Would you have helped out?

[Maestro]

Walk a mile in my shoes, you'll get why I'm upset.

 

[scotpens]

Walk a mile in my shoes, you'll get why I'm upset.

Gladly. Then you’ll be a mile away -- and I’ll have your shoes!

(Okay, it’s old, but it’s still funny.)

 

[Zulu Romeo]

Walk a mile in my shoes, you'll get why I'm upset.

Gladly. Then you’ll be a mile away -- and I’ll have your shoes!

(Okay, it’s old, but it’s still funny.)

And then he'll be even more upset.

 

[Maestro]

Perhaps, but my wife would be happy that I had at least one fewer pair of shoes crowding the closet!

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I'd have just let him crap his pants and then called the police and had him arrested for making a mess everywhere.

Then, I'd have made him clean it up, as a punishment.

With his bare hands.

Cheapjack, if you don't have anything productive to add to the discussion, you don't have to say anything. Saying this, especially when so many posters here are living with disabilities themselves or family members with disabilities, is rude and out of line (and would be regardless of that). Please don't do it again.

 

[Franklin]

I don't think everyone saying, "No," with a good reason, or helping to a point or with reservations should necessarily be criticized as insensitive toward the disabled or anything else. Note that most everyone who has said, "Yes," here has had experience in the area. Those without it might not know what a predicament they could find themselves in.

I should say I speak from some experience in this area. I have an 89 year-old father-in-law who gets around with a walker and is semi-independent. He is in assisted living, and my wife and I have been told many times about the right way and the wrong way to aid him when he needs it in public. Including the bathroom.
And yes, even with my father-in-law, it is a bit of an odd situation for both of us. I think it would have to be even more awkward for strangers. Sorry, I just think it would have to be.
By the way, my father-in-law is fiercely independent-minded, sharp, and proud. He wears an adult diaper, and to be blunt, he'd probably be extreme on the other side and go on himself before asking a stranger for help. In other words, all kinds of people have all different kinds of points of view about what is proper on both sides of this situation.

And, I still want to know how a student who apparently can't go to the bathroom by himself was left alone to fend for himself at a school (or on a campus, whichever it was).

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Re: Would you of helped out?

By the way, why is "have" always replaced with "of" for so many people? Is it a British thing?

Probably because people hear words that they don't recognize as contractions (would've = would have, should've = should have). The 've sounds pretty much like of.

 

[ed629]

I don't think everyone saying, "No," with a good reason, or helping to a point or with reservations should necessarily be criticized as insensitive toward the disabled or anything else. Note that most everyone who has said, "Yes," here has had experience in the area. Those without it might not know what a predicament they could find themselves in.

I should say I speak from some experience in this area. I have an 89 year-old father-in-law who gets around with a walker and is semi-independent. He is in assisted living, and my wife and I have been told many times about the right way and the wrong way to aid him when he needs it in public. Including the bathroom.
And yes, even with my father-in-law, it is a bit of an odd situation for both of us. I think it would have to be even more awkward for strangers. Sorry, I just think it would have to be.
By the way, my father-in-law is fiercely independent-minded, sharp, and proud. He wears an adult diaper, and to be blunt, he'd probably be extreme on the other side and go on himself before asking a stranger for help. In other words, all kinds of people have all different kinds of points of view about what is proper on both sides of this situation.

And, I still want to know how a student who apparently can't go to the bathroom by himself was left alone to fend for himself at a school (or on a campus, whichever it was).

I'm surprised by the number of people that said yes, I asked the same thing to several people in my classes or that I know at the school, almost all them said no, they wouldn't help. So I tend to think the same thing, that those who said yes have had experience in this type of thing, or have someone they help out regularly in this manner. And several people that I know said "Fuck no!" or had a similar sentiment.

I even brought this up in one of my classes when the discussion had turned towards moral and social obligations, and the majority response was the same, that most people would not help out this person, some felt that it was improper to be asked that, or that it was ridiculous to be asked that, and some even felt it was wrong to be put in that spot. The ones that said they would, have a family member that is in a similar situation.

