me to believe the OP's incident is at a university. It's more problematic in that situation. Still, most of the time, an escort of some kind can be provided to the student depending on needs. This student should not be going around campus alone if he cannot see to his toilet needs on his own. Maybe he's not aware there is (which would be odd), but support is certainly out there.

It is a university, and I do find it odd that he would not know of support he really seems to need. And you are right, he should not be going around alone if he finds himself in these positions.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Don't feel sorry for me, I would rather be dead than to be in nursing home where I can't do anything for myself. That is something I don't want to experience.

I sure hope you don't think that people who suffer traumatic brain injuries or spinal injuries, and the like, should just be left to die. There is, believe it or not, FAR more to life than physical ability or disability.