For starters, she seemed to work well with other main characters, including Wesley, and was a good contributor, so it's possible that it would have happened naturally.
Would TNG Have Worked Without Picard?
- Thread starter Riley
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For starters, she seemed to work well with other main characters, including Wesley, and was a good contributor, so it's possible that it would have happened naturally.
Agreed. I don't think she'd have stayed on and Data would have become Riker's XO instead.
Insurrection should have ended with the wedding, and Riker taking his place on the Titan, and Data FINALLY getting the promotion he should have had 12 years earlier. Or maybe Riker takes over the Enterprise, while Picard stays on Baku with his love interest, don't recall her name. And lives happily ever after, and we do mean EVER after.
As for Star Trek X, it should have been set on DS9, with Voyager docked there. So we see an epic crossover, and Harry is granted the promotion he deserves. The Eternal Ensign idiocy is properly silenced, before it becomes so self sustaining that Harry's post-Voyager fate can literally never be revealed.
As for Star Trek X, it should have been set on DS9, with Voyager docked there. So we see an epic crossover, and Harry is granted the promotion he deserves. The Eternal Ensign idiocy is properly silenced, before it becomes so self sustaining that Harry's post-Voyager fate can literally never be revealed.
TNG didn't really take off until after Gene died, if you notice that's when we started to get more character based episodes, rather than the plots being focused on solving the problem of the day.
Several of the actors had mentioned that they had approached gene about expanding their characters but he was pretty set on having the "problem of the day" format.
I believe this happened around season three which would have been around the time Gene passed. That's really when the series took off and the characters became more relatable and endearing to viewers, where Picard became less rigid, Riker became less awkward, and actually earned more respect after his handling of Wolf 359 etc...
Data became more, well, human...Worf showed other emotions and became a vehicle for comedy, Geordi became the nerd/geek that was so beloved and endearing...Counselor Cleavage (Troi) got less melodramatic, Crusher got to explore ethics and principle far more...
So yeah seasons one and two, when going back, you definitely see a paradigm shift from season three onwards.
Several of the actors had mentioned that they had approached gene about expanding their characters but he was pretty set on having the "problem of the day" format.
I believe this happened around season three which would have been around the time Gene passed. That's really when the series took off and the characters became more relatable and endearing to viewers, where Picard became less rigid, Riker became less awkward, and actually earned more respect after his handling of Wolf 359 etc...
Data became more, well, human...Worf showed other emotions and became a vehicle for comedy, Geordi became the nerd/geek that was so beloved and endearing...Counselor Cleavage (Troi) got less melodramatic, Crusher got to explore ethics and principle far more...
So yeah seasons one and two, when going back, you definitely see a paradigm shift from season three onwards.
The show was finding its feet before then. S1 seemed to have a lot of trying to recreate the vibe of TOS. S2 had TNG starting to go its own way.
Yes, thx for the correction..i think what happened was that (unfortunate in some ways) gene was relegated to an advisory/consulting role...he really had no more power per se in the day to day workings of the show, Rick Berman etc..kind of took over at that point...and that is when we saw these changes, for the better,
I like seasons three and four the best...
Season 4 in particular really gave us the Picard we know with episodes like 'Family" , "Q-pid", "The Drumhead" and so on...the onion was finally peeled in regards to Picard
Well when you think about it, the universal appeal of any show/movie etc...ultimately comes back to the characters. I think where the shift happened was when there was a plan of action and some of the characters might have expressed objection to the means or methods....that created the dramatic tension that was handled so well...
great example in a later season was "I, Borg" where Geordie starts to question their intent, and Picard, still feeling his trauma, berates him and suggests that he stop being so emotionally involved..and then as we know, Guinan convinces Picard to put aside his prejudice...
I suspect in earlier seasons they might have not explored that dynamic and focused on "We have a job to do, let's do it..."
great example in a later season was "I, Borg" where Geordie starts to question their intent, and Picard, still feeling his trauma, berates him and suggests that he stop being so emotionally involved..and then as we know, Guinan convinces Picard to put aside his prejudice...
I suspect in earlier seasons they might have not explored that dynamic and focused on "We have a job to do, let's do it..."