What bothers me, is not the people who said yes or the ones who think we should help out someone like this. But those that feel we are obligated to help simply because it's the right thing to do or that it's what we should do to prevent the person embarrassment. It brings up the point of what is too far to ask. I mean seriously, who really wants to be there when someone else is taking a piss or shit. Much less help them during or after the event. Just because someone asks us to do something that is considered an embarrassment to them, do we have to put ourselves in a situation most people do not even want to be in. After reading and posting about this, if this person asks me again, I'm going to tell him "No", and I don't think I'm going to sugar coat it, or even be sympathetic about it. I do not want to put someone on a fucking toilet, help them pull their pants off, or much less wipe their ass. And really believe most of the population doesn's want to either. And as I said before, why does this person not have a caregiver with him. I saw him 3-4 times this week and he does not have anyone to help him. So to expect or rely on the kindness of stranger is complete entitlement, seflishness, and arrogance on his part.

 

[Amaris]

I don't think everyone saying, "No," with a good reason, or helping to a point or with reservations should necessarily be criticized as insensitive toward the disabled or anything else. Note that most everyone who has said, "Yes," here has had experience in the area. Those without it might not know what a predicament they could find themselves in.

I should say I speak from some experience in this area. I have an 89 year-old father-in-law who gets around with a walker and is semi-independent. He is in assisted living, and my wife and I have been told many times about the right way and the wrong way to aid him when he needs it in public. Including the bathroom.
And yes, even with my father-in-law, it is a bit of an odd situation for both of us. I think it would have to be even more awkward for strangers. Sorry, I just think it would have to be.
By the way, my father-in-law is fiercely independent-minded, sharp, and proud. He wears an adult diaper, and to be blunt, he'd probably be extreme on the other side and go on himself before asking a stranger for help. In other words, all kinds of people have all different kinds of points of view about what is proper on both sides of this situation.

And, I still want to know how a student who apparently can't go to the bathroom by himself was left alone to fend for himself at a school (or on a campus, whichever it was).

I'm surprised by the number of people that said yes, I asked the same thing to several people in my classes or that I know at the school, almost all them said no, they wouldn't help. So I tend to think the same thing, that those who said yes have had experience in this type of thing, or have someone they help out regularly in this manner. And several people that I know said "Fuck no!" or had a similar sentiment.

I even brought this up in one of my classes when the discussion had turned towards moral and social obligations, and the majority response was the same, that most people would not help out this person, some felt that it was improper to be asked that, or that it was ridiculous to be asked that, and some even felt it was wrong to be put in that spot. The ones that said they would, have a family member that is in a similar situation.

What bothers me, is not the people who said yes or the ones who think we should help out someone like this. But those that feel we are obligated to help simply because it's the right thing to do or that it's what we should do to prevent the person embarrassment. It brings up the point of what is too far to ask. I mean seriously, who really wants to be there when someone else is taking a piss or shit. Much less help them during or after the event. Just because someone asks us to do something that is considered an embarrassment to them, do we have to put ourselves in a situation most people do not even want to be in. After reading and posting about this, if this person asks me again, I'm going to tell him "No", and I don't think I'm going to sugar coat it, or even be sympathetic about it. I do not want to put someone on a fucking toilet, help them pull their pants off, or much less wipe their ass. And really believe most of the population doesn's want to either. And as I said before, why does this person not have a caregiver with him. I saw him 3-4 times this week and he does not have anyone to help him. So to expect or rely on the kindness of stranger is complete entitlement, seflishness, and arrogance on his part.

For me, it comes down to what would happen if you were the one in the position of the person in need. Suppose your nurse/caregiver has gone off to do something, and you have a sudden need to go to the bathroom, and you know you can't get into a restroom by yourself. What do you do?

 

[ed629]

I don't think everyone saying, "No," with a good reason, or helping to a point or with reservations should necessarily be criticized as insensitive toward the disabled or anything else. Note that most everyone who has said, "Yes," here has had experience in the area. Those without it might not know what a predicament they could find themselves in.

I should say I speak from some experience in this area. I have an 89 year-old father-in-law who gets around with a walker and is semi-independent. He is in assisted living, and my wife and I have been told many times about the right way and the wrong way to aid him when he needs it in public. Including the bathroom.
And yes, even with my father-in-law, it is a bit of an odd situation for both of us. I think it would have to be even more awkward for strangers. Sorry, I just think it would have to be.
By the way, my father-in-law is fiercely independent-minded, sharp, and proud. He wears an adult diaper, and to be blunt, he'd probably be extreme on the other side and go on himself before asking a stranger for help. In other words, all kinds of people have all different kinds of points of view about what is proper on both sides of this situation.

And, I still want to know how a student who apparently can't go to the bathroom by himself was left alone to fend for himself at a school (or on a campus, whichever it was).

I'm surprised by the number of people that said yes, I asked the same thing to several people in my classes or that I know at the school, almost all them said no, they wouldn't help. So I tend to think the same thing, that those who said yes have had experience in this type of thing, or have someone they help out regularly in this manner. And several people that I know said "Fuck no!" or had a similar sentiment.

I even brought this up in one of my classes when the discussion had turned towards moral and social obligations, and the majority response was the same, that most people would not help out this person, some felt that it was improper to be asked that, or that it was ridiculous to be asked that, and some even felt it was wrong to be put in that spot. The ones that said they would, have a family member that is in a similar situation.

What bothers me, is not the people who said yes or the ones who think we should help out someone like this. But those that feel we are obligated to help simply because it's the right thing to do or that it's what we should do to prevent the person embarrassment. It brings up the point of what is too far to ask. I mean seriously, who really wants to be there when someone else is taking a piss or shit. Much less help them during or after the event. Just because someone asks us to do something that is considered an embarrassment to them, do we have to put ourselves in a situation most people do not even want to be in. After reading and posting about this, if this person asks me again, I'm going to tell him "No", and I don't think I'm going to sugar coat it, or even be sympathetic about it. I do not want to put someone on a fucking toilet, help them pull their pants off, or much less wipe their ass. And really believe most of the population doesn's want to either. And as I said before, why does this person not have a caregiver with him. I saw him 3-4 times this week and he does not have anyone to help him. So to expect or rely on the kindness of stranger is complete entitlement, seflishness, and arrogance on his part.

For me, it comes down to what would happen if you were the one in the position of the person in need. Suppose your nurse/caregiver has gone off to do something, and you have a sudden need to go to the bathroom, and you know you can't get into a restroom by yourself. What do you do?

This person does not have one with him, EVER, if I was the person in need, I wouldn't ask someone for that type of help. I'm the type of person that never asks for help, if I can't do it on my own I don't think someone should be put out or asked to do something that I wouldn't want to do. I have no problem holding the door, opening the stall door, but that's where it ends for me. And if someone thinks I'm an ass, a coward or anything else, then I can't change their mind. But there are certain lines or boundaries that I will not put myself past only because some people may think or feel it's the moral thing, or socially obligatory thing to do. If he had asked me for help with a jacket, or help him get something to eat from the cafe, I would, but what he asked me, I would not do. Not only because it's repulsive to me, I simply don't want to it or will I do it.

 

[trampledamage]

Out of curiosity - do you actually know what help he needed? Was he specific? Or could it just have been that, I don't know, the wheelchair access toilet was being used and he needed help opening the stall door?

I can't believe a school boy who cannot ever manage the toilet process by himself would be left without an aide for every day.

 

[Maestro]

I would accept your analysis of the situation and respect your discomfort, ed, because at least you aren't questioning the mind of the person asking you, and being unwilling to help because "them retards need their own help," or some such malarky.

 

[Franklin]

For me, it comes down to what would happen if you were the one in the position of the person in need. Suppose your nurse/caregiver has gone off to do something, and you have a sudden need to go to the bathroom, and you know you can't get into a restroom by yourself. What do you do?

Not to be picking on you specifically, J. Allen, but this is an example of how so many of us are creating a perfect storm scenario, here. And it's almost becoming a game of oneupsmanship. What if this? And, what if that? What if he had no arms? What if he only had to pee? What if he had to poop? What if he needed to be wiped? What if he messed on himself in the bathroom? What if he messed on you while helping him? What if it were you in that situation and you had to go?

I think the point some of us are making is that for whatever reason, there comes a point where a boundary is reached that we can't or won't cross. That some of us reach our limit, or believe we've done all we should do before someone else does not necessarily mean we are in a morally inferior position.

I respect the position of those who would do more than me. I admire the selflessness and their willingness to take a risk -- because that's what the untrained person is doing, after all. But, I also respect the positions of those with valid reasons for doing less. The point is, there is no one correct answer, here. There is no moral high ground.

If a person walked up to another person and said, "I'm having a heart attack, please get help," and the person refused to find help, that is anti-social and immoral. In comparison, being uncomfortable about saying yes to aiding a stranger on the toilet is not, to me.

 

[ed629]

Out of curiosity - do you actually know what help he needed? Was he specific? Or could it just have been that, I don't know, the wheelchair access toilet was being used and he needed help opening the stall door?

I can't believe a school boy who cannot ever manage the toilet process by himself would be left without an aide for every day.