Every character was far more interesting in seasons one and two, especially Riker. "The Best of Both Worlds" marked the end of his character's development. He should have been killed off and replaced with Thomas Riker in season four.
S1 and S2 are my favorites in terms of storytelling - I find them the most enjoyable to watch. I love the 'standalone episode' format, which made each episode unique and memorable for me. Recently, I noticed that while compiling a list of episodes to watch with my father, I included almost every episode from S1 and S2, but fewer from later seasons. While later seasons produced strong character-driven episodes like Data's Day or Ethics , many others lacked the depth and impact of the first two seasons.
To answer the topic's question - I agree, but I think this is partly because of the shared loss that unites the family, which would have created a completely different tone for the series.
To answer the topic's question - I agree, but I think this is partly because of the shared loss that unites the family, which would have created a completely different tone for the series.
Another good idea!
Picard wouldn't be happy on a planet of luddites like that, he needs to constantly explore or at least learn.
Also DS9/VOY got a fraction of TNG's ratings so involving them in a film was just a non starter. It's why Paramount didn't want INS to be a Dominion War movie, the bulk of the TNG movie audience wasn't watching DS9 and would have no idea what was going on.
Better than taking a huge, messy, smelly crap on TNG, which Nemesis did.
And that is why they are honestly my favorite seasons, and why in my attempted rewatch, I didn't make it through season 4.
I like continuity, but TNG S1 was starting to do that, with them being investigated, and then leading into conspiracy, and the foreshadowing in the neutral zone. it was choosing the character based stuff over the sci-fi fun-of-the-week action-adventure stuff, that everyone else loved, but bores me to tears. i can rewatch the fun stuff, but after you know the ending of a preachy morality play, and know how everything turns out, its a bit of a slog to watch it a second time. Later TNG might have "great" episodes but after the first watch, i have never felt the need to return to them.
Interesting perspectives to be sure. Personally, I can barely tolerate seasons 1 and 2. While some appreciate the subjects and cast. To me they were way too stiff and not as endearing as they became once the subsequent actors were allowed to stretch their dramatic legs.
Had they maintained the same "stiffness" that we saw in season one and two, I'm not sure the series would have survived. Ultimately it is the characters that endear themselves to audiences, and the characters that people identify with, they Love them and Love to hate them. And characters evolve, change, and mature and that makes them so compelling.
Other examples from other shows where there was definite character evolvement is shows like M*A*S*H, where Hawkeye (and most of the cast) was completely different from season one to the last season. It's these things that make them compelling and interesting.
If Worf was still spouting: "Captain, I recommend we go to battle!" in season three, I think it would have worn very thin... It was good to see the human sides of Picard "Family", "Lessons", "Suddenly Human"etc..
Riker falling in love with a genderless humanoid, Geordi showing his inept nerdiness with women...Worf adopting human traits and making them co-exist with human traits...good stuff
Had they maintained the same "stiffness" that we saw in season one and two, I'm not sure the series would have survived. Ultimately it is the characters that endear themselves to audiences, and the characters that people identify with, they Love them and Love to hate them. And characters evolve, change, and mature and that makes them so compelling.
Other examples from other shows where there was definite character evolvement is shows like M*A*S*H, where Hawkeye (and most of the cast) was completely different from season one to the last season. It's these things that make them compelling and interesting.
If Worf was still spouting: "Captain, I recommend we go to battle!" in season three, I think it would have worn very thin... It was good to see the human sides of Picard "Family", "Lessons", "Suddenly Human"etc..
Riker falling in love with a genderless humanoid, Geordi showing his inept nerdiness with women...Worf adopting human traits and making them co-exist with human traits...good stuff
Even in season 2 there were positive format changes, with season 3 just polishing up what was left. The character drama stuff also increased, though there felt more like a balance. Later seasons would get too character-focus as well as soapbox preachy. Season 5 definitely started that trend, which also had the highest ratings, but that just meant a lot of people loved it at the time. Cue Fad Gadget's song "Swallow It", but when you have highly-rated garbage episodes like "Disaster" getting so many character traits wrong or forgotten solely for the sake of teh drama, combined with skipping out on basic science 101 that the super-ishy cooties-laden season 1 there somehow got right time and time again, despite some faltering plotlines... Even some friends and family at the time that they preferred the older seasons in reruns because they actually had adventure and action stuff. A quick tangent about science accuracy: Suspension of disbelief is inevitable no matter what the show is (even "reality shows"), but that only goes so far. We know the ship and FTL travel and teleportation and replicators are fantasy. Other elements within this framework clearly make up for it and keep us invested or else we'd have balked from day zero zero one. It's why one can be a fan of "Space 1999" where, beyond the outer level premise that we know is impossible, everything despite that holds up and compensates.