I've seen him at the school almost everyday I am there, and he never has and aide with him. And he cannot move his arms or legs, other than to control his chair. He needs help drinking, opening doors (he can't press the assist door button), or anything else that requires him to use his arms for other than controlling his chair. There are several stalls for the disabled at this school, ramps, assist doors, etc. And the amount of time the person who helped him was gone too.

I would accept your analysis of the situation and respect your discomfort, ed, because at least you aren't questioning the mind of the person asking you, and being unwilling to help because "them retards need their own help," or some such malarky.

Thank you for that, I believe you posted that you have a disablity yourself, and if you asked me for help opening a door, getting some food, carrying books, helping with a jacket, I would be more than happy to help out and have done so. I just cannot bring myself to do something that is so uncomfortable to me, that I would not ask for someone else to do. Of even if I saw someone eating, and needed help wiping off their mouth/chin I would be a little uneasy about but would probably do it.

And no, I never thought anything like he's a "retard", but I still wonder why he does not have a caregiver or assistant with him. He obviously has the mental capacity to attend a university, so he can understand why people would be unwilling to help. But I still cannot get over the extreme discomfort, or even disgust I would feel it such a situation. I would not or could not ask another person to help with such a thing. In fact, I would rather leave and soil myself than to ask for such a thing, I would be less embarrassed to do that than to ask someone else to help me out that way. And it does seem people who say yes feel we who would say no are the ones who are wrong.

 

[Maestro]

I don't actually have a disability myself. My best friend passed away from Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy in 1996.

 

[Ghost07]

For me, it comes down to what would happen if you were the one in the position of the person in need. Suppose your nurse/caregiver has gone off to do something, and you have a sudden need to go to the bathroom, and you know you can't get into a restroom by yourself. What do you do?

Not to be picking on you specifically, J. Allen, but this is an example of how so many of us are creating a perfect storm scenario, here. And it's almost becoming a game of oneupsmanship. What if this? And, what if that? What if he had no arms? What if he only had to pee? What if he had to poop? What if he needed to be wiped? What if he messed on himself in the bathroom? What if he messed on you while helping him? What if it were you in that situation and you had to go?

I think the point some of us are making is that for whatever reason, there comes a point where a boundary is reached that we can't or won't cross. That some of us reach our limit, or believe we've done all we should do before someone else does not necessarily mean we are in a morally inferior position.

I respect the position of those who would do more than me. I admire the selflessness and their willingness to take a risk -- because that's what the untrained person is doing, after all. But, I also respect the positions of those with valid reasons for doing less. The point is, there is no one correct answer, here. There is no moral high ground.

If a person walked up to another person and said, "I'm having a heart attack, please get help," and the person refused to find help, that is anti-social and immoral. In comparison, being uncomfortable about saying yes to aiding a stranger on the toilet is not, to me.

Here's a couple what ifs you never mentioned...What if you asked him if he could wait long enough for you to find him qualified help for his needs? What if you asked him how much help he needed? What if you asked him why is there no Aide with you?

Could it be he got lost and couldn't FIND the bathroom or the Nurse's Office or wherever they stash the Aides at this school? What kind of school is it...High School? College? A high school should have a Nurse's office somewhere, and don't Colleges have something equivilant?

 

[MANT!]

I'm not going to judge anyone who says yes or no..

Note that most everyone who has said, "Yes," here has had experience in the area. Those without it might not know what a predicament they could find themselves in.

As to the situtation I described above...

First, I had some training in the military (Combat "Buddy" Training they called it at the time) regarding how to move people who were hurt in combat situtations, So I do know how to lift and move people. I have moved disabled relatives and some injured friends and assisted them in tough situations.

2nd, even though I could barely speak some Portuguese, I knew the man required assistance just by his calls...and with me, the only man in sight, I knew he was asking for me to help...


3rd, even though I was a stranger in a strange land, (Brazil) I felt that there simply was no excuse for me not to help him...and I got a bit of satisfaction thinking about his stories to his relatives and friends about the kind American (Homem amável dos Estados Unidos) who helped him..And how I'd represented my country well...

 

[Amaris]

This person does not have one with him, EVER, if I was the person in need, I wouldn't ask someone for that type of help. I'm the type of person that never asks for help, if I can't do it on my own I don't think someone should be put out or asked to do something that I wouldn't want to do. I have no problem holding the door, opening the stall door, but that's where it ends for me. And if someone thinks I'm an ass, a coward or anything else, then I can't change their mind. But there are certain lines or boundaries that I will not put myself past only because some people may think or feel it's the moral thing, or socially obligatory thing to do. If he had asked me for help with a jacket, or help him get something to eat from the cafe, I would, but what he asked me, I would not do. Not only because it's repulsive to me, I simply don't want to it or will I do it.

So you would piss on yourself instead of ask for help?

Not to be picking on you specifically, J. Allen, but this is an example of how so many of us are creating a perfect storm scenario, here. And it's almost becoming a game of oneupsmanship. What if this? And, what if that? What if he had no arms? What if he only had to pee? What if he had to poop? What if he needed to be wiped? What if he messed on himself in the bathroom? What if he messed on you while helping him? What if it were you in that situation and you had to go?

I think the point some of us are making is that for whatever reason, there comes a point where a boundary is reached that we can't or won't cross. That some of us reach our limit, or believe we've done all we should do before someone else does not necessarily mean we are in a morally inferior position.

I respect the position of those who would do more than me. I admire the selflessness and their willingness to take a risk -- because that's what the untrained person is doing, after all. But, I also respect the positions of those with valid reasons for doing less. The point is, there is no one correct answer, here. There is no moral high ground.

If a person walked up to another person and said, "I'm having a heart attack, please get help," and the person refused to find help, that is anti-social and immoral. In comparison, being uncomfortable about saying yes to aiding a stranger on the toilet is not, to me.

It's not a perfect storm situation. I made that point for two reasons:

1] I believe in putting myself in someone else's shoes. I work to understand how they feel when they have to do these things, when they have to ask for help. I would hope that should I find myself in such a situation and needing assistance, that someone would help me.

and...

2] Because I have helped a person whose nurse went off to take care of some kind of business, he needed to use the restroom urgently, and so I helped him into the stall.


I'm not saying I'm morally superior to anyone else. I don't care if people think I am or think that I think I am. I'm going to help someone in that situation. For me, it's basic humanity.

 

[ed629]

This person does not have one with him, EVER, if I was the person in need, I wouldn't ask someone for that type of help. I'm the type of person that never asks for help, if I can't do it on my own I don't think someone should be put out or asked to do something that I wouldn't want to do. I have no problem holding the door, opening the stall door, but that's where it ends for me. And if someone thinks I'm an ass, a coward or anything else, then I can't change their mind. But there are certain lines or boundaries that I will not put myself past only because some people may think or feel it's the moral thing, or socially obligatory thing to do. If he had asked me for help with a jacket, or help him get something to eat from the cafe, I would, but what he asked me, I would not do. Not only because it's repulsive to me, I simply don't want to it or will I do it.

So you would piss on yourself instead of ask for help?

Yes I would, I don't think anyone who is a stranger should be put in such a situation. If I were to go somewhere without considering that such a thing could happen I would not ask much less expect a person to help with such a thing or even make them uncomfortable. If you don't believe me, then don't believe me. The poster who posted about oneupmanship was correct, it seems like people are trying to be better than others. Who would really want to deal with another person's piss or shit? I don't, and never will, does than make me a bad person, no it doesn't. It only makes me human, along with anyone else who wouldn't help.

A few months ago, I strained my back severely, and went to school anyway. I had my backpack with me, with a laptop, 2 heavy books, 2 notebooks and a waterbottle. My class got out and I had to walk 1/3 of a mile to my car. I never once considered asking for help. Why? Because I made a choice and why was it someone else's obligation to help me out. It took me 20 minutes to make a walk that I could normally do in about 5-6 minutes. I even had a few people ask me if I was ok, and 1 offered to help. I told him no thanks, it was my choice to go, my choice to put myself in that situation and there was no reason for someone to help me because of that. I should of stayed home, and I knew it. I made a choice and it was mine to make, and it was my responsibility to deal with that choice.

 

[Sector 7]

ed629, the more of your posts I read, the more I think you are searching for ways to justify your actions. You keep pointing out that you have not seen an aide with him, so why should you have to help, etc., etc. Then it advanced to they should take care of themselves or have someone who is paid to help, why should anyone have to help, etc.

At some point, human beings should recognize that the other person is also a human being, deserving of respect, care and dignity. My faith teaches me to go the extra mile, put myself in their shoes, give sacrificially to help others and more. Since I do care about others more than myself, I can help someone less fortunate.

Unfortunately, just because someone's school is full of selfish, "me first, screw you" punks who would never think of helping someone else does not mean they are right. It just means they are selfish little b*stards who would completely change their minds if the situation were reversed.