Gene also died during early season 5. The Lwaxana/Alexander episode is just about 4th wall when you think into it too much.
Data becoming human... well, originally he was more like a Pinocchio trope and not just a robot... depending on episode... The ones where he feels he's trying to emulate humanity and failing, instead of engaging in the following BASIC program, are so much truer to the idea of Data (and... Lore...):
10 PRINT "I am an android"
20 GOTO 10
RUN
Worf: He also used to be the overused punching bag trope because, if Worf gets the snot beaten out of him, what chance do the softer spongy humans have apart from "zilch"? That said, "Datalore" is a **** episode on paper but, damn, individual set-piece scenes more than make up for it. The bit where Worf is pummelled to show off how butch Lore is is jaw-droppingly creepy, for the right reasons, every single time. But who wants to rewatch the same scene by hitting the rewind button then play every 20 seconds and not everyone had VCRs, so the trope remained in use where he'd continue to get pummeled in umpteen episodes, but I digress.
What's wrong with Geordi, who was always a bit of a nerd and even in season 1 he was ending up in Engineering more often...?
Crusher was used too often a popsicle stick cipher for inane dialogue, especially for the overly-preachy "Ethics". Be glad she wasn't in the episode "The Hunted" where Worf got her lines, which seems odd as he usually spouts "it is a good day to die" and other depressing one-liners that I'm sure the DSM-V revised edition has an answer for and all that. I think Data may have gotten some Crusherific lines too...
The best of both worlds between character and plot and structure were definitely seasons 3 and 4, though some inkling could be felt in some season 2 episodes.
The later seasons had more viewers but they did indeed lack the depth and oversimplified way too much. With a few exceptions, even "The Masterpiece Society" - a cynical redo of "Pen Pals" in ways, has one or two of the best Geordi scenes ever, which also remembered that his VISOR has traits he uses on a regular basis. Except for "Disaster", a real piece of Star Drek but I digress...
S3 and S4 for me, but I love S1 and S2 way more than S5-7 for the most part as they do feel more like exploration of the cosmos and civilizations, with less inane navel-gazing that even eschewed the basic science that the earlier seasons strived to get right. There's that "Ethics" episode reference again, as well as "Disaster", among others... "Data's Day" contrived a little to get Data not to Cindybradytattle to the Captain the atypical events he was witness to with being asked for the codes (Data is literal, but THAT literal? The golden rule is always chain of command and to let the commander know anything that differs, what with "A Matter of Honor" confirming that precedent and all, if not earlier), but keep watching and the payoff at the end makes up for it and then some.
Correlation not being causation prevailing, VOY quickly becoming TNG-Lite despite its original premise of factions forced to work together feels like whiplash thanks to DS9 losing viewers due to its serialized style...
True for multiple reasons and TNG was right to be influenced by TOS stories rather than just redoing them*, but even TOS had androids all over the place. And more often than not came from Andromeda with or without their makers. I still love "Home Soil" for being the most sci-fi episode TNG could be... the only difference is, the glowing crystal thing felt like a naturally occurring creature whereas androids and holograms were obviously programmed constructs. The EMH stories involving rights were just a derivative of Data's and at least Data's felt more organic in exploration. If not way too repetitive since "offspring" and "quality of life" just reek "measure of a man" all over again and I would never want to compare those to TOS...
* "The Naked Now" = lame redo
* Inner Light = their innovation to re-mold elements "The Paradise Syndrome" but in a new way that doesn't feel like an overt copy
etc
I think Paramount just wanted their own TNG to be the anchor for UPN and get 15-20 mil viewers a night. Didn't work out that way though. There was less pressure on DS9 due to it being in syndication.
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